120 Dead In Paris

[BillB]

 

 

Three metro stations.

 

Guess revenge for the recent arrests?

Pretty fast off the mark to organise something like this in a matter of hours. My money would be on the Belge authorities having info about this when they closed the place down over the New Year, and the bad guys stepping back for another go later (now).

 

BillB

 

With Brussels beginning to show that they're waking up (vis-a-vis the recent raids, however poorly executed), this may have been a "parting shot" from the (this?) Brussels cell, especially with them likely being known to the captured scumbag.

 

One can hope so, anyway. I lived in Brussels for nearly 4 years back at the turn of the century. Whilst it wasn't a perfect place, I liked it a lot and am saddened by recent events.

 

Yes, heard a Belgian talking head speculating that the baddies went for it before becoming compromised, altho he also said they think the attacks had been long planned due to their co-ordinated nature.

 

BillB

[BillB]

 

 

Three metro stations.

 

Guess revenge for the recent arrests?

Pretty fast off the mark to organise something like this in a matter of hours. My money would be on the Belge authorities having info about this when they closed the place down over the New Year, and the bad guys stepping back for another go later (now).

 

BillB

 

With Brussels beginning to show that they're waking up (vis-a-vis the recent raids, however poorly executed), this may have been a "parting shot" from the (this?) Brussels cell, especially with them likely being known to the captured scumbag.

 

One can hope so, anyway. I lived in Brussels for nearly 4 years back at the turn of the century. Whilst it wasn't a perfect place, I liked it a lot and am saddened by recent events.

 

Yes, heard a Belgian talking head speculating that the baddies went for it before becoming compromised, altho he also said they think the attacks had been long planned due to their co-ordinated nature.

 

BillB

[BillB]

 

 

Three metro stations.

 

Guess revenge for the recent arrests?

Pretty fast off the mark to organise something like this in a matter of hours. My money would be on the Belge authorities having info about this when they closed the place down over the New Year, and the bad guys stepping back for another go later (now).

 

BillB

 

Speculation that they went ahead in a hurry for fear of being compromised after the raids.

 

I've visited Brussels a few times, & always enjoyed it. Good beer, good food, amiable locals in my experience.

 

Ref the first bit yes, as I said to DB. Ref the second bit, me too but I found the Arab bits a tad uncomfortable even a decade or more ago. And from what I've seen from Brit expats on other forums Molenbeek (sp?) is an Arab/Moslem version of the Bogside during the Troubles, and has been for a fair while.

 

BillB

[Mr King]

Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. These deaths are without meaning. Much like Paris. It will continue to happen because there is no consequence to this.

I would tend to agree with this. After the last Paris attacks with a lot saying war has been declared and all that, wot we get are just punitive airstrikes.

Sorry, but I'm with Simon on this one. Getting a bit tired already with such events and knowing not much will change. Sorry if I sound so callous. I was shocked alright, and am saddened for what happened, but all that is tempered with the knowledge that nothing much will change to prevent this and solve the greater problem. Call me cynical, alas that's the way I see it so far since last year.

 

 

 

This stuff is a symptom of the stupid we have had forced on us by the navel gazing jackasses who come from our own society. Nothing will change until we start holding them personally responsible.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Mr King

[BillB]

Easy to scapegoat her for this, but I have no doubt that the bad actors would have been able to embed themselves in Europe without the current migrant issues and the European response to them.

 

And E5M's protestations notwithstanding, you can't machine gun the boats they're using to get here, our societal values such as they are will not allow it. If that means we're all doomed as a society, then the vandals are welcome to the hell they'll inherit. I happen to believe that our way is better than theirs and will win out eventually.

While Mutti Merkel's "come one, come all" call hasn't helped I broadly agree, altho that doesn't alter the fact that the root of the problem is the authorities across Europe including the UK being far too accepting of jihadis returning from fighting in various ME conflict zones.

 

Ref the second bit, we could however start implementing the law by returning the chancers whence they came rather than machine-gunning them. And I suspect our societal values will be in for a bit of drastic revision if/when Joe & Joanne Public realise that they are facing a cultural existential threat to their share of the gravy.

