120 Dead In Paris

[X-Files]

I can't decide which is worse - the 7th century drooling troglodytes that set off the bombs, or the pieces of human excrement that ignore the wounded?

 

 

 

 

 

I figured you two would take the bait to defend your own shortcomings as men. Glad you can admit to being so self-centered and callous.

 

Trollbait.

 

If you read what I wrote, I simply said I've never been tested, so don't know how I'd react. That's honesty. I'm sure you faced your own personal elephant with plenty of glory.

 

 

Not trollbait, simply responses as predictable as Occam's Razor - I read every word you wrote and it's exactly what I expected and to answer your knee-jerk defensive jibe, I've been in fucked up situations and did what I had to do and there was no glory in it. You just don't like getting called on the carpet for your pre-set alibis.

 

 

 

 

Maybe I just dont feel comfortable classing myself as a hero, particularly as ive never been in a life threatening situation. But then that is the British way, understate and try to overachieve.

 

 

There is nothing 'heroic' in rending aid to the stricken, it's basic humanity.

 

I'm done with this bullshit, you two enjoy your choices in life.

Edited March 22, 2016 by X-Files

[rmgill]

Maybe I just dont feel comfortable classing myself as a hero, particularly as ive never been in a life threatening situation. But then that is the British way, understate and try to overachieve.

Then the added phrase I would suggest that while you are untested it is your hope that you will comport yourself with honor if and when such a trial occurs.

 

 

 

Our modern, western societies have become entirely inured to carnage and brutality. Too many people are like sloe-eyed cows when brutality occurs. Seeing that behavior and noting that it's far from ideal is not unfair. Encouraging the correct behavior whole ridiculing the apparent incorrect behavior is NOT a bad thing.

 

Even trained individuals may freeze up when the moment of first action happens or when they've had their fill of carnage many events later. That's to be dealt with. But don't stop encouraging the correct behavior and stop excusing the wilting flowers who won't deal.

Edited March 22, 2016 by rmgill

[DB]

Not playing.

[JasonJ]

 

Easy to scapegoat her for this, but I have no doubt that the bad actors would have been able to embed themselves in Europe without the current migrant issues and the European response to them.

 

And E5M's protestations notwithstanding, you can't machine gun the boats they're using to get here, our societal values such as they are will not allow it. If that means we're all doomed as a society, then the vandals are welcome to the hell they'll inherit. I happen to believe that our way is better than theirs and will win out eventually.

JasonJ says what I was going to say as well.

 

I'll just add that If Europe has the funds to house and feed and clothe them with its welfare states, then Europe has the funds and resources to feed and clothe them temporarily, fix any injuries and carry them back to their nations of origin. Or at least house them in refugee camps for a time if their nation of origin is too unsafe until such time as they can be returned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

France has had internal issues with Islam for decades. Implementing something like that seems to make sense.

 

 

The Charlie Hebdo attack was perpetuated by people who were in the EU long before the Syrian crisis. So have all the other previous attacks. Im sure that subsequently we will see many more refugees (or people pretending to be refugees) taking part in these attacks just as we did with the Paris attack, but its not as if we didnt have a long standing problem already. You cant dump it all in Angela Merkels lap. We have a problem with terrorists who were born here but seem more easily to identify with a bunch of head chopping fuckwits in the sandy place. Not much you can do to legislate for stupidity unfortunately.

 

A British comedian once said that you can be born in a stable and it doesnt make you a horse. Which is probably vilely politically incorrect, but at least as far as Europe's terrorist problem pretty much spot on.

 

Reading about those two brothers that attacked Charlie Hebdo is some interesting reading.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9rif_and_Sa.C3.AFd_Kouachi

[Gregory]

The Charlie Hebdo attack was perpetuated by people who were in the EU long before the Syrian crisis. So have all the other previous attacks. Im sure that subsequently we will see many more refugees (or people pretending to be refugees) taking part in these attacks just as we did with the Paris attack, but its not as if we didnt have a long standing problem already. You cant dump it all in Angela Merkels lap. We have a problem with terrorists who were born here but seem more easily to identify with a bunch of head chopping fuckwits in the sandy place. Not much you can do to legislate for stupidity unfortunately.

