Lets Talk About Bunkers, And Other Fortifications.

[Mr King]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ySNP7dku_Y

[Martin M]

Don´t know what it is called, but I HATE that kind of filming technique. Get a headache from watching ..... and sure .... you can follow, but it´s still a pain ITA. Worse still throw in sudden and MANY short - mostly nonsense comments by unimportant people, usually not related to the subject at all, just blabbering.

 

 

Sorry rant off.

 

I would enjoy watching a goog old documentary on NORAD bunker.

 

 

Thanks, I watch it anyway :-)

Edited July 24, 2015 by Martin M

[Mr King]

Don´t know what it is called, but I HATE that kind of filming technique. Get a headache from watching ..... and sure .... you can follow, but it´s still a pain ITA. Worse still throw in sudden and MANY short - mostly nonsense comments by unimportant people, usually not related to the subject at all, just blabbering.

 

 

Sorry rant off.

 

I would enjoy watching a goog old documentary on NORAD bunker.

 

 

Thanks, I watch it anyway :-)

 

I agree Martin. I think the best term for it would be "Infotainment". I hate the style too, but from what I can find, this video is the most concise one of the building of the NORAD bunker.

[Mr King]

I imagine there were NATO missions to inspect these places after they were abandoned by the Soviets in different former Soviet bloc counties and they could get access to them?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlE9IJPotdk

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpagn0HvL8

[nigelfe]

Rather invites the question as to who claims that it is a former Sov special wpns depot. Looking at the photos I say not unless the Sovs were rather stupid. Two points leap out, internal door sills are a stupid idea, even the smallest nucs weigh a bit in their packaging and trolleys of some sort are the easy way to move them. The small doorway also makes a challenge for MHE. Once you get outside you need space and roadways for trucks and MHE to operate in loading them.

[Guest Jason L]

Rather invites the question as to who claims that it is a former Sov special wpns depot. Looking at the photos I say not unless the Sovs were rather stupid. Two points leap out, internal door sills are a stupid idea, even the smallest nucs weigh a bit in their packaging and trolleys of some sort are the easy way to move them. The small doorway also makes a challenge for MHE. Once you get outside you need space and roadways for trucks and MHE to operate in loading them.

 

The sill design isn't a stupid idea at all. It's actually fairly essential to create a simple and truly air-tight, blast and over pressure proof door. You see, the metal sill is a sealing surface for an o-ring or gasket on the metal door.

 

When you close the door and operate the locking mechanism tapered pins or some other mechanical contraption applies pressure at the door/door frame interface and voila, air tight design very resistant to overpressure until the O-ring blows through or the door is penetrated or buckled or punched through. Good luck with a huge steel frame buried in a fuck-ton concrete.

 

Blast doors with a flush floor aren't quite as simple to truly airtight.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Jason L

[Mr King]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnCXMp7O3xo

[TTK Ciar]

Topics like these always make me stare scowling at this table, wondering how I'm ever going to afford building a medieval castle:

 

