The Information Warfare Thread

[bojan]

2 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Upon reflection, I didn't find it as surprising as it should be. Some time ago I noted pessimistically that the Muslim world sorta won the Clash of Civilizations because we became like them: a bunch of conspiracy believers who distrust their own governments most of all...

Because your (and other governments) lied one too many time, participated in one war too much, abused power one too many time (i personally think that covid was a straw that broke donkey's back) etc. And because people can not channel their non-agreement with government policies w/o being labeled as "fringe", because in most case no political party is willing to be actual opposition (due the fear of being also labeled "fringe") in the things that matter, being only "opposition" in things that are mostly irrelevant to the majority of "people". So "people" get pushed more and more into self-radicalization, finding any ally they can, whoever it is, radical Islam, neo-Nazis etc.

While their reaction is not a solution, it is also, as you have noted not unexpected. And way it is being handled is surefire way to even more radicalization.

[sunday]

Covid, before that climate change, and before that the ban on nuclear power, to tell a few examples.

I still claim that the enemy of my enemy is only that, the enemy of my enemy. Probably my enemy too, but it is better than the enemies of one fight among themselves, that leave some unengaged, and available to fight that one.

[crazyinsane105]

https://www.newsweek.com/bin-laden-letter-us-stuns-young-americans-he-was-right-1844234
 

Looks like sympathy for even bin Laden is on the rise 

 

Also:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/facebook-cofounder-calls-elon-musk-213857968.html

[BansheeOne]

17 hours ago, bojan said:

Because your (and other governments) lied one too many time, participated in one war too much, abused power one too many time (i personally think that covid was a straw that broke donkey's back) etc. And because people can not channel their non-agreement with government policies w/o being labeled as "fringe", because in most case no political party is willing to be actual opposition (due the fear of being also labeled "fringe") in the things that matter, being only "opposition" in things that are mostly irrelevant to the majority of "people". So "people" get pushed more and more into self-radicalization, finding any ally they can, whoever it is, radical Islam, neo-Nazis etc.

I'm not judging who effected the change. Political alienation, both active and passive, is certainly part of it; then there is the normal long-term pendulum swing in democratic societies, usually accompanied by some upheaval when the pendulum hits the stop of what society overall is willing to accept, and starts swinging back.

Yet societies are ultimately responsible for their kind of government; you know, each gets the one they deserve. Regarding the WOT and its excesses in particular (and of course there was ample disagreement between various Western governments on that), the lessons of embarrassment about having cheered an administration who lied to lead your country into sundry quagmires aren't really well-learned if you turn around and cheer an administration, or government/belief systems in general which always lie as SOP - just because they denounce the previous one as evil warmongers and give you the feeling you were a misled innocent victim of evil hidden powers. Ultimately, responsibility rests with you, as part of society.

[rmgill]

People often get what they vote for, good and hard as it bends them over the table. 

[BansheeOne]

Latest trend: claiming that Israeli gunships killed all victims at the Tribe of Nova rave, based upon a "Ha'aretz" report citing Israeli police sources that some may have been (which is possible, but police are denying they're investigating this).

Quote

Palestinian Authority claims Israel fabricated evidence of October 7 to justify its attack on Gaza

By GIANLUCA PACCHIANI

Today, 7:24 pm

The Palestinian Authority circulates a document falsely claiming that a preliminary investigation by the Israel Police revealed that Israel “fabricated” media material to justify its attack on Gaza.

In a statement by its foreign ministry, the PA asserts that Israeli helicopters bombed Israeli civilians on October 7 during the Supernova music festival. The statement casts doubts on Israeli accounts of the atrocities on that day and on the visual material documenting the destruction and fires that affected the area near the Gaza border, and calls on all media outlets, UN officials and country leaders to follow-up on and review what the Hebrew media publishes.

The statement comes just a day after US President Joe Biden said that a “revitalized” PA should rule the Gaza Strip following the war, something Israel has repeatedly rejected, pointing to its refusal to condemn the October 7 onslaught.

The assertion that an IDF helicopter that arrived at the site of the festival near Re’im on October 7 may have killed some Israeli civilians was first made in Haaretz yesterday based on an unnamed Israeli Police source, and was widely picked up in the Arab press and shared on social media, taken widely out of context.

