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The ethnic cleansing of Poland was helped as much by Hitler as Stalin seeing as the former all but eliminated the largest non-Polish ethnicity in that country.  I don't think that and the forcible removals and population switches was as good a things as some seem to think.

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5 hours ago, R011 said:

The ethnic cleansing of Poland was helped as much by Hitler as Stalin seeing as the former all but eliminated the largest non-Polish ethnicity in that country.  I don't think that and the forcible removals and population switches was as good a things as some seem to think.

Second largest, after the Ukrainians. And while the Germans were concetrating on eliminating the Polish elites at first (Intelligenzaktion) plus the Juice on a large scale (but that came later), the Soviets amused themselves with the usual 'class warfare' stuff which affected mostly the ethnic Poles. There was a trial run in the USSR in 1937-38 with Polish Operation of the NKVD, where 100k+ ethnic Poles were killed (not because of the wrong class, but wrong ethnicity). 

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1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Second largest, after the Ukrainians. And while the Germans were concetrating on eliminating the Polish elites at first (Intelligenzaktion) plus the Juice on a large scale (but that came later), the Soviets amused themselves with the usual 'class warfare' stuff which affected mostly the ethnic Poles. There was a trial run in the USSR in 1937-38 with Polish Operation of the NKVD, where 100k+ ethnic Poles were killed (not because of the wrong class, but wrong ethnicity). 

On a scale of oppressiveness from 1 to 10, the Soviets were about an eight while the Nazis about a twelve.  That ain't praise for the Soviets.

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11 minutes ago, R011 said:

On a scale of oppressiveness from 1 to 10, the Soviets were about an eight while the Nazis about a twelve.  That ain't praise for the Soviets.

You’re being too kind to the Soviets.

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26 minutes ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

You’re being too kind to the Soviets.

The Sovies can be credited for mainly screwing over their own populace rather than going to murder their neighbors 

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34 minutes ago, R011 said:

On a scale of oppressiveness from 1 to 10, the Soviets were about an eight while the Nazis about a twelve.  That ain't praise for the Soviets.


I suspect the average German was quite a bit freer (or more accurately "less oppressed") under Hitler than the average Soviet under Stalin.

I'm always amused at the lengths Hitler went to bribe high officials of the German military, rather than just resort to the mass arrests and executions that took place in the Soviet Union.  I bet even post July 20th repression didn't come close to Stalin's purges of the Red Army in the late 30s.

Same with the German churches, which the nazis were never able to entirely subdue -  Public outrage from German christians forced the nazis to hide their euthanasia programs.

I'm not saying that the nazis were less evil than the communists. Just that they had less control over German society and had to tread more carefully.

 

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2 minutes ago, NickM said:

The Sovies can be credited for mainly screwing over their own populace rather than going to murder their neighbors 

 

The Soviets murdered people the rest of the world didn't much care about.  And they had plenty more apologists in media/academia than the nazis.

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Russia could be grappling with an unreported inflation crisis as its war with Ukraine rages on, if the estimates of top economist Steve Hanke are any guide. 

Based on his own calculations, Hanke gauged the Russia's annual rate of consumer-price increases at an eye-watering 60%, far above the 3.6% level most recently reported by the Bank of Russia

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/russian-inflation-is-raging-at-60-not-the-reported-3-6-thanks-to-the-ruble-s-freefall-top-economist-steve-hanke-says/ar-AA1egyg4?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=313785f35e184936b7c2fc6f26e46b08&ei=87

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1 hour ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

You’re being too kind to the Soviets.

Nearly six million Poles murdered by the Naxzis, a good start to the planned genocide of all Poles.  About 150,000 by Stalim and a few thousand since.  About 19 million Soviet civilians killed by the Germans.    Half that many by Stalin, including the Holomodor, though he had thirty years in power over the whole country compared to three in part of the country under the Germans.

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1 hour ago, Mikel2 said:

 

The Soviets murdered people the rest of the world didn't much care about.  And they had plenty more apologists in media/academia than the nazis.

That was just Western propaganda.  Everyone in the Soviet Union and it's Socialist neighbours loved their governments, save a few weidos and crazies, and had perfect freedom.  meanwhile America lynched Negroes and it's allied regimes in the ThirD World were all practically Nazis opposed by Liberation movements. 

