Iran Military Re-Arms

[KV7]

 

The American Right is pro-Israel. The American Left is increasingly not.

 

The American left probably isn't pro annexation, but it hardly is going to sanction either. You will still see the US providing Israel with weapons and financial aide a couple decades from now, even if the GOP crumbles, which seems rather likely.

 

100 % correct. The edge of acceptable opinion in the Democratic party is that Likud are too bellicose etc. but also that some sort of two state solution should happen more or less only on terms that are fully acceptable to Israel.

[lucklucky]

MZ, one day you tell me that Israel requires no security assistance in the West Bank from the US or NATO. The next, you tell me that the Palis are "corrupted oppressive terrorists" in which the Israelis cannot make a deal because the Palis cannot deliver. You obviously want the Palestinians weak and divided so that you can pretend to negotiate, but never actually negotiate.

 

"That is not even wrong...."

[Mighty_Zuk]

I simply see no reason for the US to get into a military conflict with Iran given its current behavior. Were it to close the Persian Gulf, well then game on.

Do you see the US in a military conflict with Iran right now? Didn't think so. The US has many allies and many interests in the region. Criticizing post-war the US's decision-making in the process, when there hasn't been a war yet, is just your simultaneous fantasies conflicting with each other.

 

People criticizing Israel, KSA, UAE, or other gulf countries for instigating a war with Iran that hasn't happened yet, are abundant.

Make no mistake, they're absolutely retarded. Don't be in that bunch, Josh.

 

Also, Josh, what annexation exactly?

Annexation of the entire West Bank? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of Gaza? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of the Jordan Valley? That plan was already executed, albeit with only a partial success.

[Mighty_Zuk]

 

 

MZ, one day you tell me that Israel requires no security assistance in the West Bank from the US or NATO. The next, you tell me that the Palis are "corrupted oppressive terrorists" in which the Israelis cannot make a deal because the Palis cannot deliver. You obviously want the Palestinians weak and divided so that you can pretend to negotiate, but never actually negotiate.

"That is not even wrong...."

Do not expect logic from Glenn. Communists are far more idealists than realists, and therefore prone to emotional, rather than factual judgment.

[Josh]

 

I simply see no reason for the US to get into a military conflict with Iran given its current behavior. Were it to close the Persian Gulf, well then game on.

Do you see the US in a military conflict with Iran right now? Didn't think so.

 

I guess I should use the term 'war' or 'open conflict' instead of 'conflict'. Iranian directed shi'ite militia's take shots at the US sporatically, much more so after the US killed Soliemeni and some militia leaders in rather blatant attack. The Iranians responded with medium ranged ballistic missiles as far as I can tell, but that didn't seem unreasonable in the context and current administration seemed to have decided that as well.

 

The US has many allies and many interests in the region. Criticizing post-war the US's decision-making in the process, when there hasn't been a war yet, is just your simultaneous fantasies conflicting with each other.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I'm not sure what you think I'm criticizing or what my simultaneous fantasies are. I think I staked out my position quite clearly.

People criticizing Israel, KSA, UAE, or other gulf countries for instigating a war with Iran that hasn't happened yet, are abundant.

Make no mistake, they're absolutely retarded. Don't be in that bunch, Josh.

 

I at no point criticized Israel nor involved the KSA or UAE. Again, I believe my position is quite clear: Iran is a nuisance that isn't worth the blood and treasure of a war/open conflict FOR THE US. Everyone else is free to pursue their own foreign policy.

 

Also, Josh, what annexation exactly?

Annexation of the entire West Bank? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of Gaza? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of the Jordan Valley? That plan was already executed, albeit with only a partial success.

 

The most recent annexation plan that was probably binned even before the UAE made its deal with Israel. I was responding to Glenn's assertion that the Democratic party was moving away from Israel, which I think is largely baseless. Do you disagree?

 

My responses in bold.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Josh

[glenn239]

 

 

 

The American Right is pro-Israel. The American Left is increasingly not.

 

The American left probably isn't pro annexation, but it hardly is going to sanction either. You will still see the US providing Israel with weapons and financial aide a couple decades from now, even if the GOP crumbles, which seems rather likely.