 

A British comedian once said that you can be born in a stable and it doesnt make you a horse. Which is probably vilely politically incorrect, but at least as far as Europe's terrorist problem pretty much spot on.

 

I agree that current problems in EU wrt Muslims did not start a year ago. At the same time, what Merkel & Co. are doing is making problem demonstrably worse. We KNOW that terrorists are entering Europe in the refugee stream. We don't know, but it's extremely likely that some portion of current arrivals will eventually become radicalized. If you want to be humanitarian about it, put them on a boat to another Arab country. Or hell - African country. Make them take X number of refugees back as condition of receiving foreign aid. Don't want them? OK, this money will transferred to country that will take them. Easy peasy.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Gregory

[Mr King]

It is pretty fucking sad that these attacks are running so close together now they don't even end up in their own thread. I guess we should just get used to it, because heaven forbid the course is changed at this point.

[rmgill]

Stuart, you want to help when such a situation comes up?

 

Take some basic first aid. Learn the ABCs or what ever your Emergency responders call it. Carry some kit.

 

I added an Israeli Bandage, a CAT Tourniquet, an Ace bandage (can be used for both splinting and pressure) and some combat gauze to my every day kit more than a year ago. I may not be able to save someone's life with that stuff, but I can staunch blood loss while the first responders are arriving and hopefully extend their chances with more precise and trained skills than I can exert.

 

Even if you aren't too keen on using the kit, someone with more knowledge can use them and you can get someone else in the fight to help keeping someone from bleeding out.

[Juan Sosa]

The perfect illustration - on the right, "as long as my loved ones are ok, I'm ok with this situation" and on the left, the bleeding casualty ignored.

 

 

We do know what the couple on the right did and it doesn't fit the impression given by this moment in the picture. They are seen in a picture in the post right before yours to be assisting the man.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/PaulineArmandet/status/712192021516165122/photo/1

 

Similarly, while the man with the briefcase in the airport picture looks to be just casually walking bye, it would be irresponsible to condemn him and society in general for that impression. Pictures can be very misleading. We can't see off the frame, can't see what happened in the moments before and after and a moment captured out of context can be completely misinterpreted.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Stuart, you want to help when such a situation comes up?

 

Take some basic first aid. Learn the ABCs or what ever your Emergency responders call it. Carry some kit.

 

I added an Israeli Bandage, a CAT Tourniquet, an Ace bandage (can be used for both splinting and pressure) and some combat gauze to my every day kit more than a year ago. I may not be able to save someone's life with that stuff, but I can staunch blood loss while the first responders are arriving and hopefully extend their chances with more precise and trained skills than I can exert.

 

Even if you aren't too keen on using the kit, someone with more knowledge can use them and you can get someone else in the fight to help keeping someone from bleeding out.

Im thinking of doing just that. Though I do have a Copy of a Civil Defence Corp first aid manual of which there is some useful stuff on stopping bleed outs through neck wounds. id be the first to admit its not the same as hands on training.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[rmgill]

Go to your local fire brigade. Tell them your issue. They might be able to give you some place to go or even train you themselves if you're ernest. At least in my part of the US, many of the folks who do fire/ems services are also trainers. We have a local Community Emergency Response Team system along side many other volunteer services that chip in when shit happens.

 

At a minimum I'd say look for training material on the basics, Airway Breathing Circulation. The basics of CPR, keeping a patient immobile if there's any C/Spine injury and elevating legs, keep the head slightly canted back, keeping them warm and stopping blood flow are scouting level/scuba diver level tasks. Reading and such, you won't be certified, but basic first aid should be covered under good Samaritan laws, at least in any properly civilized nation. Even basic aid for someone can help keep them out of shock which my kill them.