name=concrete   mode=new        form=compressed cost_lb=0.03    den=2.40        lbs_cf=150      cost_cf=4.50
name=concrete   mode=new        form=cinder     cost_lb=0.03    den=1.50        lbs_cf=90       cost_cf=2.70
name=polyureth  mode=new, bulk  form=liquid     cost_lb=2.36    den=1.10        lbs_cf=68       cost_cf=160.48  url=http://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/rubber_cement/CID100006658------------------------------100002149-352168.html?spm=a2700.7724838.52.1.3O6KSB
name=polycarb   mode=new        form=plate      cost_lb=4.00    den=1.20        lbs_cf=75       cost_cf=300.00
name=pet        mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.12    den=1.44        lbs_cf=88       cost_cf=10.56   url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=nylon-6    mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.10    den=1.11        lbs_cf=69       cost_cf=6.90    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=nylon-66   mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.02    den=1.16        lbs_cf=73       cost_cf=1.46    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=polyprop   mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.05    den=0.55        lbs_cf=35       cost_cf=1.75    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=LDPE       mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.14    den=0.92        lbs_cf=58       cost_cf=8.12    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=LDPE       mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=1.02    den=0.92        lbs_cf=58       cost_cf=59.16   url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=ldpe+sheet
name=HDPE       mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.14    den=0.98        lbs_cf=61       cost_cf=8.54    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=HDPE       mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=1.16    den=0.98        lbs_cf=61       cost_cf=70.76   url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=hdpe+sheet
name=aluminum   mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.65    den=2.70        lbs_cf=168      cost_cf=109.46  url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=aluminum   mode=new        form=plate      cost_lb=2.50    den=2.70        lbs_cf=168      cost_cf=421.00  url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=mild steel mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.15    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=73.65   url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=mild steel mode=new        form=plate      cost_lb=1.38    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=677.58  url=http://www.yalesteel.net/servlet/the-Steel-Plate/Categories
name=mild steel mode=new, bulk  form=rebar      cost_lb=0.20    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=98.20   url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=rebar
name=4340 steel mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=0.35    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=171.85  url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=4340+plate
name=stainless  mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=1.10    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=540.10  url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=stainless+plates
name=rock       mode=pit, bulk  form=gravel     cost_lb=0.006   den=2.08        lbs_cf=130      cost_cf=0.78    url=http://www.weidle.com/html/pricelist.html
name=rock       mode=bulk       form=sand       cost_lb=0.0065  den=2.15        lbs_cf=135      cost_cf=0.88    url=http://www.weidle.com/html/pricelist.html
name=varathane  mode=new        form=liquid     cost_lb=4.67    den=1.30        lbs_cf=78       cost_cf=363.33
name=creosote   mode=new, bulk  form=liquid     cost_lb=0.27    den=1.05        lbs_cf=66       cost_cf=17.82
name=2x4x92 fir mode=new        form=stud       cost_lb=0.39    den=0.35        lbs_cf=22       cost_cf=8.66
name=4x8x15/32  mode=new        form=plywood    cost_lb=0.35    den=0.65        lbs_cf=41       cost_cf=14.12
name=wha 90/7/3 mode=new, piece form=rod        cost_lb=36.57   den=17.0        lbs_cf=1063     cost_cf=38874   url=https://www.hogenindustries.com:444/cart/
name=wha 90/7/3 mode=new, bulk  form=rod        cost_lb=28.89   den=17.0        lbs_cf=1063     cost_cf=30710   url=https://www.hogenindustries.com:444/cart/

[Guest Jason L]

Topics like these always make me stare scowling at this table, wondering how I'm ever going to afford building a medieval castle:

 