 

 

 

 

 

Israel has managed to avoid being a bipartisan issue in the US, but this started to end under Obama and accelerated under Trump.

Edited August 25, 2020 by glenn239

[glenn239]

 

MZ, one day you tell me that Israel requires no security assistance in the West Bank from the US or NATO. The next, you tell me that the Palis are "corrupted oppressive terrorists" in which the Israelis cannot make a deal because the Palis cannot deliver. You obviously want the Palestinians weak and divided so that you can pretend to negotiate, but never actually negotiate.

 

"That is not even wrong...."

 

 

MZ talks out of both sides of his mouth. One sentence, the Palestinians are terrorists and a security threat. The next, that Israel needs no assistance from the US with security in Palestine.

 

I think the situation will not be stabilized until the West sends security forces into Palestine and Gaza to make it stable. If Israel continues down its current path, its drifting towards trouble.

[glenn239]

MZ That's a 2 way street, you know. If the US decides, as you wish, to abandon Israel and the gulf to Iran, eastern Europe to Russia, and SEA to North Korea and China, then none will come to its aid either. Nor will its former allies be willing to help the US maintain its economical dominance.

 

 

The US sending troops and equipment to the West Bank to secure a peace settlement is not the act of “abandoning” Israel.

 

You say the US should be an isolationist country. But you're forgetting that by doing the very opposite, it managed to become and remains a superpower.

 

 

The US sending security forces to the West Bank is also not an act of "isolationism".

 

And to you Glenn, because there's no multi-quote option for mobile, just like the left you are delusional on an ever increasing amount of levels.

 

 

 

The problem being that US security forces in Palestine will strengthen the Palestinian bargaining position and interfere with Israeli regional hegemony. Now, you can't say that directly, that a free hand is what you reall ywant, so what I get is your endless nonsense of "abandoning" Israel and such, when what I'm saying is that we should be bringing Israel into NATO and sending NATO troops to Palestine to guarantee your security. How the fuck did you think that Israel entering into NATO would be "abandoning" Israel?

 

You won't rest until the whole world becomes your wet communist dream. Sorry to disappoint you, but that just won't happen. Ever. At least not in your lifetime.

 

 

The problem for Israel is the proliferation of precision conventional missiles going forward. The whole Israeli policy is increasingly dangerous and ineffective. At some point a US president is going to have to get the Israelis into line and get shit resolved in Palestine. That ain't isolationist, that ain't communist. Its just common sense.

Edited August 25, 2020 by glenn239

[Mighty_Zuk]

Glenn you again demonstrate you have cognitive dissonance.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

I simply see no reason for the US to get into a military conflict with Iran given its current behavior. Were it to close the Persian Gulf, well then game on.

Do you see the US in a military conflict with Iran right now? Didn't think so. The US has many allies and many interests in the region. Criticizing post-war the US's decision-making in the process, when there hasn't been a war yet, is just your simultaneous fantasies conflicting with each other.

 

People criticizing Israel, KSA, UAE, or other gulf countries for instigating a war with Iran that hasn't happened yet, are abundant.

Make no mistake, they're absolutely retarded. Don't be in that bunch, Josh.

 

Also, Josh, what annexation exactly?

Annexation of the entire West Bank? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of Gaza? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of the Jordan Valley? That plan was already executed, albeit with only a partial success.

 

Here has been my view on it. America is, sooner or later, going to tire of Israel. They do with ALL of their allies at some point, even us. So you have at this moment a favourable opportunity to get peace with Palestine and thence a good shot at the rest of the Arab world. Saudia Arabia is the prize, the UAE is just a stepping stone to get there.

 

So this continual prevarication is not going to suit Israel in the long term. When the US eventually pulls the plug on all that economic support ( and America in its demography is changing, to the point where its far from certain there is going to be any votes in supporting Israel) then you are going to have to do it when its going to look desperate. And I dont think at that point its going to get as good a deal.

 

Yes, im aware the Palestinians are just as intractable. If anything they have demonstrated the same mistake, they waiting until everyone lost interest in them. They will never get as good terms as they would have done say, 10 years ago.

