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$5 Million To Put A 30Mm Gun Turret On Stryker


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The gap that I see is the Recce units for Stryker Brigade Combat teams is that they cannot perform counter Recce.

 

 

 

That is where I primarily see the 30mm Strykers going as the only real anti-armor capability they have there is the Javalin.

 

51 in a BCT.

Edited by Paul G.
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The gap that I see is the Recce units for Stryker Brigade Combat teams is that they cannot perform counter Recce.

 

 

That is where I primarily see the 30mm Strykers going as the only real anti-armor capability they have there is the Javalin.

 

51 in a BCT.

Isn't there a TOW-launching variant of the Stryker, too?

 

Edit: yep, M1134 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1134_Anti-Tank_Guided_Missile_Vehicle

Edited by 2805662
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Hope so, I couldn't see a lot wrong with the old layout. BCT, I can see the logic of. Having combined arms battalions to me makes little sense unless you are moving to get rid of them and move to a common hulled force. Which seems decades away, if ever.

Makes perfect sense. The MBT and IFV are to be employed together working in concert. Easier to train imho when the vehicles are permantly mixed in units to build better unit cohesion and have more training together. Sweden and a few others toy around with this as well. Heck, the old armored cav regiments were mixed. And soviet regiments of course also had integrated units of infantry and armour.

Keeping the units neatly separated seems more like an administrative vestige.

 

Stryker BCT looks fairly sensible, even if I think they have the wrong vehicle for the role.

Has to fit C-130. Has to fit C-130. Has to fit C-130. ...

Was the mantra.

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The combat power of the Stryker units largely resides in their infantry. And as we see in the ME, solid troops with ATGM's can defend very well. S/F.....Ken M

If your recce units bump into red force recce units, what then? Break contact with smoke if possible and get infantry up to a point to try and ambush the enemy recce? You have to stop and deploy infantry to have any sort of combat power with that single aspect of firepower invested just in the dismounts. I can get that for the line units but for the recon elements seems like they're terribly light.

Edited by rmgill
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If your recce units bump into red force recce units, what then? Break contact with smoke if possible and get infantry up to a point to try and ambush the enemy recce? You have to stop and deploy infantry to have any sort of combat power with that single aspect of firepower invested just in the dismounts. I can get that for the line units but for the recon elements seems like they're terribly light.

Advance with overwatch provided by the ATGM (TOW) Strykers. 2km bound leapfrog or caterpillar. Why 2km? Advance half the effective range of the element providing overwatch.

Edited by 2805662
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Recce works best by stealth, contact is usually reported and broken, if possible. The old [ROAD period] ACR was designed primarily for the recce in force mission, a regiment operating in advance of a corps. Recce at Bn-Division level is something else.

 

In this case as in other forms of combat, it is not a weapon for weapon exchange. That's for 1st person shooter gaming, not real military operations. Combine arms works day and night now and comms is no longer a matter of luck.

 

I know we are hung on getting AFV tech data down pat, but it must not be mistaken for doctrine nor tactical proficiency. What KenM posted above is a case of clear professional thinking.

 

When the army first deployed a Stryker Bde to Iraq, c.2004-5, the Army PR boasted that it was being sent because the 'Stryker is ideally suited for urban combat.' Some things remain inexplicable.

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The gap that I see is the Recce units for Stryker Brigade Combat teams is that they cannot perform counter Recce.

 

 

That is where I primarily see the 30mm Strykers going as the only real anti-armor capability they have there is the Javalin.

 

51 in a BCT.

Isn't there a TOW-launching variant of the Stryker, too?

 

Edit: yep, M1134 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1134_Anti-Tank_Guided_Missile_Vehicle

 

 

I should have been more clear. There are 9x ICV-ATGM in the Stryker BCT, all in the AT Co, none in the Recon Squadron. The only anti-armor weapon they have for counter-recon is the Javalin.

Edited by Paul G.
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I always thought the mortar arrangement in Stryker battalions was a bit odd. A battalion has what, 4 120mm mortars, but they carry at least 1 81mm mortar in the vehicle as well so dismounts have something portable. If thats such a concern, why not just have 81mms and make more use of the Brigades 155s? Struck me as an unnecessary complication in supply and training.

 

The recce unit in Stryker BCTs didnt look too bad though. But it can hardly be used in the traditional sense of fighting for recce, because the only real firepower it has is when it uses its dismounts.

 

According to the MTOE im looking at The BN has 4x ICV-Mortars, and each CO (x3) has 2x ICV-Mortars. For a total of 36x in the SBCT (Recon SDN has mortears too).

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Like I said the US Army loves to tinker. I was refering to the SCBT proposed last year at the Manuver Conference.

 

Each 2015 Stryker IN BN MTOE has 10x Mortar carriers, 4x 81mm and 6x 60mm mortars.