 

BillB

[BillB]

The Charlie Hebdo attack was perpetuated by people who were in the EU long before the Syrian crisis. So have all the other previous attacks. Im sure that subsequently we will see many more refugees (or people pretending to be refugees) taking part in these attacks just as we did with the Paris attack, but its not as if we didnt have a long standing problem already. You cant dump it all in Angela Merkels lap. We have a problem with terrorists who were born here but seem more easily to identify with a bunch of head chopping fuckwits in the sandy place. Not much you can do to legislate for stupidity unfortunately.

 

A British comedian once said that you can be born in a stable and it doesnt make you a horse. Which is probably vilely politically incorrect, but at least as far as Europe's terrorist problem pretty much spot on.

Ref the bolded bit, I thought the comedian was the Duke of Wellington. Ref the first bit, no you can't dump it all on Merkel but her incomprehensible behaviour has made the problem immensely worse by providing a blanket to camouflage the ingress of baddies and their tools & equipment. ISTR that the Paris attackers had come in with the tide across the Aegean, and they've also intercepted weapons and explosives coming in via the same route including a camper van full of AKs in secret panels IIRC.

 

BillB

[Marek Tucan]

I believe Colonel Pohlmann laughed at Assaye when Wellesley attacked his line, so the "comedian" bit would fit... with killer punchlines

 

Anyway the problem is I guess similar to 1970s with various revolutionnaired going for fun and games and training (well, coincidentally also in Middle East). There was probably less of them as the fellow travelers wanted to live, generally, but the principle is the same.

[Roman Alymov]

What will be the next steps of Belgium Government? Now proven that top security alert and army on the streets not helping to prevent terrorists killing people....

 

P.S. One of Kubinka team members, who traveled a lot via Brussels for family reasons, commented "Problem was long since there". Years ago he was advised by train conductor (non-white by the way) to avoid central train station as it is too likely to be robbed there...

Edited March 22, 2016 by Roman Alymov

[T-44]

P.S. One of Kubinka team members, who traveled a lot via Brussels for family reasons, commented "Problem was long since there". Years ago he was advised by train conductor (non-white by the way) to avoid central train station as it is too likely to be robbed there...

That's an exagerating things quite a bit. I'v commuted five years between Ghent and Brussels Central, and while the statiin sure has its shady figures and can be a bit desolate at night, and thefts do occur (but where don't they), I've never had a negative experience personnaly nor did any of my coworkers. It's not a no-go zone by any means. Not that Brussels doesn't have neighbourhoods approaching such areas, unfortunately.

 

As for reactions by the government, don't hold your breath, I'm afraid... It's not like the entire muslim or migrant community endorses IS, but they don't take responsability or measures of their own either. Symptomatic: a former colleague, Turkish background, highly educated (PhD), belgian girlfriend, still thought it was relevant to post on his FB page the possibility, or even likelyhood, that Russia was behind the attacks and the muslims the victim of a 'blame game'... WTF

But fat chance such attitudes are going to be seriously questioned in the political forum.

Edited March 22, 2016 by T-44

[Roman Alymov]

 

P.S. One of Kubinka team members, who traveled a lot via Brussels for family reasons, commented "Problem was long since there". Years ago he was advised by train conductor (non-white by the way) to avoid central train station as it is too likely to be robbed there...

That's an exagerating things quite a bit. I'v commuted five years between Ghent and Brussels Central, and while the statiin sure has its shady figures and can be a bit desolate at night, and thefts do occur (but where don't they), I've never had a negative experience personnaly nor did any of my coworkers. It's not a no-go zone by any means.

Well, may be conductor considered it his duty to keep foreigner out of trouble...

P.S. Double-checked his post -he actually was ADVISED to use central station for train change, as it is smaller and underground - and to avoid some other place.... Mia culpa.

 

 

 

As for reactions by the government, don't hold your breath, I'm afraid... It's not like the entire muslim or migrant community endorses IS, but they don't take responsability or measures of their own either. Symptomatic: a former colleague, Turkish background, highly educated (PhD), belgian girlfriend, still thought it was relevant to post on his FB page the possibility, or even likelyhood, that Russia was behind the attacks and the muslims the victim of a 'blame game'... WTF

 

Nothing to do with race or religion - http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38893&p=1233315

Edited March 22, 2016 by Roman Alymov

[T-44]

 

 

 

As for reactions by the government, don't hold your breath, I'm afraid... It's not like the entire muslim or migrant community endorses IS, but they don't take responsability or measures of their own either. Symptomatic: a former colleague, Turkish background, highly educated (PhD), belgian girlfriend, still thought it was relevant to post on his FB page the possibility, or even likelyhood, that Russia was behind the attacks and the muslims the victim of a 'blame game'... WTF

But fat chance such attitudes are going to be seriously questioned in the political forum.