 

Im sure I said all this 10 years ago, and I was ridiculed then by an Israeli poster. I dont see support in the US firming up. For all the superlatives written of Trump, what has he done? He has avoided confronting Iran, despite having missiles fired at Iraqi bases, and now armed an Arab nation with the same weapons you thought gave you ascendency over all others, without apparently even telling you first.

 

And that's your best ally at the moment. Yes, you can do worse, and probably will.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[seahawk]

 

 

MZ, one day you tell me that Israel requires no security assistance in the West Bank from the US or NATO. The next, you tell me that the Palis are "corrupted oppressive terrorists" in which the Israelis cannot make a deal because the Palis cannot deliver. You obviously want the Palestinians weak and divided so that you can pretend to negotiate, but never actually negotiate.

 

"That is not even wrong...."

 

 

MZ talks out of both sides of his mouth. One sentence, the Palestinians are terrorists and a security threat. The next, that Israel needs no assistance from the US with security in Palestine.

 

I think the situation will not be stabilized until the West sends security forces into Palestine and Gaza to make it stable. If Israel continues down its current path, its drifting towards trouble.

 

It would be the worst decision by the west ever made. The Pals won´t trust the force, neither will the right wing Israelis nor the Iranian proxies, nor the Saudi Proxies, nor the UAE proxies, nor the Qatar proxies,...

 

If you want to stabilize the region, go for green energy so that the Gulf States no longer can sell you energy and are no longer swimming in money they can invest into extending their influence in the region.

[Mighty_Zuk]

 

 

 

 

 

 

MZ, one day you tell me that Israel requires no security assistance in the West Bank from the US or NATO. The next, you tell me that the Palis are "corrupted oppressive terrorists" in which the Israelis cannot make a deal because the Palis cannot deliver. You obviously want the Palestinians weak and divided so that you can pretend to negotiate, but never actually negotiate.

"That is not even wrong...."

MZ talks out of both sides of his mouth. One sentence, the Palestinians are terrorists and a security threat. The next, that Israel needs no assistance from the US with security in Palestine.

 

I think the situation will not be stabilized until the West sends security forces into Palestine and Gaza to make it stable. If Israel continues down its current path, its drifting towards trouble.

It would be the worst decision by the west ever made. The Pals won´t trust the force, neither will the right wing Israelis nor the Iranian proxies, nor the Saudi Proxies, nor the UAE proxies, nor the Qatar proxies,...

 

If you want to stabilize the region, go for green energy so that the Gulf States no longer can sell you energy and are no longer swimming in money they can invest into extending their influence in the region.

Glenn doesn't know about the 1982 Beirut Bombings, last time the US did what he suggested.

[Mighty_Zuk]

 

 

 

I simply see no reason for the US to get into a military conflict with Iran given its current behavior. Were it to close the Persian Gulf, well then game on.

Do you see the US in a military conflict with Iran right now? Didn't think so. The US has many allies and many interests in the region. Criticizing post-war the US's decision-making in the process, when there hasn't been a war yet, is just your simultaneous fantasies conflicting with each other.

 

People criticizing Israel, KSA, UAE, or other gulf countries for instigating a war with Iran that hasn't happened yet, are abundant.

Make no mistake, they're absolutely retarded. Don't be in that bunch, Josh.

 

Also, Josh, what annexation exactly?

Annexation of the entire West Bank? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of Gaza? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of the Jordan Valley? That plan was already executed, albeit with only a partial success.

Here has been my view on it. America is, sooner or later, going to tire of Israel. They do with ALL of their allies at some point, even us. So you have at this moment a favourable opportunity to get peace with Palestine and thence a good shot at the rest of the Arab world. Saudia Arabia is the prize, the UAE is just a stepping stone to get there.

 

So this continual prevarication is not going to suit Israel in the long term. When the US eventually pulls the plug on all that economic support ( and America in its demography is changing, to the point where its far from certain there is going to be any votes in supporting Israel) then you are going to have to do it when its going to look desperate. And I dont think at that point its going to get as good a deal.