 

The Recon SDN has an additional 6x mortar carriers,

Edited by Paul G.
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If your recce units bump into red force recce units, what then? Break contact with smoke if possible and get infantry up to a point to try and ambush the enemy recce? You have to stop and deploy infantry to have any sort of combat power with that single aspect of firepower invested just in the dismounts. I can get that for the line units but for the recon elements seems like they're terribly light.

Advance with overwatch provided by the ATGM (TOW) Strykers. 2km bound leapfrog or caterpillar. Why 2km? Advance half the effective range of the element providing overwatch.

 

Yep, but there's a delay between each phase that is in the realm of a minute to re-mount the vehicle and get the rear door closed and everything stowed, especially if you're going across country.

 

What's the ability to stow/unstow, prepare to fire, un-prepare to fire, restow on a Javelin going to do over repeated evolutions if you're advancing to some known but as yet unlocalized light armor force?

 

Compare that to move to turret down, glass the forward and side terrain with the mast mounted sensors and binoculars, then hull down and do the same with gunner's optics. One can also fire on the move.

 

At least with the dismounts you can park behind terrain and advance to that terrain and let the dismounts do the observing but that's got even more of a delay. Seems like the Stryker based recce will be very slow.

 

I'm not sure how they do flank protection. Pursuit seems impossible and rear guard operations seem like they'd be DIP for any units as you can't do Parthian shots with your Javelins can you?

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The combat power of the Stryker units largely resides in their infantry. And as we see in the ME, solid troops with ATGM's can defend very well. S/F.....Ken M

If your recce units bump into red force recce units, what then? Break contact with smoke if possible and get infantry up to a point to try and ambush the enemy recce? You have to stop and deploy infantry to have any sort of combat power with that single aspect of firepower invested just in the dismounts. I can get that for the line units but for the recon elements seems like they're terribly light.

 

 

INFANTRY. Get out of the damned vehicles and patrol. Stop thinking vehicles, it's a truck with armour, and think infantry. The ideal method to to not make contact, and just rain death from the sky. It's about being sneaky. By necessity, it's a slow business. This is why I rage so hard against the REMF's and their withholding IDF and CAS from the guys who are actually "eyes on." The ONLY valid reason for denying supporting arms should be the firing units are firing higher priority targets or otherwise indisposed, and that should be noted in the op orders before the first troops cross the FLOT. That's why there are all sorts of target matrices and commander's intent, so you know when you're fucked and time to break contact or when to pile in. Read the stuff about the Ukraine fighting, especially regarding use of IDF and covert FO's.

 

The Stryker mortars should be 120's, period, No good reason for dinky little things in vehicles. 60mm for dismounts are OK.

 

There's political implications with the deployment of units. You have to understand Russian paranoia and insecurity. Reinforcement of the Bde with more engineer and arty/CBR assets would be desirable from a defensive aspect.

 

I don't understand this desire(on the part of the US) to ramp up with the Russians. We should be working together to oppress the 3rd world and stop the fall of Western civilization to unrestricted invasion by the 3rd world primitive savages. It's understandable behavior by the traitorous leadership of the Europussy nations(the top uses the bottom vs the middle), but there's no benefit to the European people.

 

Ken E, the DOD was throwing things against the wall in that timeframe. I don't claim to understand US Army "infantry" units, but Stryker's seemed to have more dismounts than the norm, and so would be better for manpower intensive operations like we did at that time. Now I'm personally of the belief that we should behave in a modern Western Culture fashion where manpower is more costly than equipment, but like they say about science, "we advance one death at a time" and the old mentality still thinks we're Cold War strength with a draft or something. S/F.....Ken M

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E5M, I certainly get the utility of the infantry as part of the reconnaissance equation. Perhaps I'm thinking more WWII full scale war where you're trying to move forces quickly and advance to contact on an enemy who's trying to break that contact. I'ts hard to attack a mechanized and retreating enemy.

But, yeah, I guess the best way to think of Stryker Brigades is as Motorized infantry.

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If they're retreating, be smarter and use other assets to get eyes on the chokepoints. Ideally FASCAM them and have the USAF/USN/USMC air types dropping bridges and busting LOC's. Getting into the headlong rush to maintain contact will get you pulled into an envelopment against competent forces.

 

Organic R&S assets are local, within your own artillery coverage, there's no need for this "advance until your lead element blows up" silliness. That shit is past. S/F....Ken M

Edited by EchoFiveMike
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I think we may have a problem in understanding the rate of advance of units in a movement to contact, even if motorized, mechanized.

 

That speed varies greatly if contact is immanent, weather and terrain reduce visibility, availability of air support and rpv recce and the host of considerations that involve tactics and METT.

 

I think Mr. Gill is describing the conduct of a pursuit, not movement to contact, and he may not know the difference.

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The only issue I have with 120mm mortars is that they have to switch targets if dismounted infantry get within 350m (same as 155mm) or 175m if mounted, under armour (applying Australian CFSD here, sure they're not too dissimilar to US doctrine). That gives the enemy on the target much more time not being suppressed by IDF.

 

At least with 81mm it's 250m/125m respectively - much closer before mortar fire has to shift.

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