Mobius Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) Some problems are not the equal of others. The untreated end result then is that Western cities will have all the infrastructure of fallujah. But hey in the UK that may be hate speech. And someone could be arrested for that. Unless the live in a no-go zone. Then of course it doesn't count. Edited March 25, 2016 by Mobius
DADI Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 What I do think is that the inability to identify danger is the 'real problem'.Political Correctness is a killer. What I find arogant is the "failed policies we have tried on the Middle East" comment. Such as? We have promoted peace efforts, we have fought proxy wars, we have fought real wars, we have kept tyrants in place, reformers in place, deposed tyrants, deposed reformers, sanctions, reopening access to markets, every single combination of the above and then some. Whats arrogant about recognising that the West has tired every combination of approaches to encourage middle east peace and stability over the past 50 decades, and its more unstable than ever. There is no joined up thinking, no plan, no real understanding of the issues. And ever time we have engaged in the middle east, we have consumed yet more military resources we could use for our own defence at home. The Bush doctrine didnt work. The Reagan doctrine didnt work. The Eisenhower doctrine didnt work. The Eden doctrine didnt work. That not arrogant. Its recognising the self evident. Forgot to mention draw and inflict borders, impose statehood on tribes,clans, religouse fractions and peoples, who hate eachother, kill eachother for centuries, and sure as hell do not want to live with eachother under the same flag, regime or tyrant, all to match the shortsighted interests of the relevant party.After doing that - Support the tyrant that is murdering his people, or overthrow the tyrent that is providing the country an inch of stability, again - to provide only the interests of the great western empire involved. Yes, political correctness is a killer. So whats your alternative? I keep hearing how we in the west are clueless, politically correct, overwhelmed by the problem. Please, advocate an approach that doesnt have us behaving like the worst of totalitarian regimes. Im happy to try anything that doesnt turn us into the 4th Reich overnight. Political correctness is the new god that is the reason for actions mentioned above, to be made today, and even "hoped for the future".This is all very simple.Even Israel, with one of the most powerful supreme courts in the Democratic world, managed to do this lately to the "Islamic Movement Northern Fraction" in Israel, after many years of advocating violence, terror and war:OUT LAW THE SOBs ...Out law - DAESH, Jabhat ..., Ansar ..., IHH, Hizballah, Hamas, IJ, WJ, AQ ....LIke laws against drugs - Every time there is a new one - put it in the list, by law.Then - Inflict Anti-Terror laws. Shut down Madrasas in Birmingham calling for Jihad, Confiscate money, Gather intelligence, make arrests, put these guys to justice according to anti-terror laws.Or don't... Why is it OK to pursue and inflict investigation methods against money laundering or drug trafficing, but not against terror, and a declared intention of destroying democracy and statehood of peoples, and turn them into DAESH?
Mr King Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) Because the folks in Birmingham are useful to western cultural Marxists. Western culture and society are their greatest enemies above all else. Edited March 25, 2016 by Mr King
DADI Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 Some problems are not the equal of others. The untreated end result then is that Western cities will have all the infrastructure of fallujah. But hey in the UK that may be hate speech. And someone could be arrested for that. Unless the live in a no-go zone. Then of course it doesn't count. No-Go-Zones do not exist in Europe, or so I have been told...
WRW Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 One of my Afghan colleagues after assuring me that the Taliban were really not too bad, then says everyone knows they are creation of ciao and mossad
WRW Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 One of my Afghan colleagues after assuring me that the Taliban were really not too bad, then says everyone knows they are creation of ciao and mossad
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) One of my Afghan colleagues after assuring me that the Taliban were really not too bad, then says everyone knows they are creation of ciao and mossadAfghans have a wonderful way of reinventing their recent history. A recent book on the Afghan war (Afghantsy, well worth getting) relates ex Soviet servicemen returning to Afghanistan being welcomed as being better than Americans, and Najibullah being praised as a great man. After reading that, nothing much would surprise me about them. Some problems are not the equal of others. The untreated end result then is that Western cities will have all the infrastructure of fallujah. But hey in the UK that may be hate speech. And someone could be arrested for that. Unless the live in a no-go zone. Then of course it doesn't count. No-Go-Zones do not exist in Europe, or so I have been told... They dont exist, as long as you ignore them and rip the sign down and dump it in a skip. My father was relating an incident he heard from a work colleague that saw one in Birmingham. OTOH, friend of a friend stories are usually the root of every urban myth story ever made. Id like someone to point out a street to me on Google earth just so I can go down there and be a white lower class oppressor, or exercise one rights to walk where one wants, whichever way one views it. Lets put it this way, dont rely on Donald Trump for your Europe coverage. Edited March 25, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith
Gregory Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 You want to lock all those up, fine, Ive no issue with that. The problem is the real issue is not the ones carrying signs and being a pain in the arse in public. The real problem is the ones who seem nice, adjusted middle class boys who suddenly become suicide bombers, because we have had more than a few in the UK of that sort. Stuart, I don't think you're properly classifying the problem. The nice boys who are blowing up in the malls are like the last death rattle of a patient. If you want to be successful, you don't treat the last symptom of the disease - you deal with it while it's still a curable condition. Those guys and girls in black - they are the first signs of a lethal disease.