 

Nothing to do with race or religion - http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38893&p=1233315

Ha, no surprise actually. And you're right, it doesn't have to do with religion or race per se (though that doesn't mean national or religious sentiments do not play a role in such behaviour)

[bojan]

"natural violent inclinations" So what is the theory there exactly?

 

As for the conditions...as I said a perfect storm, but many similar to France. Easy enough to look for your self if you do a search for 'Belgium terrorism problem'. Several articles will come up. Of note:

 

Concentrated areas of Muslims with a youth unemployment rate of 40%" Isolated from "growing up in Europe". Youth feel no belonging to Belgium, and look for something to direct their anger and hopelessness towards. Easy picking for recruiters...

...

Paul, that might be all fine and well in theory, but going by that criteria there should have been scores of Serb/Croatian/Macedonian diaspora blowing themself up in the '90s, yet there were none.

Islam is a key factor. W/o it, they might have turned to petty (or not so petty) crime, but there would be far less terrorists.

[Roman Alymov]

Paul, that might be all fine and well in theory, but going by that criteria there should have been scores of Serb/Croatian/Macedonian diaspora blowing themself up in the '90s, yet there were none.

Islam is a key factor. W/o it, they might have turned to petty (or not so petty) crime, but there would be far less terrorists.

 

As far as i remember two British youngsters who killed and beheaded soldier in London where from Christian African roots - but self-converted into radical Islam. I think key is some people in society feel so desperate for some reason they are easy victims (or happy volunteers) to any radical movement -and no roots to stand on. Serb/Croatian/Macedonian diaspora, despite of all problems, still got state and history to be proud of. Many migrants from distant places got almost no identity, especially second generation - they are not accepted both in "new" and "old" country....

[DB]

 

 

P.S. One of Kubinka team members, who traveled a lot via Brussels for family reasons, commented "Problem was long since there". Years ago he was advised by train conductor (non-white by the way) to avoid central train station as it is too likely to be robbed there...

That's an exagerating things quite a bit. I'v commuted five years between Ghent and Brussels Central, and while the statiin sure has its shady figures and can be a bit desolate at night, and thefts do occur (but where don't they), I've never had a negative experience personnaly nor did any of my coworkers. It's not a no-go zone by any means.

Well, may be conductor considered it his duty to keep foreigner out of trouble...

P.S. Double-checked his post -he actually was ADVISED to use central station for train change, as it is smaller and underground - and to avoid some other place.... Mia culpa.

My experience of Brussels is somewhat dated, but the Central Station was the best of the three major stations, with the southern station ok but in a more run-down area. The one to avoid by appearance was the station to the north, but even then I wouldn't say that when I was there there was a no-go area as such. Nothing that I would recognise, anyway. maybe Anderlecht, based on the football supporters' reputation

 

I wonder if we're seeing what is effectively a (coincidental) exploitation of the extended period where Belgium was without a "proper" government, plus all the openness that comes with being one of the two political centres for the EU.

 

Whatever was, now isn't. There will be a period where this is taken rather more seriously, but it will fade. We (as in "western civilisation") still don't consider this to be an existential threat, and it's also debatable (in a forum where rational debate is still possible - i.e. not this one) whether the Islamic death cult threat of the week is ever going to be credibly such.

Edited March 22, 2016 by DB

[BP]

What will be the next steps of Belgium Government? Now proven that top security alert and army on the streets not helping to prevent terrorists killing people....

 

There will be a vigorous debate on what kind of lube to buy, and whether it is halal or not. Then they'll go find some native Nelgian, right wing white guys to crack down on.

[Gregory]

As for reactions by the government, don't hold your breath, I'm afraid... It's not like the entire muslim or migrant community endorses IS, but they don't take responsability or measures of their own either. Symptomatic: a former colleague, Turkish background, highly educated (PhD), belgian girlfriend, still thought it was relevant to post on his FB page the possibility, or even likelyhood, that Russia was behind the attacks and the muslims the victim of a 'blame game'... WTF

But fat chance such attitudes are going to be seriously questioned in the political forum.

