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Corinthian

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To be fair to Honda, its not clear that the closure has anything to do with Brexit. It would seem to have more to do with the really great trade deal the EU negotiated with Japan, which would make assembling cars actually inside Europe somewhat irrelevant.

 

We are looking at losing something like 17000 jobs when you factor in the supply chain. Horrible timing.

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Well if Brexit wasn't happening, the plant would still be in the EU, so not sure if its correct to say that. In any case, it looks like they really appreciated the plant, which is moving in heart, sad to see it come to this.

Edited by JasonJ
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No thats not correct. If we maintain a trade deal with the EU (which looks as if it may still be on the cards, just) then Honda would be jumping the gun. They have been here 30 years, they wouldnt gamble like that on a site they have invested so much in.

 

I can go down Avonmouth and see them loading lots of Japanese cars on the ship that we make here, and ship them direct to Europe and elsewhere. If Honda is having economic difficulties (and it seems they are) it probably makes more sense to them to shut the UK plant and ship direct to wherever they need them. I think the efficiency of modern shipping makes that a trivial cost these days.

 

It is of course bound up with Brexit, but in this case they say, and I believe, its got nothing to do with it. The Honda plant was experiencing economic difficulties long before Brexit was announced, and in fact as far back as the recession as I recall. The Nissan plant in Sunderland of course is another matter. Their cutting of various new models being built in Britain would appear to be entirely to do with Brexit. But they dont appear to be leaving yet, they want to wait and see which way the wind is blowing first.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47542011

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Just think, if you hadn't listened to Varadker, this would already be a done deal.

Nope. The Irish border question was an issue pointed out even before the referendum, and I can't see any party on either side adopting a different stance on it if the end result was the UK leaving the Single Market.

 

On the plus side, as they say nobody is useless, he can still serve as a bad example.

 

Sweden's Left Party drops 'Swexit' policy ahead of EU vote

 

The Local

news@thelocal.se

@thelocalsweden

 

17 February 2019

12:50 CET+01:00

 

Sweden's Left Party on Saturday voted to drop a longstanding pledge for Sweden to leave the European Union from its manifesto ahead of May's EU elections.

 

"I'm happy about the decision. It is an important decision," party leader Jonas Sjöstedt told Sweden's TT newswire. "We get questions from both journalists and voters. Now we have a clear answer: we are not going to campaign on a pledge that Sweden should leave the EU."

 

The decision comes just weeks after Sweden's far-Right Sweden Democrats drop their own pledge for a renegotiation followed by a Swexit referendum. No major party in the country now favours an EU exit.

 

The former Communist party campaigned against Sweden joining the European Union when Sweden held its referendum on joining in 1994, and also campaigned on the 'no' side in the country's 2003 referendum on joining the euro.

 

[...]

 

https://www.thelocal.se/20190217/swedens-left-party-drops-swexit-policy Edited by BansheeOne
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Yeah I heard that about the Nissan model.

 

I'm not sure I follow on some points. If modern day shipping is inexpensive, then shipping from the UK to Europe mainland should be no problem.

 

I don't claim to know whether or not the Honda plant itself is having some difficulties. But cost would naturally be associated with constructing a new plant in continental Europe as well. Those same cost could be used for fixing up what ever problems there might be at the current plant. So yes, had the plant been there for 30 years worth investing, then it shouldn't be so easy to get up and go.

 

Although Honda isn't jumping the gun, the plant closure is for 2021. So there is time still to cancel the closure plan if somehow the UK remains in the Common Market with the EU.

Edited by JasonJ
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Just think, if you hadn't listened to Varadker, this would already be a done deal.

Nope. The Irish border question was an issue pointed out even before the referendum, and I can't see any party on either side adopting a different stance on it if the end result was the UK leaving the Single Market.

 

On the plus side, as they say nobody is useless, he can still serve as a bad example.

 

Sweden's Left Party drops 'Swexit' policy ahead of EU vote

 

The Local

news@thelocal.se

@thelocalsweden

 

17 February 2019

12:50 CET+01:00

 

Sweden's Left Party on Saturday voted to drop a longstanding pledge for Sweden to leave the European Union from its manifesto ahead of May's EU elections.