A police statement issued in response to the claim says that its investigation focused only and solely on police activity, and not any IDF activity, and therefore did not provide “any indication about the harm of civilians due to aerial activity there.”

The IDF did not comment on the report. The military has previously said it would investigate the October 7 attacks after the war.

Elements of the Haaretz article were taken widely out of context on social media and used to blame Israel for hundreds of civilian deaths on October 7, none of which has any basis in fact and in extensive reporting about the massacre.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-authority-claims-israel-fabricated-evidence-of-october-7-to-justify-its-attack-on-gaza/

[Roman Alymov]

3 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Latest trend: claiming that Israeli gunships killed all victims at the Tribe of Nova rave, based upon a "Ha'aretz" report citing Israeli police sources that some may have been (which is possible, but police are denying they're investigating this).

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-authority-claims-israel-fabricated-evidence-of-october-7-to-justify-its-attack-on-gaza/

This trend is not at all "latest" but just adaptation of well established  Western practicies. Wellcome to the world where media (at least, outside of the "garden") are no more under total control of West.

[BansheeOne]

It was certainly set up weeks ago with all the talk about how some of the victims may have been accidentally, negligently or even intentionally (to deprive Hamas of live hostages) killed by responding Israeli forces. But to claim that all dead at the festival were due to Israeli fire is new, if a logical progression in the denial narrative.

[BansheeOne]

Trutherdom has predictably seized on recent reports about the scope of the Israeli intelligence failure as "proof" that it wasn't an intelligence failure. Random sample via ZeroHedge:

Quote

VINDICATED: Israeli Intelligence Knew October 7 Attack Plan a Year in Advance

Ben Bartee

02.12.2023

On October 8th, the day after the Hamas attack, I penned an article calling bullshit on the “intelligence failure” narrative that emerged immediately in the aftermath — how could the governing authorities and media call it confidently an “intelligence failure” mere hours after the event? — just as the same narrative emerged just following the 9/11 attacks in Manhattan and DC.

Although I always take the time to carefully weigh evidence before making any definitive statements, as responsible journalists do, I didn’t feel compelled to wait or hedge in this case because it was palpably clear from the start that the narrative was total propaganda and would subsequently be debunked in the coming days and weeks.

Even based on the limited evidence available on October 8th, basic logic defied the “intelligence failure” story:

·       Gaza is among the, if not the, most heavily surveilled strips of land on Earth, both from the air (satellite and drone surveillance) and via Mossad spooks on the ground (what the so-called “intelligence community” calls “human intelligence” or “humint” because it loves insular jargon)

·       Gaza is among the most densely populated strips of land on Earth

·       The Israeli government controls all of Gaza’s borders in a total siege-style blockade. Nothing goes in or out without the state’s blessing

·       The October 8 operation involved tens of thousands of operatives and a bevy of equipment that would be virtually impossible to move into and around Gaza without detection

·       Hamas clearly had international financial and logistical support, which could not have flowed into the strip without detection

·       Months, if not years of planning went into the operation, including erecting a mock Israeli town inside of Gaza to use for practice. Israeli intelligence literally watched these training sessions from outposts on the border.

·       Hamas, sponsored by Iran, had enormous geopolitical incentive to attack when it did, as Israel was on the verge of signing normalization agreements with the Sunni Muslim world that would have threatened Iranian interests, which Israel well understood

·       Netanyahu’s historically controversial and unpopular government was barely clinging to power at the time of the attack, the target of unprecedentedly intense and large protests. Bibi himself was on the verge of imprisonment on corruption charges. An excuse to wage what could be framed as an “existential” war and remain in power indefinitely — which has since transpired — was seemingly the only way to remain for Netanyahu and his hardline allies to remain in office and out of prison. This objective necessarily would have required ignoring actionable intelligence.

… And this is by no means an exhaustive list of the reasons that point to the impossibility of Israeli intelligence ignorance of the impending attack and the incentives that all parties involved had to let October 7 play out the way it did.

It subsequently came out that the substantially less powerful Egyptian intelligence, which does not operate in sovereign Israeli territory of the Gaza Strip as Mossad does, knew of the attack beforehand and warned their Israeli counterparts, which went unheeded.

And now we have further vindication.

Via The New York Times:

“Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.

The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people.

[...]

https://armageddonprose.substack.com/p/vindicated-israeli-intelligence-knew