K9 Thunder - New S P G For The Indian Army

[M48A5K]

Never expected this...K9 is a better option than what Pakistan has, so I guess Indians would like it.

 

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/make-in-india-lt-outguns-global-rivals-to-bag-rs-5000-crore-indian-army-deal/articleshow/49160133.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

Make in India: L&T outguns global rivals to bag Rs 5,000-crore Indian Army deal

By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | 30 Sep, 2015, 06.24AM IST

NEW DELHI: India is finally set to get its own mobile howitzers that will reverse the longheld Pakistani battlefield edge on artillery guns.

The guns Pakistan have were supplied by the US ostensibly for the 'war on terror'. In a deal that would also fit the 'Make in India' mandate, domestic manufacturer Larsen and ToubroBSE 1.59 % has emerged as the finalist for a $750-million (about Rs 5,000 crore) contract to supply 100 self-propelled artillery guns to the Indian Army.

 

The 155 mm artillery guns are specially designed for operation in the desert areas bordering Pakistan and have been a longstanding requirement of the Army, officials said. India's concerns over Pakistan acquiring an edge in conventional warfare escalated in 2009 when the US supplied it 115 of the modern M 109A5 cannons as a "reward" for its assistance in the war on the Afghanistan border.

The Army had then accelerated its plans to procure a similar system, but the process dragged on for many years, with the defence ministry finally taking a call on the winner last week. Sources told ET that the K9 VAJRA-T howitzer, pitched by L&T in partnership with Samsung, has been shortlisted for the contract.

 

Once signed — the final process could take another six months — the Vajra could be the first new artillery gun to be produced in India since the 1980s when the Bofors was acquired. A parallel effort to procure M777 ultra-light howitzers from the US is under progress.

The Vajra will be produced at L&T's Pune facility and could be considered for exports in the future, along with an expected followon order for more guns for the Army.

The victory is especially sweet for L&T as it was competing in the global category, which was open to all arms vendors around the world.

The Vajra beat its Russian competitor on several technical grounds, including rate of fire, accuracy and mobility trials, officials said. L&T officials, however, refused to comment on the development.

India's artillery modernisation plans have been stuck since the 1980s after the Bofors kickbacks scandal. Not a single new modern system has been purchased since, seriously limiting the Army's battlefield edge.

Self-propelled guns are vital for their "shoot and scoot" ability as well as a high flexibility of deployment in the battlefield.

While Pakistan managed to procure the American systems in 2009, India's plans for similar systems have been stuck since 1999, with several failed rounds at identifying a gun.

 

[Colin]

Looks like an "evolved M109"

[crazyinsane105]

I read online that the final process for signing the contract can take six more months, meaning....this deal has the chance of going down the drain due to Indian bureaucracy.

[Gavin-Phillips]

"The Vajra beat its Russian competitor on several technical grounds, including rate of fire, accuracy and mobility trials, officials said. L&T officials, however, refused to comment on the development."

 

I certainly wish the Indian's success with this new venture, and hopefully some lessons have been learned from the Arjun MBT project.

 

However, what's this concerning a Russian competitor? Are any other details available, was the 2S19 under test or something else?

[Panzermann]

I put my money in the usual indian politico-bureaucratic FUBAR. I believe it when I see the first artillery regiment firing with K9.

 

 

Seeing the state of indian artillery at the moment, a modernized 2S3 Acacia in either 152 or 155 would be a vast improvement. Or 130? Indian Army seems fond of this caliber.

[crazyinsane105]

I put my money in the usual indian politico-bureaucratic FUBAR. I believe it when I see the first artillery regiment firing with K9.

 

 

Seeing the state of indian artillery at the moment, a modernized 2S3 Acacia in either 152 or 155 would be a vast improvement. Or 130? Indian Army seems fond of this caliber.

 

It's very strange that India has let Pakistan take the lead in this area. The Pakistanis have a rather large number of towed and SP 155's, the origin of them being Chinese, American, or Turkish:

 

M109A2 155mm - 250

M109A5 155mm - 115

Norinco SH1 155 mm - 90+

 

Towed:

 

M115 howitzer 203 mm - 28

MKEK Panter 155 mm - 57 ( Locally produced at HIT Heavy Mechanical Complex)

M198 howitzer 155 mm - 148

M114 155 mm - 144

M59 155 mm - 30

 

There are also a number of other towed artillery pieces still in use, anywhere from the 85 mm to 130 mm. Not sure if there are plans to induct more SPs...focus right now seems to be upgrading armor.

[urbanoid]

Also a few dozen 203 mm M110s.

[Colin]

I think Indians procurement model is based on the worst of their own and of the West's. plus they calculate that the real threat is terrorism, which they have also botched to a degree.

[crazyinsane105]

I think Indians procurement model is based on the worst of their own and of the West's. plus they calculate that the real threat is terrorism, which they have also botched to a degree.

 

From my understanding, what the Indian military wants and what the politicians end up approving are completely different. The procurement process is heavily riddled with unrealistic demands from foreign vendors, corruption (kickbacks, bribes), etc. It's less of the fault of the military and more of the politicians who are the ones that ink the contract.