 

"I'm happy about the decision. It is an important decision," party leader Jonas Sjöstedt told Sweden's TT newswire. "We get questions from both journalists and voters. Now we have a clear answer: we are not going to campaign on a pledge that Sweden should leave the EU."

 

The decision comes just weeks after Sweden's far-Right Sweden Democrats drop their own pledge for a renegotiation followed by a Swexit referendum. No major party in the country now favours an EU exit.

 

The former Communist party campaigned against Sweden joining the European Union when Sweden held its referendum on joining in 1994, and also campaigned on the 'no' side in the country's 2003 referendum on joining the euro.

 

[...]

https://www.thelocal.se/20190217/swedens-left-party-drops-swexit-policy

 

 

As other have pointed out, it was entirely unnecessary to sort out the Northern Irish Border issue until we resolved a longer term relationship with the EU at a later date. It didnt need to be put at the front of the pile, but it was at the request of Varadker. The effect of putting in legislation to stop a hard Irish border is to quite possibly create a situation where there will be a hard Irish border. This is barking mad, to put it simply. If the backstop had not been there, we would have got this legislation through, May's position would be more solid, and we would be well on the way to negotiating that longer term relationship.

 

Even now we have European leaders glad handing Varadker as if he is the solution to the problem. They would do far better going to Westminster and glad handing May and Corbyn, and discovering what the hell the problem is. Varadker has only put roadblocks in this process, not solutions. But still the European leaders are listening to him as if he is some kind of fucking guru.

 

Tusk has offered the British Government a year extension to get itself sorted out. Im more and more thinking he is the only person in Brussels that has his head screwed on the right way around. This could yet turn around to be a customs arrangement with the EU that Labour are pushing for. The only people likely to screw that up are the people refusing to give a longer extension. Tusk I think gets this. Macron clearly doesnt.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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Yeah I heard that about the Nissan model.

 

I'm not sure I follow on some points. If modern day shipping is inexpensive, then shipping from the UK to Europe mainland should be no problem.

 

I don't claim to know whether or not the Honda plant itself is having some difficulties. But cost would naturally be associated with constructing a new plant in continental Europe as well. Those same cost could be used for fixing up what ever problems there might be at the current plant. So yes, had the plant been there for 30 years worth investing, then it shouldn't be so easy to get up and go.

 

Although Honda isn't jumping the gun, the plant closure is for 2021. So there is time still to cancel the closure plan if somehow the UK remains in the Common Market with the EU.

 

Im thinking it would be cheaper for Honda to base all its operations in Japan, than manage a separate plant on the other side of the planet. After all, if you are complying with EU legislation in Japan, you can build a car to entirely the same standard in Japan and just ship it. At least, that is the argument Honda seems to be voicing. If you are going to put the car on a boat anyway, why not do it at the head of a 8 thousand mile journey (or whatever it is) rather than a 400 mile one? The port costs will be the same, and modern diesel engines of ships run on small change these days.

 

I dont think Honda are worried about that Jason. Id like to think they are going to change their mind, but I dont think Brexit really has anything to do with this. At best its forced them to make a decision early they were going to make anyway.

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The japanese manufarurers settling in the UK was to easier get on the EU market which has import taxes. And making market specific models (same as foreign manufacturers do in the USA e.g. the Toyota Tacoma and Tundra, or Volkswagen making China and Brasil specific models etc etc). And I think in the case of Honda there was a joint venture with Rover in the nineties. So they were already there. Now Honda is reorganizing.

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I guess everything doesn't last forever. Just don't like it happening as defense ties with the UK grow. Weaker economic links could undermine it. But Toyota seems like they want to stay.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/20/toyota-team-up-with-suzuki-to-build-hybrid-cars-in-uk

 

Back about Honda moving back to Japan, in addition to changes with these trade agreements, another factor is the increase number of people on work visas in Japan. I wouldn't be surprised if a number of foreign workers will be working at any new Honda plant in Japan.

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My car was built at Sunderland. It will be sad to see the closing of that facility.

 

Its not certain yet. But they have culled certain new models. I think they are waiting on Theresa May's assurance that they will get easy access to the European Market. I guess we shall have to see how that shakes down, but I can understand Nissans disgruntlement.