 

Yes, im aware the Palestinians are just as intractable. If anything they have demonstrated the same mistake, they waiting until everyone lost interest in them. They will never get as good terms as they would have done say, 10 years ago.

 

Im sure I said all this 10 years ago, and I was ridiculed then by an Israeli poster. I dont see support in the US firming up. For all the superlatives written of Trump, what has he done? He has avoided confronting Iran, despite having missiles fired at Iraqi bases, and now armed an Arab nation with the same weapons you thought gave you ascendency over all others, without apparently even telling you first.

 

And that's your best ally at the moment. Yes, you can do worse, and probably will.

And yet you have no alternative to suggest. No political move Israel could make.

 

Criticism is entirely invalid if an alternative is not presented. Since you, admittedly, cannot present an alternative, your criticism is invalid.

 

There is no peace proposal Israel didn't accept, even unknowing the terms, only because it trusted the US as an ally to form something it can work with. There is no peace proposal Palestine didn't reject, and eventually didn't regret.

 

If we won't have the US, we'll have another superpower to back us up. Israel is a very lucrative ally for anyone. Economically, technologically, geographically, militarily. But it won't affect policy towards the Palestinians. If Israeli leadership really cared about the opinions of others when it comes to issues of survival, it would probably be a Soviet satellite state.

 

At some point Zionism was officially, internationally recognized as a form of racism. So you're greatly exaggerating the importance of international opinion.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Mighty_Zuk

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

 

I simply see no reason for the US to get into a military conflict with Iran given its current behavior. Were it to close the Persian Gulf, well then game on.

Do you see the US in a military conflict with Iran right now? Didn't think so. The US has many allies and many interests in the region. Criticizing post-war the US's decision-making in the process, when there hasn't been a war yet, is just your simultaneous fantasies conflicting with each other.

 

People criticizing Israel, KSA, UAE, or other gulf countries for instigating a war with Iran that hasn't happened yet, are abundant.

Make no mistake, they're absolutely retarded. Don't be in that bunch, Josh.

 

Also, Josh, what annexation exactly?

Annexation of the entire West Bank? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of Gaza? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of the Jordan Valley? That plan was already executed, albeit with only a partial success.

Here has been my view on it. America is, sooner or later, going to tire of Israel. They do with ALL of their allies at some point, even us. So you have at this moment a favourable opportunity to get peace with Palestine and thence a good shot at the rest of the Arab world. Saudia Arabia is the prize, the UAE is just a stepping stone to get there.

 

So this continual prevarication is not going to suit Israel in the long term. When the US eventually pulls the plug on all that economic support ( and America in its demography is changing, to the point where its far from certain there is going to be any votes in supporting Israel) then you are going to have to do it when its going to look desperate. And I dont think at that point its going to get as good a deal.

 

Yes, im aware the Palestinians are just as intractable. If anything they have demonstrated the same mistake, they waiting until everyone lost interest in them. They will never get as good terms as they would have done say, 10 years ago.

 

Im sure I said all this 10 years ago, and I was ridiculed then by an Israeli poster. I dont see support in the US firming up. For all the superlatives written of Trump, what has he done? He has avoided confronting Iran, despite having missiles fired at Iraqi bases, and now armed an Arab nation with the same weapons you thought gave you ascendency over all others, without apparently even telling you first.

 

And that's your best ally at the moment. Yes, you can do worse, and probably will.

And yet you have no alternative to suggest. No political move Israel could make.

 

Criticism is entirely invalid if an alternative is not presented. Since you, admittedly, cannot present an alternative, your criticism is invalid.

 

There is no peace proposal Israel didn't accept, even unknowing the terms, only because it trusted the US as an ally to form something it can work with. There is no peace proposal Palestine didn't reject, and eventually didn't regret.

 

If we won't have the US, we'll have another superpower to back us up. Israel is a very lucrative ally for anyone. Economically, technologically, geographically, militarily. But it won't affect policy towards the Palestinians. If Israeli leadership really cared about the opinions of others when it comes to issues of survival, it would probably be a Soviet satellite state.

