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Because The United Kingdom?


Mr King

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7 hours ago, R011 said:

The Bible isn't a tract on theory.  It's not a text book of science.  It's not a book on economics.  The examples of Biblical government and economy describe absolute monarchies and slavery as normal.  Those elements of the Ten Commandments that are not specifically religious are pretty much common to every civilization.  Even Christ says as much when He said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's.

Capitalism and modern democracy may have developed in Christian countries, but aren't applicable just to Christians and aren't Biblical.

There is much more to it. Will further flesh out my facts later, but on the subject of the Ten Commandments, there is a reason why number one is number one.  

Edited by Rick
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4 hours ago, Rick said:

There is much more to it. Will further flesh out my facts later, but on the subject of the Ten Commandments, there is a reason why number one is number one.  

Yes.  Priests of that God wrote it.  Do note it conflicts with the First Amendment if you want to claim modern laws are biblically based.

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15 hours ago, rmgill said:

I'd say there's a great deal of truth to that. Not just a certain amount. 

Slavery was a long time institution that was older than Christianity itself. The Americas did it because it was an aspect of forging new spaces in a frontier. The British Isles had a history of slavery in its early period. Who do you think worked Latifundium. What do you think all those Gallic and Celtic captives were set to in the Roman Empire? And it wasn't just the Romans who took slaves as captive in raids. 

Contrastingly, the slave trade is STILL going on in the Islamic world. Slaves were present at the crowning of Queen Elizabeth. One of the Arab world's rulers brought a few with him. I think it was Ibn Saud but I could be mistaken.  

 

There were also people whom were agnostic or at the very least, extermely bohemian, whom also joined the cause. For example, you probably know JMW Turners famous (and horrific) painting of a slave ship throwing its black cargo overboard in a storm.

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He painted this as direct support for the prohibition of slavery. Yet, if you read his private life, perhaps he was a Christian, but he sure didnt live like one. He never married, and fathered illegitimate children with his housekeeper.

Sure, the hub the whole thing rolled on was christian based. But some of its more influential members were members of high society, and not necessarily christian based. Which to my mind makes it even more moral. They wanted to overthrow an evil trade, without seeing any particular reward for doing so in the hereafter.

Yeah, sorry, I dont think we slaved because the Romans did it and it was perceived an inherent good. I think we did it because we saw a means of making a quick buck, and that was precisely the same reason why the Romans did it. Yes, and i suspect a racial superiority played a role too. Maybe Its too easy to overplay that though. If racial superiority were the only reason (as arguably the main reason the Nazi's did it) it rather makes it more difficult to explain why latterly we ended it. Maybe it was a case of it was morally objectionable, not really worth the cost anymore AND those rebellious North American former colonies were still doing it. Ah, fuck 'em. :D

Yeah, we all now the arabs still did it, and arguably still do it. As far as the Black Slave trade though, in anything like the numbers it existed previously, we ended it. And, here is a point Id never previously realised. Some of the Royal Navy ships that freed the slaves took some of them on board the crew, and they continued in the service of the crown freeing their African brothers. Thats a story that probably should be told more often.

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5 hours ago, R011 said:

Yes.  Priests of that God wrote it.  Do note it conflicts with the First Amendment if you want to claim modern laws are biblically based.

Read 1 Samuel 8: 4-18 describing governments run by men. 1 Samuel was written several hundred years B.C. and he tells the truth about government then and now.  

Let's break your statement down. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution begins "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Most of the Founding Fathers were very much supporters of religious faith and education but staunch opponents to government organized and government supported religion, having grown up in the aftermath of the European civil wars and inquisitions. There is no "national religion" that government can attempt to hijack to fulfill his wants, to force the people to "worship," and support via taxation. 

The U.S. Constitution is a document establishing a country's federal laws. The Bible is a book establishing the relationship between God and man. Just laws must be based on a just morality and no morality invented by man is just as history proves. How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: "An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law..." In other words, the Bible.

The influence Christianity has made the U.S. and most of Europe the moral and economic powerhouses that they are and better yet, once were. As far as I can tell, people wishing for a better life are immigrating out of non Christian countries to those who have a Christian basis.   

 

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Of course!

Reminds me of that Italian saying that reflects the contempt some Italians have for their sundry governments: Piove? Porco governo!

Somewhat free translation "Is it raining again? F*ck the Government!", meaning it is the fault of the govt that it is raining, runining a typical Italian nice day.

In this case is Piove? Porcos Tories!

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9 hours ago, Rick said:

Read 1 Samuel 8: 4-18 describing governments run by men. 1 Samuel was written several hundred years B.C. and he tells the truth about government then and now.  

Let's break your statement down. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution begins "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Most of the Founding Fathers were very much supporters of religious faith and education but staunch opponents to government organized and government supported religion, having grown up in the aftermath of the European civil wars and inquisitions. There is no "national religion" that government can attempt to hijack to fulfill his wants, to force the people to "worship," and support via taxation. 

The U.S. Constitution is a document establishing a country's federal laws. The Bible is a book establishing the relationship between God and man. Just laws must be based on a just morality and no morality invented by man is just as history proves. How does one determine when a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: "An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law..." In other words, the Bible.

The influence Christianity has made the U.S. and most of Europe the moral and economic powerhouses that they are and better yet, once were. As far as I can tell, people wishing for a better life are immigrating out of non Christian countries to those who have a Christian basis.   

 

And Christianity has been used to justify despotism and slavery.  Indeed, throughout most of Christian history, governments were thus.  The Divine Right of Kings was not disputed in the Bible nor is democracy for that matter.  Christ does not dispute the right of a foreign tyrant to rule Judea  or call for any changes in secular rule, and history is full of kings and emperors who believed themselves and were believed to be good Christians who by modern standards were incompetent, war mongering, viscous, or otherwise terrible people and rulers.