 

And god forbid the person is beyond help or help isn't coming, even sitting there with an mortally wounded person and holding their hand while they expire is a kindness that any person can do for someone.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just had a thought from reading all that Ryan, there is good case here for making a 'prepper' thread for such contingencies. Casevac, first aid and that kind of thing. I dont mind starting it off, but I dont want it to get deleted by the FSB again like my Paris thread.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Stuart Galbraith

[Briganza]

The perfect illustration - on the right, "as long as my loved ones are ok, I'm ok with this situation" and on the left, the bleeding casualty ignored.

 

Just seen that group on another picture but from the right. It has both of them bending over him giving aid. It is unclear if it is before or after this picture but as it also shows a woman sitting on that green bin it may be after.

[rmgill]

There are enough combat vets here who've had combat life saver training and probably seen a few wounded comrades. They may have some fine points of what does and does not work. I've already picked the brains of numerous Paramedic Friends and two Combat Paramedic, one who was good enough to be paid a lot of money to keep doing it in Iraq (He owns a Humber Scout Car).

 

Tourniquets, applied when urgently needed and the various quick clot like hemostatic agents (2nd and 3rd gen, NOT the 1st gen powders) have apparently saved a great many lives. Other more modern and durable combat gauzes plus Israeli bandages are quite good and have durable packaging to keep them in good order. The military stuff is great because it's packaged in durable foil packs that keep them longer than what you buy in a pharmacy/chemist shop.

 

(Edit on the tourniquets and gauze, have a sharpie with the tourniquet or in the bag, write the time of the tourniquet application on the extremity or on their forehead so the ER folks know how longs it's been on. An additional pro tip is safety pinning any gauze you've stuffed into a wound, if you go that far, into their clothes so that they can be accounted for and removed when they're operating to repair the damaged circulatory system.)

 

Add aspirin to your kit. Just regular Aspirin. Got someone who's got heart/chest/left arm pain and that can help save their life while you get the first responders there or you get them to a hospital for the necessary intervention.

 

http://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/aspirin-for-heart-attack-chew-or-swallow

Edited March 22, 2016 by rmgill

[Damian]

Aye, the last paragraph, it's so true.

[Briganza]

sorry Juan hadn't got to you before I posted.

 

There is video on the BBC that shows him latter continuing to give first aid. His bald head and red trousers make him easy to identify.

 

A number of companies made a lot of money after the 90s London bombing fitting plastic film to windows and installing blast curtains to government building. Reintroducing the system would reduce a lot of injuries.

[Panzermann]

In Germany all the big medical help organisations like Red Cross, Johanniter-Unfall-Hilfe (run by the Order of Saint John (Bailiwick of Brandenburg)), the Malteserhilfdienst (run by the Order of Malta) and several others offer various courses for emergency aid. Some with official certificates. For example for a driverr's license a course is required. Many bigger firms have a legally required programme for first aid training, too.

 

I guess there are similar offerings all over Europe.

 

 

I should really refreshen my knowledge, the last course I attended was when I was active service. That is one and a half decades now. Ooops. That long ago?

 

For bandages and stuff there is the first aid kit in the car. For personal carry I only have some leftover bandages from the Bundeswehr. Manufactured in the stone age or so.

 

I should really get my arse moving to a course and stock up on supplies.

[Skywalkre]

Tourniquets, applied when urgently needed and the various quick clot like hemostatic agents (2nd and 3rd gen, NOT the 1st gen powders) have apparently saved a great many lives. Other more modern and durable combat gauzes plus Israeli bandages are quite good and have durable packaging to keep them in good order. The military stuff is great because it's packaged in durable foil packs that keep them longer than what you buy in a pharmacy/chemist shop.

Just make sure you know the laws of your area. Any decent first aid course in the US should have this as part of the training. Here in AZ, for example, you're protected by Good Samaritan laws if you help out but only if you practice within the limits of your training/certification (which, if just a first aid course, isn't much). If I were to go to a scene and reach back to some of my medic training that's outside that scope (I'm no longer certified in anything short of first aid) I could potentially be in trouble legally.

