Panzermann Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 The security concerns, honestly, are a pretty much separate issue and are NATO issue. EU is primarily economic block and in any case, with the best of deals, UK would still be outside EU so the cooperation would have to be lead in a more complicated fashion. And since the intel cooperation is covering you as well - it is in your interest to continue with it regardless on the Brexit form, esp. as it has very little to do with Brexit. Well there is Europol for EU wide police cooperation. Frontex for border controls, the fingerprint database, ENISA (IT sec) etc et of which the UK is all leaving behind. So there is certainly a reduction in capability for Brtish security organs and new agreements will have to be made for exchange of information. Otherwise the UK is going to be pretty blind to what is going on on the continent. Also with being no longer part of the european arrest warrant a criminal could just step over the border into free Ireland and stick out his tongue to the PSNI constables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Here is a prediction, and im going to stick my neck out, but what the hell. It will be a hard Brexit, despite neither side actually want's one. As for why, well thats complex, but that we cant actually thrash out a common ground we all agree on here, and politicians by their nature being 2 strikes down to begin with, is one illustration why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahawk Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 The basic problem is that the EU does not have much leeway. The 4 pillars were agreed as basic principals when the Uk was part of the EU. Now the UK leaves and expects the EU to overturn the decision which they were a part off. Kind like a golf club whose members decide to write into the rules of membership that only members can play on the golf course. But then one member decides to leave because the membership fee is too high and demands to continue playing on the course regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Actually its more like the honorable member still wants to use the club toilet's, but cant, unless he pays 40 years worth of fees in advance. Ok, so analogies can only carry you so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Tucan Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 For that it would be more like he still wants to sell his hot dogs, without paying and allowing the club members a shortcut through his access road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) sort of PM, sort of Brexit, sort of... the beeb has put it on yootoob I see. found it in the recommendations to the Jonanathan Pie clip. funny that Cleese has the same assessemtn of how the brexit campaign was run as I do. Idiotic retarded "arguments" on both sides instead of a discussion of the issue. I can totally understand him moving to Nevis. I hope he has a sturdy house for huricane season. Edited July 16, 2018 by Panzermann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanhoe Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 http://www.theredcell.co.uk/uploads/9/6/4/0/96409902/latitude_and_wrongitude-.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992Brexit campaign group Vote Leave has been fined £61,000 and referred to the police after an Electoral Commission probe said it broke electoral law.The investigation found "significant evidence of joint working" between the group and another organisation - BeLeave - leading to it exceeding its spending limit by almost £500,000.Vote Leave also returned an "incomplete and inaccurate spending report", with almost £234,501 reported incorrectly, and invoices missing for £12,849.99 of spending, the watchdog said.BeLeave founder Darren Grimes has also been fined and referred to the police for breaking the group's spending limit by more than £665,000 and wrongly reporting the spending as his own.Veterans for Britain were also found to have inaccurately reported a donation it received from Vote Leave and has been fined £250.'Refused to cooperate'Bob Posner, from the Electoral Commission, said: "The Electoral Commission has followed the evidence and conducted a thorough investigation into spending and campaigning carried out by Vote Leave and BeLeave."We found substantial evidence that the two groups worked to a common plan, did not declare their joint working and did not adhere to the legal spending limits. These are serious breaches of the laws put in place by Parliament to ensure fairness and transparency at elections and referendums."He added: "Vote Leave has resisted our investigation from the start, including contesting our right as the statutory regulator to open the investigation. It has refused to cooperate, refused our requests to put forward a representative for interview, and forced us to use our legal powers to compel it to provide evidence."Nevertheless, the evidence we have found is clear and substantial, and can now be seen in our report."Vote Leave was the officially designated campaign group for Leave in the UK's referendum in 2016 into whether or not the UK should stay in the European Union.The result of the referendum was 51.9% for Leave and 48.1% for Remain. The UK is due to officially leave the European Union at 23:00 GMT on 29 March, 2019. 'Motivated by political agenda'A Vote Leave spokesman said: "The Electoral Commission's report contains a number of false accusations and incorrect assertions that are wholly inaccurate and do not stand up to scrutiny."It is astonishing that nobody from Vote Leave has been interviewed by the commission in the production of this report, nor indeed at any point in the past two years. Yet the commission has interviewed the so-called 'whistleblowers' who have no knowledge of how Vote Leave operated and whose credibility has been seriously called into question."Vote Leave has provided evidence to the Electoral Commission proving there was no wrongdoing. And yet despite clear evidence of wrongdoing by the Remain campaign, the commission has chosen to ignore this and refused to launch an investigation."All this suggests that the supposedly impartial commission is motivated by a political agenda rather than uncovering the facts."The commission has failed to follow due process, and in doing so has based its conclusions on unfounded claims and conspiracy theories."We will consider the options available to us, but are confident that these findings will be overturned." Edited July 17, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 So, they are goig to declare bancruptcy and dissolve without paying anything? this day in brexit: https://brexitcentral.com/today/brexit-news-thursday-19-july/ Boris Johnson says it is ‘not too late to save Brexit’ as he describes PM’s Chequers plan as a ‘miserable, permanent limbo’Boris Johnson has savaged Theresa May’s “miserable” blueprint for leaving the EU, telling MPs it is “not too late to save Brexit”. In an explosive resignation statement, the former foreign secretary praised the prime minister’s “courage” and “resilience”, but said the government had “dithered” and allowed a “fog of self-doubt” to descend… In his 12-minute speech Mr Johnson advocated a change of policy rather than a change of leader, telling the Commons: “If the PM can fix that vision once again before us then I believe she can deliver a great Brexit for Britain.” … Mr Johnson made the case for Mrs May returning to her original Brexit red lines, saying: “It is not too late to save Brexit. “We have time in these negotiations. We have changed tack once and we can change again. The problem is not that we have failed to make the case for a free trade agreement of the kind spelt out at Lancaster House. We haven’t even tried. We must try now because we will not get another chance to do it right.” – Sky News O RLY? Johnson only now finds out that HM gov is dysfunctional and has no plan one way or the other? And there have been several chances to do it right, Boris. All missed. Theresa May tells ministers to start giving out No-Deal Brexit advice…Theresa May has revealed ministers are about to start issuing a raft of advice for Britain to go it alone in a bid to appease revolting Brexiteers. The PM pledged to visibly step up no deal preparations, starting next month with the release of 70 different technical notices to businesses and individuals… Going public on the Government’s no deal plans – long called-for by Leave campaigners – marks a significant sea change in its tactics. Until now, the Treasury Business Department have insisted on keeping a lid on no deal work so as not to scare companies into an exodus… In a bid to harden up her negotiating stand, Mrs May was also challenged by former DexEU minister Steve Baker – who resigned last week – to talk up the no deal planning to show Brussels she is serious. Mrs May responded to call him “absolutely right”, adding: “The EU need to be in no doubt that we are making those preparations and ensuring that, should that be the outcome, we are prepared.” – The Sun Well, procrastinated the issue long enough so that only the hard brexit is left. btw.. already hired and trained any new border guards? Excisemen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 (edited) Some of us didnt vote for this dog and pony show please remember. Edited July 19, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Some of us didnt vote for this dog and pony show please remember. Yes of course.My point being, even with the brexit now being executed, they have no plan and do not know what they want to do. They are still quarreling what all this means, while on the clock. The supposed winners of the Brexit vote are obviously unable to make something out of winning the vote. And fail to take chances that are offered. e.g., Trump tries to throw a lifeline, but seemingly not recognized as one by May and her crew. Unable to do something with it. No wonder more and more jump off, because of this dysfunction. The EUcracy will happily provide a hard as can be Brexit to take revenge for the disloyalty and decades of badmouthing and to make an example out of the UK in order to encourage Poland, Hungary or Italy (and others) to shut up and stay in line. Not that I approve of these measures, but that is what the EU will do imho. And a disorganised HM government makes it very easy for the lords of the EU to do so. btw, have the promised 350 millions for the NHS been found in the meantime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssnake Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 btw, have the promised 350 millions for the NHS been found in the meantime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marek Tucan Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Tbh I shudder to think what a deal offered by Trump would look like given his outlook on trading partners as enemies and weaker partners as someone to bail out on... And also TBH, it would seem that to get as hard Brexit as possible EU needs to do exactly nothing. I mean that is the "no effort" option... And UK did not do too good job at trying to make any EU country stand for it ( do not forget all have a vote in this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Tbh I shudder to think what a deal offered by Trump would look like given his outlook on trading partners as enemies and weaker partners as someone to bail out on... And also TBH, it would seem that to get as hard Brexit as possible EU needs to do exactly nothing. I mean that is the "no effort" option... And UK did not do too good job at trying to make any EU country stand for it ( do not forget all have a vote in this).Nevermind the fact that some EU countries will benefit from a hard Brexit just from an economic stand point. All those UK exports to the EU will be taken over by other member states especially agricultural produce, and lets not forget the financial sector where,trust me I know, the bidding for relocation is going strong. It mght not be in the best interest of the UK and the EU as whole to have a hard Brexit but since the EU is not a single entity but a collection of Nations, hard Brexit is a given. What the British failed to coprehend, and EU bueraucrats tried to convey but failed miserably ( they actaully had the oposit effect as their warnings were concieved as threats by the British) is that as individual states there are countries in the EU who would prefer as hard a Brexit as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 And what the EU does not realise, and would seem to have hit upon hard brexit as a good negotiating technique, is that the right wing of the Conservative party want a hard Brexit for ideological purposes. And the PM is fighting a losing rearguard action against it. Every time they bleat about how something is not a good position, they are just tightening the noose around their neck. Do they actually think they are going to get a better deal from Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn, because I can tell you, they will be disappointed. Like