name=concrete   mode=new        form=compressed cost_lb=0.03    den=2.40        lbs_cf=150      cost_cf=4.50
name=concrete   mode=new        form=cinder     cost_lb=0.03    den=1.50        lbs_cf=90       cost_cf=2.70
name=polyureth  mode=new, bulk  form=liquid     cost_lb=2.36    den=1.10        lbs_cf=68       cost_cf=160.48  url=http://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/rubber_cement/CID100006658------------------------------100002149-352168.html?spm=a2700.7724838.52.1.3O6KSB
name=polycarb   mode=new        form=plate      cost_lb=4.00    den=1.20        lbs_cf=75       cost_cf=300.00
name=pet        mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.12    den=1.44        lbs_cf=88       cost_cf=10.56   url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=nylon-6    mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.10    den=1.11        lbs_cf=69       cost_cf=6.90    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=nylon-66   mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.02    den=1.16        lbs_cf=73       cost_cf=1.46    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=polyprop   mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.05    den=0.55        lbs_cf=35       cost_cf=1.75    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=LDPE       mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.14    den=0.92        lbs_cf=58       cost_cf=8.12    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=LDPE       mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=1.02    den=0.92        lbs_cf=58       cost_cf=59.16   url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=ldpe+sheet
name=HDPE       mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.14    den=0.98        lbs_cf=61       cost_cf=8.54    url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=HDPE       mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=1.16    den=0.98        lbs_cf=61       cost_cf=70.76   url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=hdpe+sheet
name=aluminum   mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.65    den=2.70        lbs_cf=168      cost_cf=109.46  url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=aluminum   mode=new        form=plate      cost_lb=2.50    den=2.70        lbs_cf=168      cost_cf=421.00  url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=mild steel mode=scrap      form=loose      cost_lb=0.15    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=73.65   url=http://www.recyclexchange.com/exchange/index.html
name=mild steel mode=new        form=plate      cost_lb=1.38    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=677.58  url=http://www.yalesteel.net/servlet/the-Steel-Plate/Categories
name=mild steel mode=new, bulk  form=rebar      cost_lb=0.20    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=98.20   url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=rebar
name=4340 steel mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=0.35    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=171.85  url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=4340+plate
name=stainless  mode=new, bulk  form=plate      cost_lb=1.10    den=7.86        lbs_cf=491      cost_cf=540.10  url=http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=stainless+plates
name=rock       mode=pit, bulk  form=gravel     cost_lb=0.006   den=2.08        lbs_cf=130      cost_cf=0.78    url=http://www.weidle.com/html/pricelist.html
name=rock       mode=bulk       form=sand       cost_lb=0.0065  den=2.15        lbs_cf=135      cost_cf=0.88    url=http://www.weidle.com/html/pricelist.html
name=varathane  mode=new        form=liquid     cost_lb=4.67    den=1.30        lbs_cf=78       cost_cf=363.33
name=creosote   mode=new, bulk  form=liquid     cost_lb=0.27    den=1.05        lbs_cf=66       cost_cf=17.82
name=2x4x92 fir mode=new        form=stud       cost_lb=0.39    den=0.35        lbs_cf=22       cost_cf=8.66
name=4x8x15/32  mode=new        form=plywood    cost_lb=0.35    den=0.65        lbs_cf=41       cost_cf=14.12
name=wha 90/7/3 mode=new, piece form=rod        cost_lb=36.57   den=17.0        lbs_cf=1063     cost_cf=38874   url=https://www.hogenindustries.com:444/cart/
name=wha 90/7/3 mode=new, bulk  form=rod        cost_lb=28.89   den=17.0        lbs_cf=1063     cost_cf=30710   url=https://www.hogenindustries.com:444/cart/

 

Concrete + shipping containers that have failed seaworthyness and can be bought for scrap prices

[toysoldier]

You have given this some thought, huh. Previously, huh.

Scary...

[Guest Jason L]

You have given this some thought, huh. Previously, huh. Scary...

 

I've spent a substantial part of my summers in bunkers for the last decade.

[toysoldier]

Remind me to be totally polite and subservient towards you...

[sunday]

Remind me to be totally polite and subservient towards you...

 

As a non-Engineer, you should!

[TTK Ciar]

Concrete + shipping containers that have failed seaworthyness and can be bought for scrap prices

I've looked into scrap shipping containers, but they have drawbacks -- only load-bearing at the corners and floor, and only 1.5mm steel everywhere else. They can be reinforced internally with wood studs or stacked cinder blocks, but at that point why bother with the containers? Rebar is only about 33% more expensive, new.

 

What would be the best way to use them? Perhaps lay them on their sides, floor facing out, reinforce them internally with cinder, and fill them with gravel and sand before stacking the next layer of containers on top of them? It would be up to the cinder blocks to support the weight of the container on top, and to prevent the roof (now facing inside) from bulging/breaking outward from the weight of the gravel.

 

Something I've wanted to try is making bricks from recycled nylon scrap (perhaps with gravel filler), but the sticking point is the cost of fuel for heating. A test rig is on my to-do list, which would demonstrate the real costs of such, but fairly far down priority-wise. Also, my wife has threatened divorce if a truck shows up and delivers a hundred tons of plastic scrap to our driveway, and orders any smaller than that drive up the price per pound.

