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I think you commented on this before via a painting showing the clergy "trampling" on the poorer people. IIRC, this animosity was due to the collaboration of the central Russian government and the church. Would this be correct?

 

Another hard question to answer. Complex relations between Orthodox Church and wide population are rooted 1000 years back to X century, when Greek Orthodoxy was chosen as state religion by Grand Duke and his top officials, followed by forced baptism of mostly pagan population "by fire and sword" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization_of_Kievan_Rus%27 for more details of this long and complex process). For centuries Russia was balancing at the edge of becoming clerical state like huge Vatikan (at some point, acting Patriarch was father of acting Tsar, who was by the way elected to his "job", and they were signing all state decrees together). Peter the Great crushed this Church dominant position making Church de-facto one of the state institutions controlled by bureaucratic committee (formally chaired by Emperor, but de-facto controlled by ober-prosecutor, civil official). For centuries, Church was the only institution of state contacting population on daily (well, weekly) basis - as the only way to quickly and reliably deliver state decrees or just official news bulleting was distributing them via Church heavily centralized structure to be read by priests in every congregation of Russia. Attending Church was mandatory for state officials down to lowest level (they were obligated to produce written certificate of attending confession and communion twice a year). Situation was further complicated by Church reform of XVII century when it split into official Orthodox Church and struggling Old Believers church (that was prosecuted by Tsar State officials even more brutally than regular Orthodox Church was in XX century). As we see, there was a lot of reasons for relations between wide masses of population and Church to be complex (it does not mean Russian people were anti-Orthodox, but when churches were looted and priests prosecuted, not only young Komsomol members were saying something like "Finally they got what they deserved")

By the way, Old Believers church was officially recognized as one of traditional religions of Russia with all rights returned only by Putin

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No Roman, lets not under sell it. Persecuted and executed, with extreme prejudice. Russia has to be thankful there was a WW2, or there might not be an Orthodox Church left.

Pray in it? I wouldnt spit on it if it was on fire, which is probably the best thing for it. Its about at tasteless as someone opening a 'Nazis's for Judaism' Synagogue.

 

Again, your personal problems with Stalin are up to you. Over more than 1000 years of Russian Orthodox church history (not mentioning far longer history of Christianity) he is not even close to be the most brutal ruler (and some of them are now even official saints). Depicting top state officials was quite normal for Greek Orthodox tradition inherited by Russia - see the story of changes in mosaics of Hagia Sophia of Constantinopol in line with political changes.

Re Poland, it is more up to Poles to judje - as Polish communists were quite aware of situation necessary (and not necessary) measures to take. They got luxury of learning from USSR mistakes, and acting without immediate danger of mighty superpower allience crushing them, so there was no rush fro them for forced collectivisation of farmers, crushing Church and so on.

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My personal problems? I live in a village that was a home to displaced Polish people who fled the glorious workers republic at the end of the second world war. They fled, because they knew what happened at Katyn, and had seen quite enough of what living in the USSR was like after the Soviet invasion of 1939. They voted with their feet, which is about the only vote they would ever have if they didnt exercise it.

 

Its not MY personal issues that are the problem. The issue is an attempt to reinvent history to make a mass murdering despot into a hero or a saint. Not the most brutal rulers, well lets dig up Katyn again and prove me wrong shall we? Or how about those graveyards outside Moscow that the Government clamp down on digging up, lest they discover how many hapless Soviet citizens are planted there with an NKVD hole in the back of their heads?

 

The Hagia Sophia changed its role from a Cathedral to a Mosque because the Moslems invaded. That is no different from reroling a Church into a mosque, or even a synagogue into a Church here, which often happens here as demand requires. Its an entirely different thing to build a cathedral with a mass murdering despot as a centre of deification. How would you feel if the Germans or Austrians build a cathedral dedicated to Germans wartime dead with a centrepiece of Hitler on the wall? My guess is, you would be fairly pissed. Though you frame it otherwise, this is absolutely no different.

Edited by Stuart Galbraith
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The German conquered areas of former Soviet zone were given somewhat greater Christain freedom than they once had. Of course not for the Jews obviously. This threatened loyalty from regular people to the Soviet State. So the Soviet side relaxed control as a countermeasure.

The Catholic Church in Poland also survived, and as we saw has to take a large chunk of credit as being a rallying point for resistance to Communism. Why did the Soviets allow it in the occupied territories? I think it was a case of keeping it in the open so they could keep an eye on it. Perhaps they knew if it went underground it would be an even bigger danger. Although as we saw, that didnt necessarily stop it doing that as well.

 

I reckon the later Soviet leaders were a little smarter and knew how to better legitimize his position with words in the face of criticism even if still in control with an iron fist. With Stalin, Christians were by far not the only ones persecuted/purged. SU lost many capable military officers due to purges as well. Although Stalin and company must have surely been very heavy into the atheism aspect of their version of communism as well. The persecution of Christians went beyond just purging, if its possible to make "purge" look light. After killing off millions of Christians, the SU didn't seem any more intellectually impressive. So it wasn't the Christians holding them back.