Mr King Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 You want to lock all those up, fine, Ive no issue with that. The problem is the real issue is not the ones carrying signs and being a pain in the arse in public. The real problem is the ones who seem nice, adjusted middle class boys who suddenly become suicide bombers, because we have had more than a few in the UK of that sort.Stuart, I don't think you're properly classifying the problem. The nice boys who are blowing up in the malls are like the last death rattle of a patient. If you want to be successful, you don't treat the last symptom of the disease - you deal with it while it's still a curable condition. Those guys and girls in black - they are the first signs of a lethal disease. Well you have to be able to admit capability for the disease's existence first. For many it is more comfortable to look at the symptom and say our society is not inclusive enough, and prattle off about class warfare.
urbanoid Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 .... when the only reliable solution Israel seem to have found to its problems is to build a wall round it. Sorry, couldn't help it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJoMuuE3Eg So you say Israel is the problem? No, 'peace monkeys' are.
sunday Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12204357/Muslim-shopkeeper-murdered-in-suspected-religiously-prejudiced-attack-after-posting-on-Facebook-of-love-for-Christians.html A popular shopkeeper was stabbed to death by another Muslim in a "religiously prejudiced" attack hours after posting an Easter message on Facebook to "my beloved Christian nation".Asad Shah, 40, a devout Muslim originally from the Pakistani city of Rabwah, had his head stamped on during a savage attack, according to one eyewitness. Also in The Guardian If this is that bad as those two pieces of news show...
Mobius Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12204357/Muslim-shopkeeper-murdered-in-suspected-religiously-prejudiced-attack-after-posting-on-Facebook-of-love-for-Christians.html A popular shopkeeper was stabbed to death by another Muslim in a "religiously prejudiced" attack hours after posting an Easter message on Facebook to "my beloved Christian nation".Asad Shah, 40, a devout Muslim originally from the Pakistani city of Rabwah, had his head stamped on during a savage attack, according to one eyewitness. Also in The Guardian If this is that bad as those two pieces of news show...Labeling it "religiously prejudiced" when its murder is ridiculous unless the normal punishment is not very much in years and then goes way up. It is just for the political tally takers so they can point to something as being done. Now, if the crime were vandalism or assault then when religiously prejudiced was added to it the punishment doubled then you are setting a standard.
Roman Alymov Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 Afghans have a wonderful way of reinventing their recent history. A recent book on the Afghan war (Afghantsy, well worth getting) relates ex Soviet servicemen returning to Afghanistan being welcomed as being better than Americans, and Najibullah being praised as a great man. After reading that, nothing much would surprise me about them. Actually it is surprising how US campaign in Afghanistan managed to make pre-dating USSR campaign look not so bad (or even good) both in Afghanistan and in Russia. Quite an achievement. Number of Soviet veterans visited Afganistan, met old enemies and attitude was generally goodhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjZ-sR74e-I
Roman Alymov Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army)
Mr King Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army) You explain to them that they either play nice, or they are right back with them. It is always said living in a western society is a privilege, well it is time it is treated as such, Edited March 26, 2016 by Mr King
Gregory Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army) Given that there are about 500 Muslims serving in British army, I think that's an acceptably low probability event.
