Because The United Kingdom?

[Stuart Galbraith]

A short term focus thats lasted 40 years in some case. Thames water was still suffering from the finanacial decisions made in the 1980's immediately after it was privatized. And of course everyone turned a blind eye when foreign banks bought it over, leveraged huge loans on the back of it, then sold it off with the debt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66051555

I dont disagree that its true that its oversight that is the real problem. But in many cases those oversight failures are down to the ways these industries were privatized in the first place. That nobody came along subsequently and fixed that in the near 40 years since is undoubtedly a failure for everyone. Yet its still a failure ultimately of the original privatization to ensure thorough accountability, at least equal to that when they were under Government management.

There is an excellent book by Christian Wolmar called Broken Rails, that goes into some detail about how British Rail was broken up, and how it was still having unfortunate effects 15 years on. That was written 15 years ago now, and its still true, judging by how bad the infrastructure has been managed lately. That Banks were able to acquire 1930's tube stock for zero cost, then hire them out on the Isle of Wight at the price of brand new produced units is just one more example of how privatization has been used by the banks in this country to skim off the top, and not invest in success. Its getting increasingly hard to hide things like that now because the infrastructure they were bequeathed is falling part.

 

[Tim the Tank Nut]

the problems in the UK stem greatly from the same reasons and causes of the same problems in the USA (and other Western nations as well).

There's a relatively fixed amount of money.  Too much of the money is spent on stupid shit now and not enough of it is invested in the future.  By that I mean real investment in real, practical projects.  Politicians expect that they won't be around when the real accomplishments are made and therefore won't get credit so why bother?  Then they calculate that they won't be around for the blame so why not virtue signal now?

In my view the difficulty partially comes from the lack of historical accountability.  With the media being a decidedly non-neutral observer there's not enough pressure to do the right thing.  Add to that the years and years of "getting away with it" and it has become habit.  When you wonder what Rome looked like near the end, this is it.  The fecklessness of the ruling class (all sides) makes a surprising case for a monarchy.

Roman Alymov often points out the "Pro West" portion of Russia's leadership.  They aren't "Pro West" simply Pro-themselves just like here.

[futon]

Materialism and consumers share the blame. Entertainment companies compete with each other to make as attractive of a product as possible and consumers keep getting drawn towards it. Their money and time becomes de facto investment into ever more vigorous competition between entertainment companies. Time for watching all those movies, all those TV series, playing all those games, more and more country vs country world sports. Time which otherwise could have been spent elsewhere more classical future-oriented, be it more acedemic, industry, or the immediate surrounding community and family human relations. That's how the entertainment industry has become so matured and saturated where now dozens of movies with well over 100 million USD in production cost. Consumers are supposed to be what dictates the markets by their selection of products they choose to buy. They've made their choice.. entertainment. And when so many people are like that, that becomes the standard. The industrious or family focused become the oddball of the group. In democracy.. majority rules. So as the majority become dysfunctional to the cycle of life process, then all sorts of problems emerge like politicians appealing to the dysfunctional's vote.

[Roman Alymov]

2 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

Roman Alymov often points out the "Pro West" portion of Russia's leadership.  They aren't "Pro West" simply Pro-themselves just like here.

That's effectively the same, see my earlier explanations

"*  -as i have probably explained in another threads, "pro-Western" does not mean person is sleeping with Magna Carta under his pillow and knows US Consitution by heart - but that this person is using convenience of West for his personall profit - both by siding with stronger political force (as West untill very recently was the main force in Russian political game) and by using Western financial and legal institutions for what they are best tailored for: to loot own country and move assets to the safety of "rule of law".

(from https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/48238-the-kremlin-is-burning/page/13/#comment-1683221 )

 

[rmgill]

There's a point being made over on Twitter by Musk and some others that DEI is contributing to failures of various systems. Musk is specifically pointing to Boeing's big DEI push that is likely a contributing cause of the Door plug failure. In chatting with a friend about the issue last night, he noted that quality assurance is a cost center within manufacturing that competes for funding in a zero sum game. DEI programs will take money away from QA. There for, QA will suffer to what ever extent DEI is expanded. 

How much DEI funding is spent in the UK over doing things like doing actual NHS medical work or network rail track maintenance? 

At best, DEI will will rob resources from functional net contributions or fixes. At worst it will promote people into positions of authority based on qualities other than merit. 

