120 Dead In Paris

[Mobius]

Belgium only allocated 50 million Euros for anti-terrorism last year. I asked this question of another country in another thread.

"How many Divisions does Belgium have?" Apparently they need other countries to bring j'accuse to court.

[Roman Alymov]

The Russians have killed more DAESH in 6 months than NATO has in 2.5 years. They have brought the first semblance of a ceasefire and peace process in 5 years of war. They have confronted Team Sunni while Europe appeases them and pays danegeld.

I think correct form is not "Russians" but "SAA, Iranian and Hesbola ground forces + some Rus SpecOps+RusAF". Boots on the ground to do actual fighting (and taking the ground) is key component. And Syrians where ones paying heavy price in blood for fighting IS&Co.

[Simon Tan]

The do nothing's excuse for doing nothing. In the case of the UK .... they really cannot do much more than gestures intended for political consumption.

[Paul G.]

Roman no villages in those target areas. There is no issue with using area weapons on area targets. Mistargeting is always a problem when lacking ground source info. Hence the restricted ROE. You are not paying attention or you would know Al Nusra is considered in the same group as IS by the US.

[crazyinsane105]

 

Birganza, there are lots of poorly educated yokels with no opportunity and who are deeply superstitious all over the US. We are struck with a large quantity of Hatfields and McCoys who routinely blow up scores if not hundreds of people.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what sort of horrid conditions Europeans are subjecting muslims to that makes so many of them hell bent on killing Europeans and others.

 

Well in part it seems Ghettoisation, though one has to say this seems quite often to be a self imposed choice. Rather than live in a wider society of the nation they join, they prefer to form little Pakistans or Kabuls. Which works brilliantly, right upt to the point when you realise they identify more with the culture of the homeland they left rather than the state they joined.

 

 

One of my dad's far off relatives lives in London and he is a lifelong academic at a prestigious British institute. His studies are concentrated on how South Asians, specifically those from Muslim countries, have assimilated into British society. His take on this is quite interesting...a number of immigrants who come from overseas will get together and live just like it's Pakistan for example. The problem is that these folks will continue on living in a culture that more or less no longer exists in their home country. So basically, a lot of South Asians in the UK continue traditions that were very common place in the 1950's in Pakistan (things like cousin marriages) but those living in Pakistan are no longer doing it.

 

The biggest problems in the Muslim community aren't those who immigrated from other countries and settled into the West. Very likely they may be following the same old traditions and cultures that were set back in the 50s or 60s when jihadism wasn't even a thing. The problem are the kids of these immigrants growing up...the kids who are born and raised in Western society, have Western citizenship, and a number who have grown up in hard poverty without a community they can relate too. They won't adhere to their parent's odd cultural norms and are looking for something else. Couple this with a lack of jobs and overall opportunity presented to their community and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Unless Europe can figure out how to better assimilate their current citizens who have immigrant roots, it may not be the wisest idea to keep accepting boatloads more of them regardless of country/ethnicity/religion.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ah, my rusty Russian made me pick the first 'promising' find. I guess Stuart won't have to be liberated in the end.

A little mood music for my liberators from oppression.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

Birganza, there are lots of poorly educated yokels with no opportunity and who are deeply superstitious all over the US. We are struck with a large quantity of Hatfields and McCoys who routinely blow up scores if not hundreds of people.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what sort of horrid conditions Europeans are subjecting muslims to that makes so many of them hell bent on killing Europeans and others.

 

Well in part it seems Ghettoisation, though one has to say this seems quite often to be a self imposed choice. Rather than live in a wider society of the nation they join, they prefer to form little Pakistans or Kabuls. Which works brilliantly, right upt to the point when you realise they identify more with the culture of the homeland they left rather than the state they joined.

 

 

One of my dad's far off relatives lives in London and he is a lifelong academic at a prestigious British institute. His studies are concentrated on how South Asians, specifically those from Muslim countries, have assimilated into British society. His take on this is quite interesting...a number of immigrants who come from overseas will get together and live just like it's Pakistan for example. The problem is that these folks will continue on living in a culture that more or less no longer exists in their home country. So basically, a lot of South Asians in the UK continue traditions that were very common place in the 1950's in Pakistan (things like cousin marriages) but those living in Pakistan are no longer doing it.