 

At some point Zionism was officially, internationally recognized as a form of racism. So you're greatly exaggerating the importance of international opinion.

 

Im pretty sure I already did. You have already said there has been compromise on both sides. If I was Bibi, id be more minded to compromise and get a deal now, because the payoff is going to be better.

Look at it like this, lets suppose Iran is going to collapse next week. The week after, the Arabs announce its back to normal in relations with Israel, because they no longer have no need of it.

 

Inevitably, the longer Israel leaves it, the worse its going to be. Bite the bullet now whilst everyone is onside. Then when the Palestinians fuck it up, as they probably will, you have the moral high ground.

 

 

I think you are greatly exaggerating the lack of importance of international opinion. In 1956, in 1967, in 1973, Israel always had a rich backer. Its never faced its interlocutors alone, not even in 1982. In 1973 that was crucial. I think we may end up viewing Trump as the high water mark. America needs Israel a lot less these days, in that its not fighting the war on terror, and its attempting to have as little to do with the middle east.

 

 

Why does China need Israel? Its more interested in backing the gulf states these days. They just dont have the sentimental attachment America has had. France? Russia? They are bankrupt, and their equipment isnt a patch on what you are used to.

 

No peace proposal Israel didnt accept? So the stories about Carter locking Sadat and Begin in a room till he got a deal are completely manufactured then?

[Josh]

Glenn you again demonstrate you have cognitive dissonance.

 

On this we agree.

[glenn239]

Glenn you again demonstrate you have cognitive dissonance.

 

My favorite was when I argue (about 50 times over 10 years) that NATO troops should be in Palestine assisting Israel with security and you continue to mouth some nonsense about me wanting the US "abandon" Israel. It's like you don't even understand what words mean in the English language.

[glenn239]

It would be the worst decision by the west ever made. The Pals won´t trust the force, neither will the right wing Israelis nor the Iranian proxies, nor the Saudi Proxies, nor the UAE proxies, nor the Qatar proxies,...

 

 

 

If you want to stabilize the region, go for green energy so that the Gulf States no longer can sell you energy and are no longer swimming in money they can invest into extending their influence in the region.

 

 

An Eastern block is emerging in the Middle East based on a Sino-Iranian axis. Iran will use this cover to recover its conventional capabilities to a level beyond Israel's capacity to counter.

 

Going forward, the West Bank will be a sucking chest wound for our support of Israel because its a flash point between rival blocks, an issue that the Eastern Bloc can bang on to prevent the Western bloc from supporting Israel. We need to get our house in order in the West Bank and Gaza before Israel becomes completely isolated and lashes out. Israel will not comply with the requirements of the West to help it without being compelled to cooperate by the West. This will no doubt have to include at least a first round of mild UN economic sanctions where the US votes for the sanctions, such that Jerusalem realises they need to comply.

 

Josh is in La La Land about the US Left. His hatred of Trump and the Right blinds him to the reality of the Leftist party he backs. AOC is a backer of Israel? BLM? AOC and BLM don't give a flying fuck about Israel and Josh knows it.

Edited August 26, 2020 by glenn239

[seahawk]

 

It would be the worst decision by the west ever made. The Pals won´t trust the force, neither will the right wing Israelis nor the Iranian proxies, nor the Saudi Proxies, nor the UAE proxies, nor the Qatar proxies,...

 

 

 

If you want to stabilize the region, go for green energy so that the Gulf States no longer can sell you energy and are no longer swimming in money they can invest into extending their influence in the region.

 

 

An Eastern block is emerging in the Middle East based on a Sino-Iranian axis. Iran will use this cover to recover its conventional capabilities to a level beyond Israel's capacity to counter.

 

Going forward, the West Bank will be a sucking chest wound for our support of Israel because its a flash point between rival blocks, an issue that the Eastern Bloc can bang on to prevent the Western bloc from supporting Israel. We need to get our house in order in the West Bank and Gaza before Israel becomes completely isolated and lashes out. Israel will not comply with the requirements of the West to help it without being compelled to cooperate by the West. This will no doubt have to include at least a first round of mild UN economic sanctions where the US votes for the sanctions, such that Jerusalem realises they need to comply.