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As other have pointed out, it was entirely unnecessary to sort out the Northern Irish Border issue until we resolved a longer term relationship with the EU at a later date.

The border issue becomes one the moment the UK leaves the Single Market, and would continue to exist for the duration of any negotiations on future relations, likely for years judging from recent examples; quite certainly longer than the transition phase in the current Brexit deal, which is why it includes the backstop option.

 

As I said, I can't see any of the involved parties taking a different stance - the EU compromising the integrity of the Single Market, the Irish Republicans accepting a hard border, the NI Unionists a border moved to the Irish Sea, or the Brexiteers the UK staying in a customs union with the EU. Again, these mutually exclusive positions were known at the point of the referendum. Something has to give in any outcome, and like in all Brexit-related issues, it's not going to be the side which the other wants something of.

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My car was built at Sunderland. It will be sad to see the closing of that facility.

 

Remember that the UK is itself a substantial market for new vehicles. There is a lot going on at the moment, particularly with the realisation that diesel vehicles in particular cause huge amounts of pollution-related deaths in urban areas and the move to electric power. This will have a lot of knock on effects on the supply chain and in the sale, ongoing maintenance and replacement of vehicles that will have significant, but as yet unknown consequences to the economies of all major countries as this trend continues. Further down the line, driverless cars could well undermine the market for new vehcles owned by individuals and families to a great extent.

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As other have pointed out, it was entirely unnecessary to sort out the Northern Irish Border issue until we resolved a longer term relationship with the EU at a later date.

The border issue becomes one the moment the UK leaves the Single Market, and would continue to exist for the duration of any negotiations on future relations, likely for years judging from recent examples; quite certainly longer than the transition phase in the current Brexit deal, which is why it includes the backstop option.

 

As I said, I can't see any of the involved parties taking a different stance - the EU compromising the integrity of the Single Market, the Irish Republicans accepting a hard border, the NI Unionists a border moved to the Irish Sea, or the Brexiteers the UK staying in a customs union with the EU. Again, these mutually exclusive positions were known at the point of the referendum. Something has to give in any outcome, and like in all Brexit-related issues, it's not going to be the side which the other wants something of.

 

 

I think you would be wrong to think this. I think the positions ARE already changing. May has alienating most of the hardline backbenchers she has tried so hard to keep onside, by talking with Corbyn. And whilst I think Corbyn's position of Common Market 2.0 isnt going to work, i think something between that position and a free trade position might emerge. At which point some of those red lines May has laid down will be cut. Either that or we are going to be in General election territory, and there are probably going to be few red lines left standing. Its not much secret that Labour and the DUP have very little in common.

 

Ive no idea how far that will go, but I think Parliament is moving. The difficulty is in divining where its moving to. :D

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My car was built at Sunderland. It will be sad to see the closing of that facility.

 

Remember that the UK is itself a substantial market for new vehicles. There is a lot going on at the moment, particularly with the realisation that diesel vehicles in particular cause huge amounts of pollution-related deaths in urban areas and the move to electric power. This will have a lot of knock on effects on the supply chain and in the sale, ongoing maintenance and replacement of vehicles that will have significant, but as yet unknown consequences to the economies of all major countries as this trend continues. Further down the line, driverless cars could well undermine the market for new vehcles owned by individuals and families to a great extent.

 

 

I cant see driverless cars getting traction in the UK market for decades personally. You only have to drive around wiltshire with roads that probably go back to the black death to realise there is absolutely no way machines programmed in california are going to fare driving around something that looks like it came off Game of Thrones. :)

 

Diesel is clearly an issue. The UK Government (rather stupidly) gave tax breaks on them to push new diesel vehicles because they were viewed as less poluting than petrol vehicles. If they had hung around Paddington station in the 1980's they might have thought differently. Not surprisingly it built up a car industry that looks very vulnerable to new thinking. We arent moving into hybrid or pure electric vehicles nearly enough here, and the decline of the industry is inevitable till we do.

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My car was built at Sunderland. It will be sad to see the closing of that facility.