 

The biggest problems in the Muslim community aren't those who immigrated from other countries and settled into the West. Very likely they may be following the same old traditions and cultures that were set back in the 50s or 60s when jihadism wasn't even a thing. The problem are the kids of these immigrants growing up...the kids who are born and raised in Western society, have Western citizenship, and a number who have grown up in hard poverty without a community they can relate too. They won't adhere to their parent's odd cultural norms and are looking for something else. Couple this with a lack of jobs and overall opportunity presented to their community and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Unless Europe can figure out how to better assimilate their current citizens who have immigrant roots, it may not be the wisest idea to keep accepting boatloads more of them regardless of country/ethnicity/religion.

 

You're right that is interesting.

 

Where I live, in the west of the country, there isnt really many muslim communities. The nearest I get to seeing many of them is when I go shopping in Gloucester, the nearest major city, and even then they are remarkably thin on the ground. It seems that they gravitate towards london or some of the former Northern Industrial towns, ie Bradford, quite a long way form where I live.

 

But I have worked with Muslims. One of them was a Pakistani, nice enough fellow I guess other than his remarkable willigness to believe in the Royal Navy's apparent incursion into Iranian waters, that the British were wholly to blame and Iran wasnt. Like really deprecatory. I found that kind of cultural disconnect, ie working in one nation and identifying more with another, really somewhat alarming. He was also a misogynist prick, though perhaps that was more down to his creed than where he actually came from, I dont know. The other was a Somalian, again, a very nice guy, but his alarming rhetoric towards the Americans based on the Black Hawk down incident again, the cultural disconnect I found somewhat alarming. I mean, you happily live and work in the West, then spout hatred towards someone who tried to put your country back on its feet? It wasnt so much what he was saying, ie that it was a mistake, than the bile that came with it. Nice man though apart from that strangely.

 

As I say, I liked both of them. That they both seemed aloof and disconnected from the country in which they live has to be regarded as at least part of the reason for the problem we have at being unable to integrate many of these communities. And that surely has to be one of the reasons why some of them identify so easily with ISIS than the country in which they were born or lived for so long.

 

So yeah, Arthur Wellesley was right unfortunately.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[DougRichards]

slow reaction - deleted

Edited March 24, 2016 by DougRichards

[DougRichards]

 

 

Birganza, there are lots of poorly educated yokels with no opportunity and who are deeply superstitious all over the US. We are struck with a large quantity of Hatfields and McCoys who routinely blow up scores if not hundreds of people.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what sort of horrid conditions Europeans are subjecting muslims to that makes so many of them hell bent on killing Europeans and others.

 

Well in part it seems Ghettoisation, though one has to say this seems quite often to be a self imposed choice. Rather than live in a wider society of the nation they join, they prefer to form little Pakistans or Kabuls. Which works brilliantly, right upt to the point when you realise they identify more with the culture of the homeland they left rather than the state they joined.

 

 

One of my dad's far off relatives lives in London and he is a lifelong academic at a prestigious British institute. His studies are concentrated on how South Asians, specifically those from Muslim countries, have assimilated into British society. His take on this is quite interesting...a number of immigrants who come from overseas will get together and live just like it's Pakistan for example. The problem is that these folks will continue on living in a culture that more or less no longer exists in their home country. So basically, a lot of South Asians in the UK continue traditions that were very common place in the 1950's in Pakistan (things like cousin marriages) but those living in Pakistan are no longer doing it.

 

The biggest problems in the Muslim community aren't those who immigrated from other countries and settled into the West. Very likely they may be following the same old traditions and cultures that were set back in the 50s or 60s when jihadism wasn't even a thing. The problem are the kids of these immigrants growing up...the kids who are born and raised in Western society, have Western citizenship, and a number who have grown up in hard poverty without a community they can relate too. They won't adhere to their parent's odd cultural norms and are looking for something else. Couple this with a lack of jobs and overall opportunity presented to their community and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Unless Europe can figure out how to better assimilate their current citizens who have immigrant roots, it may not be the wisest idea to keep accepting boatloads more of them regardless of country/ethnicity/religion.

 

 

It isn't just Islamic types.

 

I knew a number of girls of Greek and Italian backgrounds back in the 1980s, whose parents came to Australia in the 1950s and 1960s, and who were stuck in the cultural norms of Greece and Italy of when they left, and could not change.

 

The girls loved going back to Greece and Italy, because they could party there in ways that their parents would not accept in Australia, because 'Greek girls didn't act that way'.

