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It is pretty well known that MiG lost a big market in eastern Europe, first when USSR applied the "Sinatra doctrine" and then when the Soviet Union dissolved.

 

I have been trying to get some idea of the number of Fulcrum to be acquired by Yugoslavia and Warsaw Pact nations if the Communist governments would have stayed in the power. This is so far what I have:

 

- Yugoslavia: 16 MiG-29, first country in Eastern Europe to receive them. 28 more were planned.

- Romania: 16 MiG-29. There were rumours about a total of 30 to be acquired.

- East Germany: 24 MiG-29, all transferred to Luftwaffe after reunification. No details if more were expected.

- Czechoslovakia: 20 MiG-29. Fleet divided between Czech Republic and Slovakia.

- Poland: 12 acquired from USSR, 10 from Czech Republic, and 22 from Germany.

- Hungary: 28 MiG-29 received in 1993 to pay for Russian debt. All retired and offered for sale.

- Bulgaria: 22 MiG-29 received in 1989-90.

 

Maybe our Eastern European colleagues could provide more details. Were there contracts for more MiG-29 being negotiated in 1990-91?

Edited by alejandro_
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Not for us. Hungary couldn't pay for MiG-29s if she wanted them in the 80s (didn't). She could afford a single squadron of Floggers before (they had arrived in 1978 or 79).

Edited by Oddball31
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Slovaks received more in the end, after all they upgraded 12 aircraft.

 

With a number of debts remaining from Warsaw Pact times, Russia sought to settle these issues with its former ‘imposed allies’. Several former Warsaw Pact countries therefore received transfers of armament that had essentially become obsolete in the ‘new’ Russia. Slovakia received two batches of Soviet-standard, full v-capable MiG-29s. Arriving from Russia in late 1994 were five single-seat 9.12s and a two-seat 9.51. The second batch followed a year later with an additional seven single-seaters and another two-seater. This brought the Slovak total to 24 MiG-29s, allowing the subsequent establishment of 2. stihacia letka (2nd Fighter Squadron) at Sliac. the new unit being the recipient of the former Russian aircraft. Today, the Russian debt payments in the form of armament back in the 1990s are an issue that Slovak officials would rather not discuss. - See more at: http://www.kamov.net/general-aviation/slovak-mig-29/#sthash.lONPDpUz.dpuf

 

In Poland licence production/upgrade of MiG-29/M-2000 was proposed in the mid-90s - it would be Russian airframe and engines plus Western avionics/armament. The number I came across is 72 total. We know how it turned out, though 16 of our 29s had some limited upgrades.

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Finland was about to order MiG-29 to replace MiG-21, when USSR collapsed. After that it was decided to buy all fighters from West, both because of political reasons, and to save money by operating just 1 type. Probably around 20 to 24 examples would have been bought. There was some speculation about Finns buying out ex-GDR MiG-29's, the number was just right, but Germans probably would not have sold them anyway.

 

In 1992, Yeltsin administration offered Finland MiG-29 and MiG-31 (!) but the offer was rejected.

Edited by Yama
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Bulgaria got MiG-25s. If they went mach 3 they ran out of country.

 

Yes, those were part of Warsaw Pact reconnaissance assets. As soon as it was dissolved, they were exchanged for MiG-23MLD.

 

the new unit being the recipient of the former Russian aircraft. Today, the Russian debt payments in the form of armament back in the 1990s are an issue that Slovak officials would rather not discuss. - See more at

 

Very interesting thanks. Hungary got their in a similar way. This country was criticized several times for not spending enough in deference.

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Mig-31? What were the Finns supposed to do with those? :blink:

 

I don't know. What little I've read of the episode, it comes across quite literally as some drunken Yeltsin idea.

 

But they sure would have looked badass! B)

 

Old Soviet debt writeoff with military equipmen was a topic here too, first MiG-29's were considered, and R-73 AAMs for Hawks. In the end we settled for Buk system, though that one required some arm-twisting.

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Bulgaria got MiG-25s. If they went mach 3 they ran out of country.

 

4 delivered in 1982, 1 lost in 1984, returned in 1991 (too big and too expensive for the country) to now Russia, got 5 MiG-23s in return.

 

They did regular recon flights over Turkey AFAIK.

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...

I have been trying to get some idea of the number of Fulcrum to be acquired by Yugoslavia and Warsaw Pact nations if the Communist governments would have stayed in the power. This is so far what I have:

 

...

- Czechoslovakia: 20 MiG-29. Fleet divided between Czech Republic and Slovakia.

...

 

 

Czechoslovak leadership decided on buying that 20 MiG-29 (18 single-seaters, 2 two-seaters) in 1985. According to small force reduction/reorganization in 1988 it was planned to get another 48 MiG-29 (42 single-seaters and 6 two-seaters). New fighters were expected to do qualitative compensation for dissolution of one fighter air regiment. However 1988 plan was dead by 1989.

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  • 1 year later...

In Serbia a book on the MiG-29 in former Yugoslavia has been published. The published information provides many interesting details on it's acquisition.