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No Roman, lets not under sell it. Persecuted and executed, with extreme prejudice. Russia has to be thankful there was a WW2, or there might not be an Orthodox Church left.

Pray in it? I wouldnt spit on it if it was on fire, which is probably the best thing for it. Its about at tasteless as someone opening a 'Nazis's for Judaism' Synagogue.

 

Again, your personal problems with Stalin are up to you. Over more than 1000 years of Russian Orthodox church history (not mentioning far longer history of Christianity) he is not even close to be the most brutal ruler (and some of them are now even official saints). Depicting top state officials was quite normal for Greek Orthodox tradition inherited by Russia - see the story of changes in mosaics of Hagia Sophia of Constantinopol in line with political changes.

Re Poland, it is more up to Poles to judje - as Polish communists were quite aware of situation necessary (and not necessary) measures to take. They got luxury of learning from USSR mistakes, and acting without immediate danger of mighty superpower allience crushing them, so there was no rush fro them for forced collectivisation of farmers, crushing Church and so on.

 

1000 years is a long time. Stalin was in the last 100. Also, I find it hard to believe that there could have been many to be worse than Stalin. Without the German invasion, Soviet State atheism might have been completed. And even if a figure that could be calculated to have been worse than Stalin by no means make Stalin fit to be put into a Church. More like a reminder to Christianity in there as to what can happen if they act out of line because surely they remember what happened.

Edited by JasonJ
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My personal problems? I live in a village that was a home to displaced Polish people who fled the glorious workers republic at the end of the second world war. They fled, because they knew what happened at Katyn, and had seen quite enough of what living in the USSR was like after the Soviet invasion of 1939. They voted with their feet, which is about the only vote they would ever have if they didnt exercise it.

Again, it is up to you. After all you are proud of "British DNA" of USA, despite those who brought this DNA across the ocean have also voted with their feet, even despite facing grave danger of new land. So if somebody left Poland out of fear of organization created by Polish noble Feliks Dzierżyński - it was their decision.

 

 

 

Its not MY personal issues that are the problem. The issue is an attempt to reinvent history to make a mass murdering despot into a hero or a saint. Not the most brutal rulers, well lets dig up Katyn again and prove me wrong shall we? Or how about those graveyards outside Moscow that the Government clamp down on digging up, lest they discover how many hapless Soviet citizens are planted there with an NKVD hole in the back of their heads?

Please spare me of this Katyn and " graveyards outside Moscow" rhetoric - i got enough of it from our local liberals (including those sitting in our Government). They were ringing this bell (with financial support of all this "Radio Liberty"-style foreign organizations) for so long that now they are getting reverse reaction on it. By the way now the same organisations and medua complain about excavation of mass graves of Soviet POWs shot by Finns, as it is ruining their rhetoric of "murderous Stalin" or, in best case, "two dictators" - but showing so called "free nations" were exercising their freedom in unpleasant way.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-stalin-terror-mass-grave-ussr-a9084336.html

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The Hagia Sophia changed its role from a Cathedral to a Mosque because the Moslems invaded. That is no different from reroling a Church into a mosque, or even a synagogue into a Church here, which often happens here as demand requires.

Probably i was not clear enough: mosaics of Hagia Sophia were modified centuries before Muslim conquest. First, the face of previous Emperor was replaced by face of new one as his wife married again; unfortunately 8 years later new husband died so the face was changed again (this picture survived until now). Also the face of Empress was damaged when Mikhail V removed her from power (but it caused sort of uprising and she came back, resulting in mosaic fixed) See

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Porphyrogenita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_V_Kalaphates

- it will give you idea of situation Orthodox Church was surviving and adopting to historically. Stalin is not even close match to that

 

 

 

 

 

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. Its an entirely different thing to build a cathedral with a mass murdering despot as a centre of deification. How would you feel if the Germans or Austrians build a cathedral dedicated to Germans wartime dead with a centrepiece of Hitler on the wall? My guess is, you would be fairly pissed. Though you frame it otherwise, this is absolutely no different.

Where you got this " centre of deification"? It only exist in hysteric media reports. This is how Cathedral central part is looking lik, good luck finding Stalin here

EFOlB7VXoAA4_5z.jpg

By the way how many Christian cathedrals are now under construction in UK?

 

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How would you feel if the Germans or Austrians build a cathedral dedicated to Germans wartime dead with a centrepiece of Hitler on the wall? My guess is, you would be fairly pissed. Though you frame it otherwise, this is absolutely no different.

No need to go so distant as Germany- as we got Nazi collaborators glorified right at Russian border, with full support of West. With memorials in stone, worshiping in churches etc

D_RnFW6UEAApFEJ.jpg

Mihaylo-Mulik-2-1.jpg

D5neAUUWkAAVNha.jpg

 

 

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Im still waiting for the Scientologists to go into Politics. Its inevitable at some point. Then Christ help us.