Does it matter what the skin color is of the person installing the rivet? No. It matters if the hole is drilled correctly, the rivet is set correctly and the other detail tasks are done properly. Period. 

[Roman Alymov]

1 hour ago, futon said:

Materialism and consumers share the blame. Entertainment companies compete with each other to make as attractive of a product as possible and consumers keep getting drawn towards it. Their money and time becomes de facto investment into ever more vigorous competition between entertainment companies. Time for watching all those movies, all those TV series, playing all those games, more and more country vs country world sports. Time which otherwise could have been spent elsewhere more classical future-oriented, be it more acedemic, industry, or the immediate surrounding community and family human relations. That's how the entertainment industry has become so matured and saturated where now dozens of movies with well over 100 million USD in production cost. 

As former Media Research manager of The Walt Disney Company, i could tell you the issue of time bubget is not so simple and straightforward: entertainment companies are only to small extent shaping the way people are using their free time. Changes of demand are more important, and supply mostly follow them, unfortunatelly (othervice it would be relatively easy to shape audience into something better society by providing it with better media product - but, as USSR example clearly demonstrated, it is not working this way, at least without other factors). Soviet mass media was exactly "classical future-oriented, acedemic, industry, or the immediate surrounding community and family human relations-oriented" - so what, still it collapsed into both consumerism and following worst examples provided by Western media.....

[JWB]

 

[JWB]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

the problems in the UK stem greatly from the same reasons and causes of the same problems in the USA (and other Western nations as well).

There's a relatively fixed amount of money.  Too much of the money is spent on stupid shit now and not enough of it is invested in the future.  By that I mean real investment in real, practical projects.  Politicians expect that they won't be around when the real accomplishments are made and therefore won't get credit so why bother?  Then they calculate that they won't be around for the blame so why not virtue signal now?

In my view the difficulty partially comes from the lack of historical accountability.  With the media being a decidedly non-neutral observer there's not enough pressure to do the right thing.  Add to that the years and years of "getting away with it" and it has become habit.  When you wonder what Rome looked like near the end, this is it.  The fecklessness of the ruling class (all sides) makes a surprising case for a monarchy.

Roman Alymov often points out the "Pro West" portion of Russia's leadership.  They aren't "Pro West" simply Pro-themselves just like here.

Oh, there is plenty of money. Where i live in the Cotswolds, properties still sell for well over a million, even half falling down castles like I live by. People still drive around in top of the range audi's, range rovers and high end cars. I even see one of them flying over semi regularly by helicopter.

The problem is not the lack of money. The problem is they dont invest it here. You guys think that the rich guys go and invest in the economy, that we all enjoy the benefits. In my experience, I cant be certain where they are investing their money, but they dont do it here. Our roads are scrap. Our water system is victorian. Even the phone line I use, 40 years after privatization, is still a copper wire that drops my internet connection every time it rains. The drains overflow, the ditches are undug. The police station was sold to put in a housing estate, and the nearest one is 10 miles away.

I guess the point im making is, there is money here, very clearly. But we do not see the benefits of it. We see the benefits only 2 ways. We either tax them, and Government fulfills at least some of these fuctions. Or everything is privatized, and private investment does them. We dont seem to have either happening, and if im any kind of impartial judge, have not for as long as ive been alive. We fall between the stools. Maybe the entire country feels like that, I dont know.

I dont think our problems are identical as America, but some of the symptoms are the same. I looked at the former coal districts of Pensylvania, and can recognise even worse dereliction than we get here. We are still sustained by our chocolate box looks. We are still where the rich want to live. From what I saw of Penysylvania and South Virgninia, nobody really wants to live there. And who is really interested in investing in them to make them worthwhile places to live where they can get work?

In that regard, there is a common problem across the west. We offshored everything, to keep the prices down. What we didnt recognise is that there was a circular economy. if we dont make the jobs for the plebs, only one part of that economy is florishing. Either you fix that via subsidy or even importation tax, I dont know. But clearly we have economies that arent workng for everyone, and its really, really starting to piss people off. You see this in France, in Italy, Britain, even parts of Germany now. If there is a common problem its that, and nobody seems to have a handle on it.

 

Im not sure of the cure. But the symptoms of the get rich quick mentality of the 80's are there to see. But nobody owns up to them, or even concedes they are real issues.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

you misunderstood what I said:

"there is a relatively fixed amount of money"

not a shortage of money, the overall quantity of spendable funds has a set limit.  Governments have to recognize that by operating way past that limit for decades at a time is making currency itself valueless.  Each government congratulates itself by saying that we are doing better than {insert other government here}. It's not a meaningless metric but it is close to it.