 

Josh is in La La Land about the US Left. His hatred of Trump and the Right blinds him to the reality of the Leftist party he backs. AOC is a backer of Israel? BLM? AOC and BLM don't give a flying fuck about Israel and Josh knows it.

 

For me the key is money. Defending Israel becomes much cheaper when we do not pay the Gulf states for energy. And Iran will also have a much bigger problem rearming when the oil and gas is no longer in demand. As long as we pay the Gulf states to sell us their oil and gas (and not only for the resources but also for letting us buy them), we then pay for Israel to be secure from attacks sponsored by those states. We are in a circle that does not stop. And the more money we sent both sides, the faster the circle spins. So we need to remove this shitload of money from the region.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Seahawk, are you going green?

[JWB]

 

It would be the worst decision by the west ever made. The Pals won´t trust the force, neither will the right wing Israelis nor the Iranian proxies, nor the Saudi Proxies, nor the UAE proxies, nor the Qatar proxies,...

 

 

 

If you want to stabilize the region, go for green energy so that the Gulf States no longer can sell you energy and are no longer swimming in money they can invest into extending their influence in the region.

 

 

An Eastern block is emerging in the Middle East based on a Sino-Iranian axis. Iran will use this cover to recover its conventional capabilities to a level beyond Israel's capacity to counter.

 

 

IDT China is that stupid.

[Stuart Galbraith]

If they were, they would do what they did in the Iran and Iraq war, and arm Iran and Iraq. China gets rich, strategic balance is maintained. And of course, Iraq can actually start affording their product again now.

 

OTOH, maybe China will reflect on why Iran had a revolution in the first place. If you want a stable region, history has proven the one thing you dont want to do is arm Iran to the teeth.

[JWB]

If they were, they would do what they did in the Iran and Iraq war, and arm Iran and Iraq. China gets rich, strategic balance is maintained. And of course, Iraq can actually start affording their product again now.

 

OTOH, maybe China will reflect on why Iran had a revolution in the first place. If you want a stable region, history has proven the one thing you dont want to do is arm Iran to the teeth.

How is China to gain anything by arming Iran and Iraq at a time when those two countries aren't at war?

[Stuart Galbraith]

Glenn is convinced they are going to arm Iran, so IF we assume that is true, and I dont believe it is, but assuming that, the logical thing to do from China's perspective is balance things up and make money off both sides. They were doing that back in the 1980's.

 

And they are war, kinda. Its just done via insurgents and terrorism rather than tanks and artillery. In fact that existed as far back as the Shah, its the reason why the Iraq's signed away half the Shat Al Arab, to try and make him stop.

 

No, I dont think its going to happen, I just thought I would ride the strange torpedo all the way to the target. Im still not convinced.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[JWB]

Glenn is convinced they are going to arm Iran, so IF we assume that is true, and I dont believe it is, but assuming that, the logical thing to do from China's perspective is balance things up and make money off both sides. They were doing that back in the 1980's.

 

And they are war, kinda. Its just done via insurgents and terrorism rather than tanks and artillery. In fact that existed as far back as the Shah, its the reason why the Iraq's signed away half the Shat Al Arab, to try and make him stop.

 

No, I dont think its going to happen, I just thought I would ride the strange torpedo all the way to the target. Im still not convinced.

I see what you are getting at but Glenn is showing another of his journeys into never never land again.

[Mighty_Zuk]

 

 

 

 

 

I simply see no reason for the US to get into a military conflict with Iran given its current behavior. Were it to close the Persian Gulf, well then game on.

Do you see the US in a military conflict with Iran right now? Didn't think so. The US has many allies and many interests in the region. Criticizing post-war the US's decision-making in the process, when there hasn't been a war yet, is just your simultaneous fantasies conflicting with each other.

 

People criticizing Israel, KSA, UAE, or other gulf countries for instigating a war with Iran that hasn't happened yet, are abundant.

Make no mistake, they're absolutely retarded. Don't be in that bunch, Josh.

 

Also, Josh, what annexation exactly?