 

But the problem is, that back home in Islamic countries, things have not moved on from the 50s (the eleven-fifties ADs that is....).

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

No Simon, the reason why we dont kill Daesh is because we dont use unguided weapons and actually give a toss where we deploy ordinance. You know, In case RT puts a rant up about British pilots being clueless and killing civilians as they never will about their own airforce.

 

Even leaving politics aside (as i did not see how all this AlNusra&co any better then IS) - correct me if i am wrong when believing guided weapons developed in the end of Cold War to kill more enemies at less price, not less enemies at higher price. If your own weapons too expensive to be used - well, isn't it wrong?

But in reality Forces of Good are not so hesitate to use unguided bombs as you portray it (in addition to some (un)lucky guided munitions killing scores of civilians if mistargeted)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IcvjD4VVjY

 

Absolutely. In that respect I dont disregard the Russians using unguided ordinance is a bad idea, in the right context. If they were bombarding relatively unpopulated hillsides it would be a slam dunk as far as Im concerned. We did the same thing with the Mau Mau and IIRC perhaps V bombers in Borneo. Its more an issue of targeting, and lets be frank here, this is a problem the RUAF has known about since Georgia. I think whats been happening is they have been taking target lists from Syria and not asking hard questions about what they are.

 

But getting back to cheap weapons, yes you are right. In fact I think it was Chris or Swerve on another thread who even suggested that it would be a good idea if we developed a laser guided CRV7 rocket. IE, its a cheap weapon, lots available in a rocket pod, and accurate.

 

Instead we used weapons better suited for WW3, and thereby make our own airforce pretty much useless for insurgency or counter terror operations. But then maybe that serves us right for not using Apaches or binning Harrier.

 

RE B52 in the above video. I seem to recall for the most part the USAF were using JDAM's, which rather than carpet bombing turned them into the worlds largest CAS aircraft. There probably were exceptions, but it doesnt seem to have been the rule.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[MiloMorai]

Belgian screw up, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/bomb-attacks-show-how-belgium-became-an-incubator-of-terror/2016/03/23/79539218-f14b-11e5-89c3-a647fcce95e0_story.html

 

The Belgian police have also been hampered by bizarre rules. According to Belgian Justice Minister Koen Geens, just two days after the Paris attacks Abdeslam was “likely in a flat in Molenbeek.” But because of the country’s penal code, which prohibits raids between 9 p.m. and 5 a.m. unless a crime is in progress or in case of fire, police were ordered to wait until dawn to pursue him. By then, Abdeslam was nowhere to be seen.

 

[Murph]

Don't laugh, we have the same rules: No warrants served after 10 pm, and before 5 am. It pisses off the voters apparently. Now if we are at the house for a reason, then those rules are not in effect.

 

 

Belgian screw up, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/bomb-attacks-show-how-belgium-became-an-incubator-of-terror/2016/03/23/79539218-f14b-11e5-89c3-a647fcce95e0_story.html

 

The Belgian police have also been hampered by bizarre rules. According to Belgian Justice Minister Koen Geens, just two days after the Paris attacks Abdeslam was “likely in a flat in Molenbeek.” But because of the country’s penal code, which prohibits raids between 9 p.m. and 5 a.m. unless a crime is in progress or in case of fire, police were ordered to wait until dawn to pursue him. By then, Abdeslam was nowhere to be seen.

 

[rmgill]

Does it stop putting an officer or three on the house to watch to make sure a person of interest doesn't slip out?

[swerve]

Laser guided CRV7 rockets exist. Turkey's developed one & there are a couple of US models (at least one in service).

 

We have our own light laser-guided rocket, the Martlet. Someone realised that we'd ordered more Starstreak MANPADS than we could find a use for, & switched funds. Back end of a Starstreak with a new front end = helicopter/UAV/etc. launched light air-ground missile, much smaller & cheaper than the likes of Brimstone. And for a cheaper version still, the manufacturers have come up with a gliding model weighing only 6kg, ideal for plinking technicals from UAVs.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Laser guided CRV7 rockets exist. Turkey's developed one & there are a couple of US models (at least one in service).