The "market" works but there are too many variables on the scale and the current selection of leadership across the board is inadequate compared to the task at hand.

Does it not catch your attention that the challenges are everywhere?

Have you considered why China is "wealthy"?  Why they have such growth?  It's because they steal the wealth of their own population to fund their government.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well, even China has hit its own fiscal wall. They arent doing well either, largely for the reasons that Republicans ascribe (rightly or wrongly) to Biden, meddling in the economy. Ironically just 13 years ago, the Conservatives were courting the Chinese, expecting them to invest in our economy. They largely didnt, but we opened the flood gates to their cheap rubber dogshit anyway.

I suspect the way forward will be to fund investment in new economies, the digital economy (maybe even make that free at point of view which is a radical departure) or even green energy systems (because producing product at half the cost of energy you did strikes me as a good idea, whatever your reasons). Its likely not viable to bring all the departed industries back. Much of the time, such as we found with textile mills, when you do, they employ fragments of the numbers of people they did, just because new technology makes an impact.

I suspect the West has hit the buffers, just as it did in the 1970's, and requires a new change of direction. But that invariably takes leadership, and to me, leadership seems largely absent. We just seem to keep wanting to keep treading the same, tired paths, and people want a change. Any change.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

look at the bright side of it

we both more or less agree on a topic.  Next thing you know you'll be supporting Haley or DeSantis for President of USA!!

[Stuart Galbraith]

Actually I DO support Haley for President. Not so much DeSantis. Anyone but Biden, whom has utterly failed the Ukrainian people.

There, now I said it...

[R011]

1 hour ago, JWB said:

 

Look like reasonable ideas to me.  The first two should have little or no cost to taxpayers while the third might depend on what funding is available.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Now let's bring back the free milk....

[Stuart Galbraith]

How not to conduct weapons tests No1.

 

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Now let's bring back the free milk....

Seconded.

[sunday]

45 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

Seconded.

Expect a lot of resistance from the religion of climate change zealots, as cows are a source of greenhouse effect gases.

[Ivanhoe]

Can't replace cow's milk with almond milk, without killing bees;

https://www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/almond-milk-is-killing-bees/

Nor oat milk;

https://unherd.com/2022/11/oat-milk-is-killing-the-planet/

 

[rmgill]

Stuart people invest where they expect a return on that investment. 

Why would a rich person invest in internet in your area if the return is negligible or negative? Are you investing in anything? If so, what? 

[sunday]

9 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Stuart people invest where they expect a return on that investment. 

Why would a rich person invest in internet in your area if the return is negligible or negative? Are you investing in anything? If so, what? 

They should charge by the word posted in Tanknet. Investment recovered in a few months!

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, rmgill said:

Stuart people invest where they expect a return on that investment. 

Why would a rich person invest in internet in your area if the return is negligible or negative? Are you investing in anything? If so, what? 

By the same token, you lament the rise of the rust belt in America, but 'people invest where they expect a return on the investment'.

You are left with two possiblities. Either you do nothing, and allow the rust belt and depopulation of large tract of the US, and the jobs go abroad. Or, you admit the market doesnt have all the solutions to the problems, and Guvmint, either state or national level, tries to do something about it.

Me, Im just 90 miles from London. Thats practically down the roads in US terms. As one guy who came to visit me who came up from London said. 'Wow, you are practically in wales'. So again, we fall between all the stools. We arent in wales, so the welsh dont invest in us. And we are nearly in wales, so we are viewed as being a part of England that doesnt really matter.

No, I dont have the answers. 1970's style British socialism ultimately didnt work, and I dont want to return to that. Equally I can honestly say that 1980's style Thatcherite merchantileism just drove up the property prices, and the work out. There needs to be another way, but I see nobody offering one.

Im unemployed right now. I have no decent paid jobs on my doorstep other than security guard or working in tesco's in prospect. If writing doesnt work.. well lets just say, its probably got to or im fucked basically.

[rmgill]

Part of what contributed to the rust belt was competition from overseas and changing regulations that make foundry operations in the US impossible to keep up. I decry the latter. 
 

What also contributed was actions like what led to conrail. 

Edited January 12, 2024 by rmgill

[Ivanhoe]

Training provided to UK civil servants recommends suppressing and deplatforming Douglas Murray and Joe Rogan.

 

[JWB]