What-Ever Happened To The Vickers Mk7 Mbt?

[DB]

Quality of design inversely proportional to the size of the committee involved in it.

[zaarin7]

I don't know if the Cruiser Tank Mk. IV had been equped with 6 pdr. when it came out (1940) it would have been a good tank for what it was facing in 1940-41.

[bojan]

2pdr penetrated everything in 1940 and most things in 1941. Effort would have been better spent getting them reliable.

[Wiedzmin]

2pdr penetrated everything in 1940 and most things in 1941. Effort would have been better spent getting them reliable.

 

when 2pdr was tested in soviet union it doesnt penetrate PZIII front from point blank IIRC

[bojan]

Which one? 30, 50mm or 60mm front armor?

[Wiedzmin]

my fault, stug3 with 50mm armor.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/zj45omgjjjq/Obstrel_nem.pdf

 

if you read russian download this PDF

[bojan]

Tnx.

[zaarin7]

When 2 pdr was introduced in 1937 it was a world class gun. The vast majority of tanks were using 20mm, 25mm, 37mm and 45mm. Its main problem was the 6 pdr was sealed in 1940 after or around Dunkirk when Great Britain could not afford to retool so had to keep making 2 pdr. As pointed out it did great in 1940 but it was not suited to the desert.

[Ken Estes]

Alan Brooke recorded in his diary that they had the choice after Dunkirk of taking 600 2-pdrs or 200 6-pdrs from the production line and chose the former. David Fletcher told me in 2013 that this was correct.

[Ken Estes]

Come on Stuart. In the aftermath of Dunkirk, which would you choose, exclusive of ammo considerations; more or fewer guns?

[Manic Moran]

The turret did have a second chance, being used on Osorio

[Ken Estes]

I'd say there had to be at least a trickle of 6-pdrs from the factories, else how could they show up in time for El Alamein?

[DougRichards]

I'd say there had to be at least a trickle of 6-pdrs from the factories, else how could they show up in time for El Alamein?

 

Which El Alamein?

 

For El Alamein 1 (July 1942) : By May 1942 1,500 guns per month were coming out of British factories. Yes, some would have probably made it to North Afrika.

 

By El Alamein 2 (Oct-Nov 1942) there certainly would have been 6pdrs in North Africa. Especially as 17pdrs were flown out to Africa for mounting on 25pdr carriages late in 1942.

Edited December 31, 2015 by DougRichards

[Ken Estes]

1500 6-pdrs per month?

[swerve]

I'd say there had to be at least a trickle of 6-pdrs from the factories, else how could they show up in time for El Alamein?

One widely derided source says it saw action at Gazala in May 1942. I find that credible.

[Colin]

6pdr production was also barrel length limited due to the lack of large lathes that could handle the longer barrels.

[Ken Estes]

Hell, they got so desperate at Gazala that they dragged four 3.7" HAA into the Cauldron for supposed AT use, but to no avail.

[Jim Warford]

Just to help clarify things...

 

Vijayanta on display - Indian Army:

 

 

Vickers Mk 3 - Kenyan Army in 2010:

 

 

Vickers Mk 3 in Kenya in 2015:

 

 

Vickers Mk 7 video:

 

[Gavin-Phillips]

Fine looking vehicle is the Mk7! Can't help but think that video makes it sound like its powered by a GM Detroit Diesel (known rather sarcastically in the trucking/plant industry as a "Screamer" due to the high-pitched whine at even moderate RPM). Great footage though.

 

The Japanese seem to have some success with their Type 90 and somewhat lighter Type 10 MBT's. Could this "heavy/light MBT" approach have worked well for the British Army?

[JasonJ]

Fine looking vehicle is the Mk7! Can't help but think that video makes it sound like its powered by a GM Detroit Diesel (known rather sarcastically in the trucking/plant industry as a "Screamer" due to the high-pitched whine at even moderate RPM). Great footage though.

 

The Japanese seem to have some success with their Type 90 and somewhat lighter Type 10 MBT's. Could this "heavy/light MBT" approach have worked well for the British Army?

 

AFAIK, there was no design intention for creating 2 weight classes of MBTs. The Type 90 has been a little heavier than the Japanese would like but if they were to get comparable armor to that of Leopard2A4, Leclerc, and M1A1, the heavy weight was necessary. The Type 10 achieves both the preference for lower weight and yet, better armor than Type 90. The low weight preference is evident in their Type 61 and Type 74 tanks, both weighing 36 and 38 tons respectively, quite lighter than their western counterparts like M48 and Centurion. Type 61 design also had basis in the idea from France that little armor and light weight is better because of the development of better HEAT and anti-tank missiles, thus AMX-30 is just as light.

Edited January 3, 2016 by JasonJ

[scotsman]

Hey Ken...

 

Do you have a reference handy for the proposed 3.7" use?

[Ken Estes]

Not at the moment, I'm on the road. We participated in the thread on Dual Purpose AAA a couple of years ago and I mentioned it there, with a citation.

 

Googling around I get this:

 

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/3970-37in-aa-gun-not-used-as-at-gun/ see post #26

[scotsman]

Thanks - I've done a lot of deep dive on 3.7" in the AT role and there is no doubt that the ammunition and the Tobruk site mod was present in North Africa. Larkhill records confirmed that the gunners were trained locally in AT and retrofitted their guns in the field - agree with the previous poster that the sight ring size seems to indicate the 6pdr sight was certainly used on some of those mods.

 

The bottom line to 3.7" AT is that the gun was capable, it had the ammunition, and the local field modification to fight as an ATG in North Africa...but it's value and scarcity as HAA precluded anything but emergency use until later - by which time many more ATG were available and the need had passed.

 

Nevertheless - from what I have been able to determine - it could have been so used had that decision ever been made...

 

I own a round of 3.7" AP

[Ken Estes]

Ha! I used to carry a 90mm AP round for many years, but just got tired of packing it up for every move.

[Ken Estes]

I still have my two 90mm brass ctg cases, those are worth something, like table lamps.