Annexation of the entire West Bank? You have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of Gaza? You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Annexation of the Jordan Valley? That plan was already executed, albeit with only a partial success.

Here has been my view on it. America is, sooner or later, going to tire of Israel. They do with ALL of their allies at some point, even us. So you have at this moment a favourable opportunity to get peace with Palestine and thence a good shot at the rest of the Arab world. Saudia Arabia is the prize, the UAE is just a stepping stone to get there.

 

So this continual prevarication is not going to suit Israel in the long term. When the US eventually pulls the plug on all that economic support ( and America in its demography is changing, to the point where its far from certain there is going to be any votes in supporting Israel) then you are going to have to do it when its going to look desperate. And I dont think at that point its going to get as good a deal.

 

Yes, im aware the Palestinians are just as intractable. If anything they have demonstrated the same mistake, they waiting until everyone lost interest in them. They will never get as good terms as they would have done say, 10 years ago.

 

Im sure I said all this 10 years ago, and I was ridiculed then by an Israeli poster. I dont see support in the US firming up. For all the superlatives written of Trump, what has he done? He has avoided confronting Iran, despite having missiles fired at Iraqi bases, and now armed an Arab nation with the same weapons you thought gave you ascendency over all others, without apparently even telling you first.

 

And that's your best ally at the moment. Yes, you can do worse, and probably will.

And yet you have no alternative to suggest. No political move Israel could make.

 

Criticism is entirely invalid if an alternative is not presented. Since you, admittedly, cannot present an alternative, your criticism is invalid.

 

There is no peace proposal Israel didn't accept, even unknowing the terms, only because it trusted the US as an ally to form something it can work with. There is no peace proposal Palestine didn't reject, and eventually didn't regret.

 

If we won't have the US, we'll have another superpower to back us up. Israel is a very lucrative ally for anyone. Economically, technologically, geographically, militarily. But it won't affect policy towards the Palestinians. If Israeli leadership really cared about the opinions of others when it comes to issues of survival, it would probably be a Soviet satellite state.

 

At some point Zionism was officially, internationally recognized as a form of racism. So you're greatly exaggerating the importance of international opinion.

Im pretty sure I already did. You have already said there has been compromise on both sides. If I was Bibi, id be more minded to compromise and get a deal now, because the payoff is going to be better.

Look at it like this, lets suppose Iran is going to collapse next week. The week after, the Arabs announce its back to normal in relations with Israel, because they no longer have no need of it.

 

Inevitably, the longer Israel leaves it, the worse its going to be. Bite the bullet now whilst everyone is onside. Then when the Palestinians fuck it up, as they probably will, you have the moral high ground.

 

 

I think you are greatly exaggerating the lack of importance of international opinion. In 1956, in 1967, in 1973, Israel always had a rich backer. Its never faced its interlocutors alone, not even in 1982. In 1973 that was crucial. I think we may end up viewing Trump as the high water mark. America needs Israel a lot less these days, in that its not fighting the war on terror, and its attempting to have as little to do with the middle east.

 

 

Why does China need Israel? Its more interested in backing the gulf states these days. They just dont have the sentimental attachment America has had. France? Russia? They are bankrupt, and their equipment isnt a patch on what you are used to.

 

No peace proposal Israel didnt accept? So the stories about Carter locking Sadat and Begin in a room till he got a deal are completely manufactured then?

You didn't understand my point. Saying Bibi should compromise more, is not an alternative. You're not specifying on what he should compromise. Basically every compromise made prior to the Gaza issue, has been repeated by Bibi. In fact, he may not have learned the Gaza lesson either. In 2020 he accepted Trump's plan despite it calling to triple the size of Gaza.

In 2014 he negotiated based on Obama's terms but the talks blew up when Abbas decided he wants to get some political favors just to start negotiating (the very definition of not negotiating in good spirit).

 

 

Basically, be more specific. What do you want Israel to do? Accept 10 million Palestinian "refugees"? Give up the entire J&S region? Expand Gaza? Give up Jerusalem? Whatever ridiculous move you want it to make, you gotta specify it before having a debate.

 

Or in other words, good intentions mean nothing if you can't back them with actions.