And yes, the American founding fathers were almost all Christian by belief.  A few were not, though did believe in God.  They also knew that not all Americans even then were Christian or believers in God and wrote the First Amendment so as to protect them as well.

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As for Christianity being what turned Europe capitalist and democratic (except where it isn't) - the only major pre-industrial European state that rejected absolute monarchy was Britain.  What killed monarchy on the Continent, leaving aside a detour into atheist revolution in France which it exported for a while - was the merging Middle Class who wanted political power to go with their economic power and then the working class who say that they were the ones upon whom the middle class built their fortunes.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I'm sure they are eating badly just to spite them.

People tend to eat badly because they can. See fast food and "bring me food so I don't have to cook" idiocy. Fast food of the worst kind has became something most eat on everyday basis. Health is going to suffer because of that.

Combine it with less outdoor activities etc and you have what you got.

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1 hour ago, bojan said:

People tend to eat badly because they can. See fast food and "bring me food so I don't have to cook" idiocy. Fast food of the worst kind has became something most eat on everyday basis. Health is going to suffer because of that.

Combine it with less outdoor activities etc and you have what you got.

There are a lot of people eating unhealthy because that's all they can afford. Eating healthy is more expensive than people think. For the price of a fresh salad you can buy more cheaper procesesed unhealthy food especially in a larger city where large grocery shops selling a range of fresh vegetables are rarer.

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Might be true in US to a degree (IDK about Canada) but I am not sure it is UK problem, I have looked at prices at UK supermarkets last year (I was comparing those to our local ones which are kind of horrible ATM), most of the vegetables cost +/- same as do here, maybe 10-20% more expensive on average. Meat and cheese were more expensive, but not horribly so, no more than 50%. Still overall cheaper per meal than most fast foods.

Edited by bojan
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8 hours ago, bojan said:

People tend to eat badly because they can. See fast food and "bring me food so I don't have to cook" idiocy. Fast food of the worst kind has became something most eat on everyday basis. Health is going to suffer because of that.

Combine it with less outdoor activities etc and you have what you got.

Which is true, except we have had the villainy of fast food chains for well over 50 years in this country, and we didnt have outbreaks of scurvey or Ricketts before, not even in the economic hell that was the 1970's. Instead it comes after 13 years of austerity Government, the decline of the British economy, and a cost of living crisis from the rising cost of importing food from the continent (Brexit) and rising inflation (Truss).

Yes, it could be completely unrelated, its true. But that is a very remarkable coincidence in time if so.

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6 hours ago, bojan said:

Might be true in US to a degree (IDK about Canada) but I am not sure it is UK problem, I have looked at prices at UK supermarkets last year (I was comparing those to our local ones which are kind of horrible ATM), most of the vegetables cost +/- same as do here, maybe 10-20% more expensive on average. Meat and cheese were more expensive, but not horribly so, no more than 50%. Still overall cheaper per meal than most fast foods.

But its not just the cost, its the income. Ive been on a slowly dwindling income for the past 20 years. Even switching to software development from working in a factory did little to avoid that. Ok, so I did save money by not commuting or paying into a pension, and I dont have a mortgage, but...

The real indicator to me is the rise in food banks. Yes, again that might just by greedy people living beyond their immediate means. But put it together with the rise in food related diseases, to me that looks less likely an explanation.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/feb/19/record-number-of-uk-households-depending-on-food-banks

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9 hours ago, R011 said:

As for Christianity being what turned Europe capitalist and democratic (except where it isn't) - the only major pre-industrial European state that rejected absolute monarchy was Britain.  What killed monarchy on the Continent, leaving aside a detour into atheist revolution in France which it exported for a while - was the merging Middle Class who wanted political power to go with their economic power and then the working class who say that they were the ones upon whom the middle class built their fortunes.

They arguably did the same thing in Britain, they just killed monarchy nicely by taking away all its important powers. It certainly did help that the last monarch with any real influence was a shut in for 40 years because her husband got Cholera.

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6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Which is true, except we have had the villainy of fast food chains for well over 50 years in this country...

Find a % of people who cooked own meals regularly 20-30-40-50* years ago and today and you will get your answer. Fast food is not the reason, it is a symptom of the things.

*I can tell you for myself, despite trying to cook as much as possible and avoiding fast food I am eating much more of the "junk" food than my parents did when they were ~my age. And most of my generation eats even more of the "junk" food. And let's not even talk about people in their '20s, some of which go for years w/o eating real home cooked meal. On the work, I usually order a stew from a restaurant or maybe some cooked meal while most people order a pizza or a burger, or something from a bakery. Irony is that price for a stew from a restaurant is ~50% of the price of pizza, and yet...

Also, vitamin supplements are dirt cheap those days if you don't go for a brand name version.

 

It is lack of knowledge and will, not a lack of means that are leading to the rise of such diseases in any modern country.

Edited by bojan
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There's a generational aspect. My generation grew up on home-cooked meals, and in this respect I was very lucky that my mother was an exceptional cook and had taken nutrition courses in college.

From what I hear, few GenX/GenZ folks have experienced the Old Ways.

 

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IDK about UK, around here it was gone about late-90s from 7th grade of primary school (13-14y/o). Class was known as "Domacinstvo" which could be translated as "Homekeeping" and had a wealth of useful things, from basic food preparations, nutritional facts about food, what constituted a good diet, to the basic repairs in home and safety while doing so, how to layer clothes in cold weather, make optimal furniture layout in the room etc). As with other "old school" classes it was seen as "not needed, after all everyone knows that and parents can teach that", hence current generations being clueless about loads of common things.

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