 

Remember that the UK is itself a substantial market for new vehicles. There is a lot going on at the moment, particularly with the realisation that diesel vehicles in particular cause huge amounts of pollution-related deaths in urban areas and the move to electric power. This will have a lot of knock on effects on the supply chain and in the sale, ongoing maintenance and replacement of vehicles that will have significant, but as yet unknown consequences to the economies of all major countries as this trend continues. Further down the line, driverless cars could well undermine the market for new vehcles owned by individuals and families to a great extent.

 

 

I cant see driverless cars getting traction in the UK market for decades personally. You only have to drive around wiltshire with roads that probably go back to the black death to realise there is absolutely no way machines programmed in california are going to fare driving around something that looks like it came off Game of Thrones. :)

 

 

I remember the USAF Police at Fairford discovering Humvees wouldn't fit down country lanes and having to purchase Land Rovers instead. I must admit, the thought of driverless vehicles attempting some of the back roads in Stromness on an icy day is an interesting one :)

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@58.9606842,-3.3013006,3a,75y,91.38h,64.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssD6cKCG5usdjsdWebSjzmA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

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There is a main road near Salisbury Plain (I think its west lavington but I cant swear to it) where what is quite a wide main road suddenly devolves down to whats less than a lane to get past an old cottage. Its got driverless pileup written all over it. They must have lots of fun every time a driver relies on his satnav.

 

I didnt know that about Fairford, but it doesnt surprise me. I was driving around there the other day to look for B52's and you are approaching the edge of navigability in a Ford Kuga. Electric drive I can see the point of (not least in acceleration) but driverless strike me as a technological answer to a question nobody has asked. A bit like 3d telly. :)

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I could see electric cars working pretty well in the UK, it has a relatively mild climate so heating and cooling wouldn't be a major drain on range most days and driving distances are short. The biggest problem, like most places, would be charging infrastructure. It's not so much the lack of charge points but the sheer number you need, it's not like a gas pump where a full tank takes minutes, charging sites will be occupied for hours so you'll need a lot more. While a gas station with a couple pumps can probably handle all the cars in a small village plus any visitors. Two EV stations probably wouldn't be enough for a village of the same size.

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We experienced first hand the Dorset country lanes during the Southern England I&I. Still could not believe the speed limits posted on those roads.

 

I could see electric cars working pretty well in the UK, it has a relatively mild climate so heating and cooling wouldn't be a major drain on range most days and driving distances are short. The biggest problem, like most places, would be charging infrastructure. It's not so much the lack of charge points but the sheer number you need, it's not like a gas pump where a full tank takes minutes, charging sites will be occupied for hours so you'll need a lot more. While a gas station with a couple pumps can probably handle all the cars in a small village plus any visitors. Two EV stations probably wouldn't be enough for a village of the same size.

 

An important thing on EV recharging infrastructure is having a house with a private garage where a charging point could be installed. Quite a lot of commuting nowadays is in range of the current electric cars, even without recharging points near the workplace. From the point of view of a national electric grid, there could be a need to increase the amount of base generation, i.e. the "rigid part" of installed generating power, like big thermal, big nuke, and river flowing power stations. Wind could help, yes, but it is not reliable enough.

Edited by sunday
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We experienced first hand the Dorset country lanes during the Southern England I&I. Still could not believe the speed limits posted on those roads.

 

I could see electric cars working pretty well in the UK, it has a relatively mild climate so heating and cooling wouldn't be a major drain on range most days and driving distances are short. The biggest problem, like most places, would be charging infrastructure. It's not so much the lack of charge points but the sheer number you need, it's not like a gas pump where a full tank takes minutes, charging sites will be occupied for hours so you'll need a lot more. While a gas station with a couple pumps can probably handle all the cars in a small village plus any visitors. Two EV stations probably wouldn't be enough for a village of the same size.

 

An important thing on EV recharging infrastructure is having a house with a private garage where a charging point could be installed. Quite a lot of commuting nowadays is in range of the current electric cars, even without recharging points near the workplace. From the point of view of a national electric grid, there could be a need to increase the amount of base generation, i.e. the "rigid part" of installed generating power, like big thermal, big nuke, and river flowing power stations. Wind could help, yes, but it is not reliable enough.

 

When the fast roads in the UK are often Roman ones, you begin to see we have something of a transport problem. :D

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