 

 

Yeah, when top Russian politicians are saying "The more Europeans terrorists kill, the better", whatever was your colleague thinking?

[Mr King]

 

"natural violent inclinations" So what is the theory there exactly?

 

As for the conditions...as I said a perfect storm, but many similar to France. Easy enough to look for your self if you do a search for 'Belgium terrorism problem'. Several articles will come up. Of note:

 

Concentrated areas of Muslims with a youth unemployment rate of 40%" Isolated from "growing up in Europe". Youth feel no belonging to Belgium, and look for something to direct their anger and hopelessness towards. Easy picking for recruiters...

...

Paul, that might be all fine and well in theory, but going by that criteria there should have been scores of Serb/Croatian/Macedonian diaspora blowing themself up in the '90s, yet there were none.

Islam is a key factor. W/o it, they might have turned to petty (or not so petty) crime, but there would be far less terrorists.

 

 

 

Hogwash. Religion, like culture, is this intangible concept that is neither good or bad, it just "is". Everything can be broken down via class warfare terms with heavy doses of the faux science known as sociology.

[Fritz]

 

A frustrated U.S. intelligence official bemoaned the state of the counterterrorism apparatus in Belgium and across Europe.

 

“Even with the EU in general, there’s an infiltration of jihadists that’s been happening for two decades. And now they’re just starting to work on this. When we have to contact these people or send our guys over to talk to them, we’re essentially talking with people who are—I’m just going to put it bluntly—children. These are not pro-active, they’re don’t know what’s going on. They’re in such denial. It’s such a frightening thing to admit their country is being taken over.”

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/22/u-s-officials-bash-shitty-belgian-security-forces.html

 

Basically, it's hopeless.

 

And next week I'm flying through Paris and then back through Amsterdam.... I'm sure it's going to be tons of fun.

[Rick]

 

 

"natural violent inclinations" So what is the theory there exactly?

 

As for the conditions...as I said a perfect storm, but many similar to France. Easy enough to look for your self if you do a search for 'Belgium terrorism problem'. Several articles will come up. Of note:

 

Concentrated areas of Muslims with a youth unemployment rate of 40%" Isolated from "growing up in Europe". Youth feel no belonging to Belgium, and look for something to direct their anger and hopelessness towards. Easy picking for recruiters...

...

Paul, that might be all fine and well in theory, but going by that criteria there should have been scores of Serb/Croatian/Macedonian diaspora blowing themself up in the '90s, yet there were none.

Islam is a key factor. W/o it, they might have turned to petty (or not so petty) crime, but there would be far less terrorists.

 

 

 

Hogwash. Religion, like culture, is this intangible concept that is neither good or bad, it just "is". Everything can be broken down via class warfare terms with heavy doses of the faux science known as sociology.

 

 

Respectfully disagree with the "Religion ,like culture..." They are both entwined, not separate. People have a choice and Christianity should lead culture. Today it is the other way around and look what we are getting. I am always amazed on what Jesus has done for Jacab DeShazer and Mitsuo Fuchida. Also, for Charles "Chuck" Olson.

[Mr King]

I was being sarcastic. Religion makes culture and culture makes religion, and religion is only the sum total of its believers representing it and driving it. If people cant admit there are significant issues with the Islam of today, we are doomed to repeat an endless cycle. There will never be reform unless there is pressure to change.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mr King

[Simon Tan]

But the Russians are right, if a little blunt. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms. Get to the infection....Team Sunni. Kill it. Eill be painful and quite unpleasant but afterwards...you will be cured of it.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Birganza, there are lots of poorly educated yokels with no opportunity and who are deeply superstitious all over the US. We are struck with a large quantity of Hatfields and McCoys who routinely blow up scores if not hundreds of people.

 

I'm still trying to figure out what sort of horrid conditions Europeans are subjecting muslims to that makes so many of them hell bent on killing Europeans and others.