DADI Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Because the folks in Birmingham are useful to western cultural Marxists. Western culture and society are their greatest enemies above all else. Yeah, well... Surely you don't mean Western comforts... They don't hate those. Just the sweat, efforts, bravery and sacrifice needed to create and protect these comforts. There was this experiment done by a student in Berkeley (I think)... Messuring public reaction to him holding an Israeli flag and an ISIS flag.Guess which flag got the "murderers" shouts, spitting and cursing, and which not even a whisper.. An Israeli group created two identical facebook pages, same pictures, same posts, just one difference:One said "kill Israelis, the other "kill Palestinians"... Two complaints, one against each, were sent to facebook.The anti-Palestinian page was closed after a few hours. The anti-Israeli page was kept with reply that it "matches criteria"... Further complaints had it closed after a week. As mentioned - many feel that the problem with DAESH is not the mass murder, rape, depoertations and refugee flow...I haven't seen the EU foriegn minister shead a tear for half a million Syrians killed, for the thousands of women raped, forced to convert to Islam and serve as a sex slave for DAESH commanders...It is an authentic Islamic movement. I've heard Comments on the Belgian street: "We should make them feel more at home"... They DO feel at home. This is what their home is like, and has been for a thousand years. They braught their home to the Grand-Platz...The sad part is, that the average Belge might still believe that this is some Foreign News war, that somehow got to his door step by mistake...There is no mistake. The war is un Europe.There is sn enemy. The enemy has goals.The main goal is to make Europe - "UROBA" - a land under the flag of Islam. Nothing short of that. That is what they are saying. I realy can't understand why people choose not to believe them. Edited March 26, 2016 by DADI
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army) You explain to them that they either play nice, or they are right back with them. It is always said living in a western society is a privilege, well it is time it is treated as such, And what do you do with the ones who are born here? Because categorise them how one will, I doubt there is anyone else willing to accept them as a problem. I dont disagree with the sentiment btw, living in western society IS a privilege. But considering the alacrity with which some of the Muslim community depart for a shithole like Syria, Im not sure that they are really considering. They dont identify either with the land in which they are brought up or, in some cases, born into. The ONLY good news about all this, is I suspect our European cousins at the court of human rights might, just might, be rather more willing to sign off on the UK deporting troublemakers, as there will undoubtedly be a clamour to do so across Europe too. The only fly in the ointment is what happens when countries wont accept such people back, and that seems somewhat likely if they have a long track record.
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army) Sure it was not a Commonwealth exchange? I seem to recall they had Jamaicans guarding Buckingham Palace a while back, though I dont believe they ever have Tower Of London. Lots of Fijians serving in the Army these days, and they have a rep for being very good, particularly in Iraq. And when you get down to it, it doesn't really matter. I dont really care what colour someone is, as long as they have internalised British values and try to fit in. The black population of the UK did, albeit with problems mainly related to the people already here. The Muslim population, with many evident exceptions of course, seemingly prefers to ghettoise itself, and that seems to be a trend across Europe. Maybe it will change over time, maybe it wont. I guess all first gen immigrants do that. The problem here is that the numbers have been so high for so long, the dispersal typical of immigrant populations seems to be delayed.
DougRichards Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army) You explain to them that they either play nice, or they are right back with them. It is always said living in a western society is a privilege, well it is time it is treated as such, And what do you do with the ones who are born here? Because categorise them how one will, I doubt there is anyone else willing to accept them as a problem. I dont disagree with the sentiment btw, living in western society IS a privilege. But considering the alacrity with which some of the Muslim community depart for a shithole like Syria, Im not sure that they are really considering. They dont identify either with the land in which they are brought up or, in some cases, born into. The ONLY good news about all this, is I suspect our European cousins at the court of human rights might, just might, be rather more willing to sign off on the UK deporting troublemakers, as there will undoubtedly be a clamour to do so across Europe too. The only fly in the ointment is what happens when countries wont accept such people back, and that seems somewhat likely if they have a long track record. Immigration detention: not as severe as prison, and inmates would be free to leave whenever they want, so long as it was to somewhere outside of the EU. Even offer subsidies to any other country willing to accept them......