[T-44]

Just got home from work (not in Brussels), quite a hectic day contacting friends and former colleagues - all accounted for luckily, though some close calls, particulary my roommate who was on her way to the airport (but her train got stopped between Brussels and Zaventem), and another friend who was in the metro-car before the one that blew up...

 

Lots still trying to get home, although public transport seems to be starting up again.

 

We'll see how things turn out (casualties still not certain, 30+ at least but many heavy injured, and two suspects apparently still on the loose - the metro attack in particular doesn't seem to have been a suicide attack only)

[Stuart Galbraith]

Islamic state just claimed responsibility via its own news agency. No real surprise, but its all good to know.

 

Also, a picture of 3 suspects at the airport has been released. Not clearly if all three died there, or one escaped to do the metro attack.

[Gregory]

 

“All of this is to say that the implantation of the network is more firm than we thought,” Mr. Juillet added. “The police were efficient — and yet this happened. So, there is a very strong implantation in Belgium,” he said, referring to the terrorist network.

“The Belgian police are excellent,” said another former D.G.S.E. official, Alain Chouet. “The problems are political. They let develop violent Islamist currents. They were not disrupted because they didn’t want problems with the Muslim community.”

[swerve]

 

I cant help but think shock is playing a role in that kind of situation. its not not particularity common to come across shredded people on European streets. Well not recently anyway.

 

If it happened to me Im not sure I would know what the hell to do either. Most people seem to have reacted by taking photos and presumably upping to facebook.

 

 

People who are not trained are not prepared. They do things they may not be proud of later. On the other hand, we don't know what they did after the moment of comfort and relief, so maybe we shouldn't judge too quickly.

 

I'm sure I've said before that I have no idea how I'd react in adversity or combat, never having really faced it, nor trained to react appropriately. I might do the right things, I might freeze, I might just run away. One thing we do see, though, is that people who have been in the armed forces tend to react far more quickly and far more effectively than others.

 

I figured you two would take the bait to defend your own shortcomings as men. Glad you can admit to being so self-centered and callous.

 

Your reaction to this is despicable. You've used the deaths of a few dozen people & the wounding of many more as an excuse for a macho rant & personal attacks on decent people.

[sunday]

The Charlie Hebdo attack was perpetuated by people who were in the EU long before the Syrian crisis. So have all the other previous attacks. Im sure that subsequently we will see many more refugees (or people pretending to be refugees) taking part in these attacks just as we did with the Paris attack, but its not as if we didnt have a long standing problem already. You cant dump it all in Angela Merkels lap. We have a problem with terrorists who were born here but seem more easily to identify with a bunch of head chopping fuckwits in the sandy place. Not much you can do to legislate for stupidity unfortunately.

 

A British comedian once said that you can be born in a stable and it doesnt make you a horse. Which is probably vilely politically incorrect, but at least as far as Europe's terrorist problem pretty much spot on.

 

First time I've seen the 1st. Duke of Wellington referred to as a comedian. Curiouser and curiouser...

[Simon Tan]

Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. These deaths are without meaning. Much like Paris. It will continue to happen because there is no consequence to this. In Molenbeek, they celebrate behind closed doors.

[T-44]

Nothing will happen. Nothing will change. These deaths are without meaning. Much like Paris. It will continue to happen because there is no consequence to this. In Molenbeek, they celebrate behind closed doors.

I have my doubts wrt the closed doors actually... At the arrest of Abeslam last friday the police was confronted with 100+ locals throwing stones and glass. Scumbags.

 

But you're right I'm afraid, as national television deliberately chose not to air images of those riots. PC, y'know...

[Josh]

 

 

Your reaction to this is despicable. You've used the deaths of a few dozen people & the wounding of many more as an excuse for a macho rant & personal attacks on decent people.

+1