[BansheeOne]

Some naval fortifications.

 

Wartime HQ of East German 6th Flotilla/Warsaw Pact Joint Baltic Fleet at Cape Arkona, Rügen Island, built 1979-86. Of dubious protective value; basically they dug a big pit into the sandy ground, put in three big FB-75 and nine small FB-3 bunkers from pre-fabricated parts, and shoveled three to five meters sand back on top. There was some problem afterwards (high groundwater level IIRC) which was dealt with by pouring in more concrete to raise the floors. This accounts for the low ceilings; also, the toilets in the bathroom ended up at kiddy height. Another glitch was that an aerial image of the supposedly construction site turned up in a book published on the occasion of the NVA's 30th anniversary in 1985, which had to be recalled three days after launch.

 

 

 

[BansheeOne]

Forts Casey and Worden on Whidbey Island, from the 2010 Seattle I&I.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BansheeOne]

Batterie Todt in the Pas-de-Calais.

 

 

[BansheeOne]

German WW I coastal fortifications near Oostende, Belgium, re-used in WW II.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr King]

Nice additions Banshee.

[Guest Jason L]

 

Concrete + shipping containers that have failed seaworthyness and can be bought for scrap prices

I've looked into scrap shipping containers, but they have drawbacks -- only load-bearing at the corners and floor, and only 1.5mm steel everywhere else. They can be reinforced internally with wood studs or stacked cinder blocks, but at that point why bother with the containers? Rebar is only about 33% more expensive, new.

 

What would be the best way to use them? Perhaps lay them on their sides, floor facing out, reinforce them internally with cinder, and fill them with gravel and sand before stacking the next layer of containers on top of them? It would be up to the cinder blocks to support the weight of the container on top, and to prevent the roof (now facing inside) from bulging/breaking outward from the weight of the gravel.

 

Something I've wanted to try is making bricks from recycled nylon scrap (perhaps with gravel filler), but the sticking point is the cost of fuel for heating. A test rig is on my to-do list, which would demonstrate the real costs of such, but fairly far down priority-wise. Also, my wife has threatened divorce if a truck shows up and delivers a hundred tons of plastic scrap to our driveway, and orders any smaller than that drive up the price per pound.

 

 

They're cheap, readily availlable, come pre-stackable, you can weld directly to them and the 4 corner posts+roof+floor give you a premade, basically livable/workable structure pre assembled.

 

You can fairly straightforwardly reinforce a single one for airblast using square steel channel welded into the posts. Even cheaper is you just weld the doors shut, cut open the top and then just fill the damn things with steel whisker reinforced concrete while temporarily shoring up the walls with a wood frame so they don't bulge until cured.

 

You build an outer frame/wall of them with concrete reinforcement and then you "live" inside hollow ones. Kinda like a hive for humans. I never sat down to figure out how thick you can make the roof but I'm assuming if I'm getting attacked by air it's bad news bears

[Guest Charles]

Remind me to be totally polite and subservient towards you...

Should we ever find out that Jason L's name is Stavros, with a penchant for white long haired cats; ......(checks over shoulder) then being polite and subservient towards him may not be enough .

 

Charles

Edited July 30, 2015 by Charles

[zaarin7]

There is a bunker still on Omaha beach alighned along the beach with a very thick wall facing seawards.

[Mr King]

[Ken Estes]

 

 

[ABNredleg]

Castillo San Cristóbal - San Juan, Puerto Rico.

 

In the foreground is a Panama mount from WWII, the structure in the left of the photo is a gun pit and magazine built by the Spanish in the late 1800's, while in the background is the Castillo San Cristóbal, which was built in the 1700's. The angular structure on top of the castle walls is a WWII fire-control tower.

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by ABNredleg