 

Well in part it seems Ghettoisation, though one has to say this seems quite often to be a self imposed choice. Rather than live in a wider society of the nation they join, they prefer to form little Pakistans or Kabuls. Which works brilliantly, right upt to the point when you realise they identify more with the culture of the homeland they left rather than the state they joined.

 

Your nation has had a similar problem with Italian Americans and the Cosa Nostra when you think about it. Over time the Italian diaspora has spread and in part im sure that has been partly due to the decline of the mafia. But it took what, 80 years? And even with the FBI jumping on its neck its still got plenty of life in it.

 

A slower rate of immigraton and it would be less of an issue here. Just as Britain has always done with diverse cultures they would be added to the moulting pot and society would continue as before. The problem we have had (and Europe has had) is that with a higher rate, the communities that would eventually split up are continuing to exist, and prove a ground base for more hostile elements coming in from abroad.

 

 

You can type faster than me.

 

At over 30,000 posts, and many of them being walls of texts, he's had lots of practice

 

And every last one of them worth listening to.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

The Charlie Hebdo attack was perpetuated by people who were in the EU long before the Syrian crisis. So have all the other previous attacks. Im sure that subsequently we will see many more refugees (or people pretending to be refugees) taking part in these attacks just as we did with the Paris attack, but its not as if we didnt have a long standing problem already. You cant dump it all in Angela Merkels lap. We have a problem with terrorists who were born here but seem more easily to identify with a bunch of head chopping fuckwits in the sandy place. Not much you can do to legislate for stupidity unfortunately.

 

A British comedian once said that you can be born in a stable and it doesnt make you a horse. Which is probably vilely politically incorrect, but at least as far as Europe's terrorist problem pretty much spot on.

Ref the bolded bit, I thought the comedian was the Duke of Wellington. Ref the first bit, no you can't dump it all on Merkel but her incomprehensible behaviour has made the problem immensely worse by providing a blanket to camouflage the ingress of baddies and their tools & equipment. ISTR that the Paris attackers had come in with the tide across the Aegean, and they've also intercepted weapons and explosives coming in via the same route including a camper van full of AKs in secret panels IIRC.

 

BillB

 

Oh fair enough then. I guess Bernard Manning was rather better read than I gave him credit for.

 

Its not helped. I mean clearly the actions of Germany (well meaning though they undoubtedly were) contributed to the second paris attack, I think thats pretty well established by now. But of course that, and the Hebdo attack, had as its nucleus people born or very long established in the west. So even if the EU had effectively managed the migrant crisis, we would still arguably have a problem here, either from people born here or students residing here. I seem to recall most of the guns used in the Paris attack were bought in the Czech Republic?

 

I mean muslim terrorist attacks have been going on in Europe for well over a decade now. Its easy to point the finger at individuals, when quite clearly multiple Governments have not had a handle on this problem. The scale of the problem has changed, but the real inability to manage the problem is European Governments managing it in detail, rather than in cooperation. Whatever we are doing, its clearly not working properly.

[Stuart Galbraith]

But the Russians are right, if a little blunt. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms. Get to the infection....Team Sunni. Kill it. Eill be painful and quite unpleasant but afterwards...you will be cured of it.

 

Kill the source of the problem, and you are still going to have the problem in Europe. Thats the central problem with the Blair doctrine of tackling terrorism and the threat of WMD in the middle east, it does nothing to stop home grown efforts right on our own doorstep, and reduces the resources we need to tackle it.

 

Ultimately the only way Putins doctrine is going to work is to step up and place a multinational army in the middle east for the next couple of generations to reeducate, rebuild, deindoctrinise the locals into behaving like normal human beings again, or at least the militant ones. And quite clearly Russia is not going to step up and provide forces for that when one sees the kind of alacrity in which he removed forces before he got bogged down. And in that his response of the Putin Doctrine is not much different from the Bush doctrine, meddle inconclusively and withdraw before achieving the final effort. The firepower levels used might be new, but the unwillingness to stay to provide the kind of security in which change might occur isnt.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[Ssnake]

But the Russians are right, if a little blunt. You cannot cure a disease by treating the symptoms. Get to the infection....Team Sunni. Kill it.

 

Except, the Russians aren't doing that. Dropping a few bombs to help Assad, now pulling out already.

So maybe they are either talking the talk but are unable to walk the walk, or your succinct analysis doesn't actually coincide with theirs.