- The reason to acquire the Fulcrum was that the MiG-21 fleet was running out of hours and the Yugoslavian Novi Avion would bot be ready for operations until 1995.
- A Yugoslav delegation visited the USSR in December 1985. They were shown different types of weapons, all known except one. I This was the MiG-29 . It had a completely new configuration with very unusual air intakes and wing shape. The Yugoslav delegation was also able to see the R-77, which was an exception at the time.
- The new radar was not inferior to those used by Mirage 2000/F-16, and it had an optical sighting system, which could be combined with a helmet sighting system pilot, allowing missiles to be fired at an angle.
- In mid 1986 the government of Yugoslavia decided to acquire 14 single seat aircraft and 2 double. The price of one aircraft without weapons was 15.9 million $. At that time the F-16 and Mirage 2000 exceeded 30 million $.
- One of the officers involved in the selection states that back then the MiG-29 was superior to the other available options (F-20, Mirage 2000, F-16). It was cheaper and had better performance. At that time it was equipped with an electro-opctical sighting system, which the West only fielded after 10 years. Also, parts of the MiG-21 could be used in the MiG-29 -this probably refers to armament-.

https://vpk.name/news/180199_vot_pochemu_yugoslaviya_kupila_mig29_a_ne_mirazh2000_kurir_serbiya.html
Edited by alejandro_
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Marjan Jelen is a name of the test pilot who flew both 29 and 2000.

 

One problem with 29 however was that it could not use HAS equipped with blast doors, such as those at Zeljava airbase, since those were made for single tail aircrafts.

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Thanks Bojan, as I read the opinion was that the Mirage 2000 had better interface but lower performance than the MiG-29. If the price is taken into account the choice is pretty clear.

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  • 1 year later...

Bojan

 

- In mid 1986 the government of Yugoslavia decided to acquire 14 single seat aircraft and 2 double. The price of one aircraft without weapons was 15.9 million $. At that time the F-16 and Mirage 2000 exceeded 30 million $.

 

Can you confirm if these prices are correct? Maybe they include spares and weapons, because a F-16 is the 1980s was a fraction of that.

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The USAF has different prices, but no details:

 

Usually there are large variations depending if customer is USAF or export cliente. Check the FMS sales websites. Iraq paid +100 million for each F-16 with support/training.

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In the late 1970s Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands and Belgium signed a deal for 348 F-16As en Bs for 2.8 billion (Jan) 1975 USD, that is slightly over 8 million per aircraft with presumable some other costs included in the deal, as there was a not-exceed acquisition price of 6.091 million USD per aircraft. Part of the F-16s were to be produced in Europe and the US agreed to a 1.6 billion offset deal.

archive.gao.gov/f0902a/109722.pdf

 

However, I cannot find any figures about export pricing in the mid 1980s. This year Slovakia agreed to a price of 2.91 billion USD for 14 F-16 block 70/72 with spare engines, weapons, support, training etc. http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/slovakia-f-16-block-7072-v-configuration-aircraft

Edited by Daan
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Bojan

 

- In mid 1986 the government of Yugoslavia decided to acquire 14 single seat aircraft and 2 double. The price of one aircraft without weapons was 15.9 million $. At that time the F-16 and Mirage 2000 exceeded 30 million $.

 

Can you confirm if these prices are correct? Maybe they include spares and weapons, because a F-16 is the 1980s was a fraction of that.

 

In 1988 it was reported that flyaway price for F-16 was $23 million (export). MiG-29 was reported to cost about $22M. Yugoslavian airframes were used IIRC. It must be noted that USD was very expensive in mid-80s.

Mirage 2000 was very expensive bird until it was dropped from Swiss competition due to high price. That forced Dassault to cut the price.

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Mirage 2000 was very expensive bird until it was dropped from Swiss competition due to high price. That forced Dassault to cut the price.

 

Indeed. UAE also paid quite a bit for it's Mirage 2000-9.

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Off topic, I know. Why did Finland favor the F/A-18 over the F-16 or Gripen?

It was plain better. F-16 did not meet FAF requirements (unclear what requirements, technical evaluation is still classified, possibly landing/takeoff characteristics which were noted by Swedes). Also, one of the conditions was that end-assembly was done in Finland and General Dynamics was not eager for that arrangement. Price quoted above is for US assembled F-16's.

Gripen was hopelessly late and the program had considerable technical and financial risks (no weapon integrations done etc) which Saab wanted Finns to share, an unhappy position. Only Hornet and Mirage fullfilled the technical requirements 'out-of-the-box'.

 

AMRAAM iirc, the f-16 offered was lower-capability version?

Initially yes but the offer was upgraded to C/D Block 50/52 when Hornet entered the competition.

Ability to engage multiple targets with missiles was amongst key requirements for the program. As the French were more than happy to sell Mica, US had to offer AMRAAM to compete.

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Yes, even in Finnish evaluation Mirage 2000 costed more than F/A-18.

Pricing of the 1992 fighter candidates in Finnish Marks. Left column is acquisition cost, right column is maintenance cost over 30years.

 

Very interesting Yama, thanks. Couple of points:

 

- The MiG-29 is also very expensive, I would be expecting Russians to offer undelivered MiG-29.

- Next to the MiG-29 estimated cost it says Huom 15 v (Points 15 years?). What does this mean?

 

Spain also evaluated the F-16 (when F-18 was selected) and the Hornet was judged superior. It had a 2 engine configuration, BVR armament (and HARM/Harpoon). IIRC the 2 engine configuration was also preferred by the Finnish.

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