 

The old Russian Orthodox Church im sure had its issues, but it wasnt the Church of Scientology.

 

Agree with you on the inevitability of the first, as it would be a logical development.

 

For better or worse (hell, mostly worse), Japan's Happy Science derivative already has gone into politics. When Aum Shinrikyo thinks a "church" is over the top...

 

The Russian Orthodox Church does not belong in the same sentence, but the threat perception of it may have been similar to Stalin.

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. Its an entirely different thing to build a cathedral with a mass murdering despot as a centre of deification. How would you feel if the Germans or Austrians build a cathedral dedicated to Germans wartime dead with a centrepiece of Hitler on the wall? My guess is, you would be fairly pissed. Though you frame it otherwise, this is absolutely no different.

Where you got this " centre of deification"? It only exist in hysteric media reports. This is how Cathedral central part is looking lik, good luck finding Stalin here

EFOlB7VXoAA4_5z.jpg

By the way how many Christian cathedrals are now under construction in UK?

 

Is this a photograph?

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Ok, so you want a comparison Roman. Let me give you one. Here is the 'new' coventry cathedral that was opened in 1962, next to the war damaged one destroyed by German bombing in 1940.

 

What do you notice? Thats right, no political messaging whatsoever.

 

 

Coventry_Cathedral_Interior%2C_West_Midl

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Ok, so you want a comparison Roman. Let me give you one. Here is the 'new' coventry cathedral that was opened in 1962, next to the war damaged one destroyed by German bombing in 1940.

 

What do you notice? Thats right, no political messaging whatsoever.

 

Well, as for me for the Church where the monarch is the supreme governor, "no political messaging" rhetoric is strange. But it is up to you - after all we here in Russia are barbaric enough not to have fruits of civilization like open gay bishops etc. but do not complain about you having them. And having clear political message in Church is in our barbaric tradition

"The Cathedral of Vasily the commonly known as Saint Basil's Cathedral, is a Christian church in Red Square in Moscow, Russia and is regarded as a cultural symbol of the country. The building, now a museum, is officially known as the Cathedral of the Intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos on the Moat or Pokrovsky Cathedral . It was built from 1555 to 1561 on orders from Ivan the Terrible and commemorates the capture of Kazan and Astrakhan. It was the city's tallest building until the completion of the Ivan the Great Bell Tower in 1600."

As we see, entire building is political symbol (as it is styled in "Kazan style")

rossiya-597x380.jpg

 

If somebody do not like our Church traditions - it is his personal problem, not ours.

 

Edited by Roman Alymov
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Roman your making an accurate description of a church building and the people who worship inside said building. It is not the building that is the church but the people of the church. From my experience the best examples of Christianity are being done by ordinary folks in ordinary buildings.

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Roman your making an accurate description of a church building and the people who worship inside said building. It is not the building that is the church but the people of the church. From my experience the best examples of Christianity are being done by ordinary folks in ordinary buildings.

By the way since your interest to roots of complex relations between Russian Church and ordinary Russians, let me direct you to classic "Who Is Happy in Russia?" By Nekrasov (about 1865)

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/9619/pg9619.txt especially from #210

 

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Galicians....

They are not alone

 

old habits....

 

 

Roman, So do you suport them in there effort to make a monument/tomb of the dead to a homage to a genocidal regime? Or you only suport that typ of behavior if it is the RIGHT typ of genocidal regime that is givien homage.

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Roman, So do you suport them in there effort to make a monument/tomb of the dead to a homage to a genocidal regime? Or you only suport that typ of behavior if it is the RIGHT typ of genocidal regime that is givien homage.

 

What i support is our Gov to learn international best practice of "legal is what is in our interests", and especially Israel habit of taking any threat seriously (learned by Jews hard way). Foreign power is training terrorists against you? Destroy this training camp. Somebody is playing with missiles or UAVs or aviation to strike your territory? This installation is to be targeted. Russian town is under artillery strike? Any unit and installation involved is to be destroyed. And so on. What about this old SS veterans in Baltics and other places - i do not think we have to do something with them (they will face God soon anyway, and if not - it is mainly up to Jews, they know how to address this people) but we have to remember it and treat the countries where it is allowed accordingly.

Partly it is done (see for example massive investments in Russian Baltic ports infrastructure de-facto killing port business in Estonia and other places). but unfortunatelly our Gov is too West-dependent to implement it fully. I do not think any Israel politician or businessman own luxury villa in Tehran ....

 

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Roman your making an accurate description of a church building and the people who worship inside said building. It is not the building that is the church but the people of the church. From my experience the best examples of Christianity are being done by ordinary folks in ordinary buildings.

By the way since your interest to roots of complex relations between Russian Church and ordinary Russians, let me direct you to classic "Who Is Happy in Russia?" By Nekrasov (about 1865)

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/9619/pg9619.txt especially from #210

 

 

Thank you.

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