 

I mean, wasn't India supposed to buy 126 Rafales? That contract was supposed to be finalized two years ago, but very recently it's been dropped to just 36. The Scorpene deal took forever to sign as well. So I'm not holding my breath on the K9's...

[nigelfe]

Interesting that 'accuracy' was one of the criteria, assuming the report is correct. Accuracy has very little to do with the gun (assuming the sights are properly aligned). Accuracy is primarily a function of up to date calibration and current meteor data together with good quality firing table data. If you don't like the latter do your own R&A firings and produce your own FTs. The real problem is that 52 calibre barrels spray the shells around, consistency is not that great which is why AS90 has not had the originally planned 52 cal barrels fitted.

[Simon Tan]

Dispersion of L52 is <L39 at all ranges? It is not surprising, stubby barrels are stiff and don't whip nearly as much.

[Corinthian]

So...

 

We have a reversal of NATO-WP artillery wherein Pakistan has lots more western-type SPGs over India which has fewer SPGs of the Soviet variety...?

 

Surprised that India doesn't have a more modern SPG. I guess India relies more on aircraft vs artillery?

[crazyinsane105]

So...

 

We have a reversal of NATO-WP artillery wherein Pakistan has lots more western-type SPGs over India which has fewer SPGs of the Soviet variety...?

 

Surprised that India doesn't have a more modern SPG. I guess India relies more on aircraft vs artillery?

 

Nope, the IAF and PAF are more geared towards air supremacy and targeting sites of strategic importance versus CAS. The Pakistanis have been doing CAS for at least a decade now due to the operations in NWFP and they just started to get the hang of it back in 2008. Also, the number of PGM's available to both countries is actually not very high and will only be reserved for targets of strategic value.

[swerve]

 

I think Indians procurement model is based on the worst of their own and of the West's. plus they calculate that the real threat is terrorism, which they have also botched to a degree.

 

From my understanding, what the Indian military wants and what the politicians end up approving are completely different. The procurement process is heavily riddled with unrealistic demands from foreign vendors, corruption (kickbacks, bribes), etc. It's less of the fault of the military and more of the politicians who are the ones that ink the contract.

 

I mean, wasn't India supposed to buy 126 Rafales? That contract was supposed to be finalized two years ago, but very recently it's been dropped to just 36. The Scorpene deal took forever to sign as well. So I'm not holding my breath on the K9's...

 

Don't forget the vested interests of the government-owned firms. They have a lot of political pull. HAL was planned to build most of those 126 Rafales, & that killed the deal. HAL demanded that Dassault be held liable for any manufacturing failures: delays, faults, etc. - including any caused by HAL. Because of HAL's pull, this wasn't rejected out of hand, but being pushed for by the Indian negotiators. Dassault, of course, wouldn't agree to it. Given HAL's record, it would have been crazy. HAL's been known to prevent access by quality control inspectors from firms whose products it's building, break open kits of parts meant for assembly to use as spares for in service aircraft* without keeping proper records of batch numbers, etc. - oh, loads of crap.

 

Some of the delays can produce farcical results, such as sending a request for proposals to France for the Mirage 2000 after (1) the rules for the bid had been changed to effectively exclude the Mirage 2000, (2) the production line had closed, & (3) France had offered to give India the production line & India hadn't even bothered to reply to the offer. But the bureaucrats processing the RFP still kept going . . . And then there was the recent approval for the IAF to buy three C-17s - requested long before, & not granted until after the number of C-17s available to buy had dropped to one.

 

*It did have an excuse for that (though not its record-keeping). There was a schedule for spares deliveries for the in-service aircraft, but it wasn't automatic. Each stage had to be signed off - & orders for deliveries & payments were sitting on bureaucrat's desks in Delhi, unprocessed. India was complaining about failure to deliver, & the foreign supplier was waiting for overdue payments for batches already delivered, & orders for subsequent deliveries.

Edited October 5, 2015 by swerve

[M48A5K]

"The Vajra beat its Russian competitor on several technical grounds, including rate of fire, accuracy and mobility trials, officials said. L&T officials, however, refused to comment on the development."

 

I certainly wish the Indian's success with this new venture, and hopefully some lessons have been learned from the Arjun MBT project.

 

However, what's this concerning a Russian competitor? Are any other details available, was the 2S19 under test or something else?

 

http://www.janes.com/article/55127/k9-selected-for-indian-army-sph-requirement

 

Jane's article says that it was a modified 2S19 mounted on a T-72 chassis.

[Gavin-Phillips]

 

"The Vajra beat its Russian competitor on several technical grounds, including rate of fire, accuracy and mobility trials, officials said. L&T officials, however, refused to comment on the development."

 

I certainly wish the Indian's success with this new venture, and hopefully some lessons have been learned from the Arjun MBT project.

 

However, what's this concerning a Russian competitor? Are any other details available, was the 2S19 under test or something else?

 

http://www.janes.com/article/55127/k9-selected-for-indian-army-sph-requirement

 

Jane's article says that it was a modified 2S19 mounted on a T-72 chassis.

 

 

Thank you.