Stuart Galbraith Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Forcible repatriation? Sure. Try making that work. The EU has already got legislation to deport refugees, and predictably it fell at the first hurdle. The Greeks understandably dont want to be painted as culpable.I wonder who is going to explain to EU citizen of Arabic or Pakistani origin, serving in police or army, why his brother's family got to be deported out of Europe back into poverty and even hunger. Too late for deportations - i remember being shocked by all-black-skin guards in Tower of London. No single white soldier (may be just coincidence this day, but still far from Victorian books image). P.S. Still Yeoman giving the tour was white and looked like retired specops guy (and he mentioned serving for 20+ years in Army) You explain to them that they either play nice, or they are right back with them. It is always said living in a western society is a privilege, well it is time it is treated as such, And what do you do with the ones who are born here? Because categorise them how one will, I doubt there is anyone else willing to accept them as a problem. I dont disagree with the sentiment btw, living in western society IS a privilege. But considering the alacrity with which some of the Muslim community depart for a shithole like Syria, Im not sure that they are really considering. They dont identify either with the land in which they are brought up or, in some cases, born into. The ONLY good news about all this, is I suspect our European cousins at the court of human rights might, just might, be rather more willing to sign off on the UK deporting troublemakers, as there will undoubtedly be a clamour to do so across Europe too. The only fly in the ointment is what happens when countries wont accept such people back, and that seems somewhat likely if they have a long track record. Immigration detention: not as severe as prison, and inmates would be free to leave whenever they want, so long as it was to somewhere outside of the EU. Even offer subsidies to any other country willing to accept them...... I idly wondered if the way around the recent migrant crisis is to designate territory (defunct military bases being one idea) as Syrian territory, and administrate them via the UN using local laws. That way you can say 'well these people are not naturalised citizens and will go back' and at the same time getting them out of miserable dumps like the migrant camp at Calais. Perhaps even allow them to contribute to local economies. It would allow splitting them from economic migrants who, as far as Im concerned, can get the next plane back. Probably wholly unworkable of course. Particularly if there are any contentious local laws that mean you get your hands lopped off for stealing crisps or something. But then, what we have been doing clearly is not working either. As far as being detained for being implicated in terrorism or hate preaching without necessarily breaking the law, its one of those slippery slopes that the more you think about, the less it seems like a good idea. In the UK, one cant help but note that anti terror laws eventually get used on everything. IE surveillance laws meant that local councils were using them to identify dogs that fowled footpaths and prosecute them, which seems like the banal end of 1984 to me. So beign who we are, I guarantee you would have pensioners under detention for bill sticking before long. Internment like we did in Northern ireland for a while seems like a good idea. Except those people arent going away, nobody else wants them, and you end up looking like the kind of people you are fighting against. The nearest we got was interning 'aliens' on the Isle of Man during the Second world war, and even then there were aberrations of people who had mixed parentage. Im not one of these wet and weedy liberals, If there is strong action that will work, it could and should be taken. The problem arises in my mind, how easy it is to bring those powers to bear on a section of society without becoming some kind of fascist state and pouring petrol on the embers. Its less about being fair im worried about. Its bending Society all out of shape to deal with terrorism, which is surely one of the things the terrorists are trying to push us to do and destroy our own freedoms. Edited March 26, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith
DADI Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) The center weight has shifted.It's amuzing to see how a pillar of civilian rights, like Switzerland, bans minarets, or does not allow refugees to spend time in public places, like in a library.If British law inforcement or justice system can not limit it self to what the laws were made for, and there is no higher instance that can be approached to fix distractions - Than this is a weakness that must be addressed, if you seek life.A solid moral spine, is not less of a defense, than the willingness to use force when needed.Personaly, I did not think GB lacked either, just suffering from that paralizing disease as we mentioned befor (a disease shared by most of the western world - even Israel - but have become terminal in certain countries such as Belgium or Sweden).You know why Muslims, in Muslim neighborhoods, do not spit out the Imams who convince their young to join DAESH - Operatives who use them as a shield and hiding place from law inforcement?You know why?Because the government does not and will not protect them from the revenge of Allah executed by some low life across the street. Because No-GO-Zones exist in the mind of every police man in Brussels or Malmo.Muslims are the main victims, by great numbers, of Muslim terror. With no comparison to any other group.That is true in regard to every Muslim terror organization ever - From the PLO to Hizballah, Hamas to IJ, from AQ to the Taliban and DAESH to Boko Haram.During the "Great Arab Revolt" in Palestine, 1936-1939, there were some 100 British casualties, a few hundred Jewish casualties - and more than 5000 Arabs killed. Some 2000 by British forces - The rest by other Arabs... Unlike lawers, that 99% of them give bad reputation to the rest, the support for terror against the infidels among the Muslims around the world, is 20%-30%, with many of them puting the wish for a quiet life in a much higher place. If they are scared by the terrorists, more than the certainty of living a good life while kicking them out - Than they will harbor terrorists - and become terrorists.Impotent governments and law inforcement incourage terrorists to act. Edited March 26, 2016 by DADI
DADI Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) Double post... Smartphones... Edited March 26, 2016 by DADI
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