I said before, we will get a hard Brexit most like, despite both sides not actually wanting one. And whilst there is enough posturing going on here to fill out an episode of Celebrity Big Brother, neither side is going to remotely benefit from it. The Italians are screaming blue murder at the moment because they can see all their wine and food produce no longer selling in the UK. But who in Brussels is listening? Who frankly cares, as long as they encourage nobody else to leave. Thats all that is going through their minds at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 What people fail to understand is that a hard Brexit offers risks for some but great economic opportunities for others and that they are both called EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 You should tell the Italians that. They will be thrilled.https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/989695/brexit-news-italy-agriculture-no-deal-brexit-eu-budget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Ras Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 TBH, it would seem that to get as hard Brexit as possible EU needs to do exactly nothing. I mean that is the "no effort" option...This is exactly the type of effort the EU excels at... Soren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Im not sure why the EU commision hate's the British Government so much. They must surely recognise kindred spirits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soren Ras Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 the people that run it now would rather completely fail rather than surrender their idea of what the EU should be. Bingo. Soren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) You should tell the Italians that. They will be thrilled.https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/989695/brexit-news-italy-agriculture-no-deal-brexit-eu-budgetAnd the Bulgarian and Slovakian entities which will pick up the slack of UK agricultural imports to the EU should care because? The UK wanted out because of the percieved infringment on state rights and now that the EU acts like a powerless entity who can not agree on anything (what a surprise) want the EU to impose its will on member states? There are countries in the EU that will benefit from a hard Brexit and they can achieve it by doing exactly nothing. They are not advertising it but they sure are preparing to benefit from it. 2.5% of all Bulgarian exports are to the UK. Dairy products are 4.5% of their total exports. Thats only dairy products, never mind other food stuffs. From their point of view its an opportinity, not a risk. For the Italian wine producers its a huge risk, but they are not Italians. EU is not a single country with a central government to decide everything. My uncle is a big pork farmer, he mainly exports to the EU, he is salivating at the chance of increasing his share at the expense of UK exporters who exported 48.000 tons as of last Month to the EU. If that comes at the cost of Italian wine producers, well thats life. Edited July 20, 2018 by Mistral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 (edited) You should tell the Italians that. They will be thrilled.https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/989695/brexit-news-italy-agriculture-no-deal-brexit-eu-budgetAnd the Bulgarian and Slovakian entities which will pick up the slack of UK agricultural imports to the EU should care because? The UK wanted out because of the percieved infringment on state rights and now that the EU acts like a powerless entity who can not agree on anything (what a surprise) want the EU to impose its will on member states? There are countries in the EU that will benefit from a hard Brexit and they can achieve it by doing exactly nothing. They are not advertising it but they sure are preparing to benefit from it.2.5% of all Bulgarian exports are to the UK. Dairy products are 4.5% of their total exports. Thats only dairy products, never mind other food stuffs. From their point of view its an opportinity, not a risk. For the Italian wine producers its a huge risk, but they are not Italians. EU is not a single country with a central government to decide everything. My uncle is a big pork farmer, he mainly exports to the EU, he is salivating at the chance of increasing his share at the expense of UK exporters who exported 48.000 tons as of last Month to the EU. If that comes at the cost of Italian wine producers, well thats life. So lets look at it like this. The Italians are aggrieved that they can no longer export to the UK. They hold the EU responsible. They decide to have a referendum, which to my mind with the Government they have cannot be excluded as a possiblity. Assuming a knock on effect of this country cant export to that country, what is precisely to stop the possiblity of the entire EU being unzipped in this manner? My fathers best friend lives in portugal right now. He says the locals are all saying the British had the right idea and they ought to do the same. Personally I think they are wrong, but that is not the same as saying the EU is going to be able to compensate for the funds or the market they are losing, particularly among those countries that are already seeing all their industry and jobs zip off to Germany due to the common market, which is essentially what happened to the UK and Italy. Its very easy to sneer at those Italians and say 'so what'. This is precisely the attitude that led people in the UK to vote the way they did. Is anyone taking any notes? Because it sure doesnt look like it to me. Edited July 21, 2018 by Stuart Galbraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 As I've stated before, the EU is acting on the requirements resulting from the form of its organization based upon member states which have a largely equal say in its affairs. The term of a "union" is really just an expression of hopeful ambition for a future Eurostate; "confederation" would have been much more apt, but probably too realistic to be adopted by idealistic/nefarious promoters of an ever-closer union, depending upon your personal view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzermann Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Im not sure why the EU commision hate's the British Government so much. They must surely recognise kindred spirits. Nothing is bigger than the hate between siblings, because they are too similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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