 

We have our own light laser-guided rocket, the Martlet. Someone realised that we'd ordered more Starstreak MANPADS than we could find a use for, & switched funds. Back end of a Starstreak with a new front end = helicopter/UAV/etc. launched light air-ground missile, much smaller & cheaper than the likes of Brimstone. And for a cheaper version still, the manufacturers have come up with a gliding model weighing only 6kg, ideal for plinking technicals from UAVs.

That has got to be a much better option than trying to play wack the mole with Brimstone. Can it be integrated with Typhoon?

[swerve]

Dunno. May not work on fast jets.

[Ssnake]

Drop laser-guided sharks, then.

[T-44]

 

Don't laugh, we have the same rules: No warrants served after 10 pm, and before 5 am. It pisses off the voters apparently. Now if we are at the house for a reason, then those rules are not in effect.

 

 

Belgian screw up, https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/bomb-attacks-show-how-belgium-became-an-incubator-of-terror/2016/03/23/79539218-f14b-11e5-89c3-a647fcce95e0_story.html

 

The Belgian police have also been hampered by bizarre rules. According to Belgian Justice Minister Koen Geens, just two days after the Paris attacks Abdeslam was “likely in a flat in Molenbeek.” But because of the country’s penal code, which prohibits raids between 9 p.m. and 5 a.m. unless a crime is in progress or in case of fire, police were ordered to wait until dawn to pursue him. By then, Abdeslam was nowhere to be seen.

 

 

It's not even only the penal code, changing the rule and allowing for 24/24 raids would entail changing the constitution as well - and a constitutional change spans at least two consecutive elections / governments (the first stipulates which articles are open for amendment, then the newly elected parlement must vote with a 2/3 majority required). But as noted by Murph, I don't think were all that unique with such strict rules.

Edited March 24, 2016 by T-44

[BansheeOne]

Drop laser-guided sharks, then.

 

 

http://www.aeromedia.it/lb2426.html

[DB]

Still doesn't explain Eben Emael.

 

Anyway, weird legal oddities aside, it seems clear that the Belgians appear to have been asleep for too long regarding their brand of semi-imported and second generation terrorism.

 

Who is next, I wonder?

[Josh]

It seems to me whoever has been making all this explosive is still at large. There's a facility some where storing and creating TATP and none of the raids to date seem to indicate the source has been found. This particular attack got forced because of the arrest Friday it seems, but never the less the network doesn't seem completely taken down.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Drop laser-guided sharks, then.

Passe. Air dropped crocodiles are the real killer.

[Panzermann]

How do you pay rent and chocolate as a terrorist in Belgium?

 

You work at the the Doel Nuclear Power Plant of course! With passed security screening and everything.

 

http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/syriestrijder-had-jarenlang-toegang-tot-kerncentrale-doel-b08e2a97

 

http://www.demorgen.be/buitenland/syriestrijder-die-in-doel-werkte-mogelijk-gedood-b952cc0c/

 

In one of the apartments searched they found 10h of video of a belgian nuclear scientist.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Panzermann

[Roman Alymov]

Roman no villages in those target areas. There is no issue with using area weapons on area targets. Mistargeting is always a problem when lacking ground source info. Hence the restricted ROE. You are not paying attention or you would know Al Nusra is considered in the same group as IS by the US.

How could you know there are no villages there? Re " Al Nusra is considered in the same group as IS by the US" - no idea about US, but BBC treat them as "opposition forces"

Edited March 24, 2016 by Roman Alymov

[Jeff]

 

Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. These deaths are without meaning. Much like Paris. It will continue to happen because there is no consequence to this.

I would tend to agree with this. After the last Paris attacks with a lot saying war has been declared and all that, wot we get are just punitive airstrikes.

 

Sorry, but I'm with Simon on this one. Getting a bit tired already with such events and knowing not much will change. Sorry if I sound so callous. I was shocked alright, and am saddened for what happened, but all that is tempered with the knowledge that nothing much will change to prevent this and solve the greater problem. Call me cynical, alas that's the way I see it so far since last year.

 

 

I'm sick and tired of moments of silence, ad hoc memorials of flowers and candles, and meaningless words from politicians about "standing frim together" and "we're in a war". I'm tired of useless gestures that aren't backed up by resolve and action. I've seen little to nothing that tells me that anyone is serious about doing anything but placating the masses to get past the next election. A few dozen dead citizens from time to time is a hell of a lot easier to deal with than being serious about ending this scourge on civilization. Will the last person in Western Civilization please turn the light out when you leave.