In actuality, most people in the West understood the Communists were a bad lot, but not much more and weren't willing to devote their lives to defeating them. or get too close to the brink of extinction.

 

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3 hours ago, NickM said:

The Sovies can be credited for mainly screwing over their own populace rather than going to murder their neighbors 

I'm sure the whole of eastern Europe and Afghanistan agree with you whole heartedly.

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Watching this now;

 

One thing Beevor said during one of his talks on Youtube is that Stalin hated the Polish. I'm not read up on the eastern side of WWII, but that came as a surprise. 

 

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10 hours ago, NickM said:

The Sovies can be credited for mainly screwing over their own populace rather than going to murder their neighbors 

There is an enduring story that any political opponents in Poland in the late 1940's, whom had the temerity to criticise the Soviet regime were executed, cremeted, and so legend has it, their remains were used to grit the roads in the winter. Which I suppose, at least in comparison with what happened at Katyn, was a lot harder for subsequent critics to point to as an excess. Soviets could learn lessons after all I guess.

The way the Soviets treated the Eastern Europeans post 1945, well into the 50's actually, was every bit as bad as that which they treated their own people. We tend to minimise that, presumably because we are the ones that left them in that position. 

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2 hours ago, Mikel2 said:

IIRC Stalin held a military command in the Russo-Polish war in 1919 and was trounced by the Poles.

IIRC, one Front of the Red Army was commanded by Yegorov, Stalin was the political commisar in that Front. The other was commanded by Tucachevsky. Yegorov refused to pass a Cavalry Army over to Tukhachevsky that he needed for the advance on Warsaw, and in that was supported (or encouraged) by Stalin. So Tukhachevsky is defeated, he goes home and blames Stalin, and before he knows it, he gets it in the neck from Lenin, Trotsky and pretty much everyone for the failure of the Polish war. Within a few years Lenin is dead, Trotsky is thrown out and subsequently murdered, Yegorov and Tukhachevsky are purged, and Poland is occupied. Never let it be said Stalin didnt remember others debts.

 

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8 hours ago, Tim Sielbeck said:

I'm sure the whole of eastern Europe and Afghanistan agree with you whole heartedly.

Before Germany invaded them and killed nearly one tenth of their population 

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5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

IIRC, one Front of the Red Army was commanded by Yegorov, Stalin was the political commisar in that Front. The other was commanded by Tucachevsky. Yegorov refused to pass a Cavalry Army over to Tukhachevsky that he needed for the advance on Warsaw, and in that was supported (or encouraged) by Stalin. So Tukhachevsky is defeated, he goes home and blames Stalin, and before he knows it, he gets it in the neck from Lenin, Trotsky and pretty much everyone for the failure of the Polish war. Within a few years Lenin is dead, Trotsky is thrown out and subsequently murdered, Yegorov and Tukhachevsky are purged, and Poland is occupied. Never let it be said Stalin didnt remember others debts.

 

It is simplification, Russian Civil War was endless chain of conflicts all against all. 

"Trotsky repeatedly personally appears on the front line, in August 1918 his train was almost captured by the White Guards, and later that month he almost died on the destroyer of the Volga River Flotilla. Several times Trotsky, risking his life, makes speeches even to deserters. At the same time, the turbulent activity of the Pre-Military Council, which continuously traveled along the fronts, is increasingly beginning to irritate a number of its subordinates, leading to many loud personal quarrels. The most significant of them was Trotsky's personal conflict with Stalin and Voroshilov during the defense of Tsaritsyn in 1918. According to a contemporary of the events, S. I. Lieberman, although Stalin's actions then violated the requirements of military and party discipline, which was condemned by the Central Committee, most communist leaders disliked the "upstart" Trotsky and supported Stalin in this conflict [171].

The conflict on the Eastern Front. Replacement of the Commander-in-Chief

At the end of April 1919, the commander of the Eastern Front, S. S. Kamenev, performed a detour maneuver on the southern flank of the Russian army and hit its stretched formation, the Whites began to retreat to the Urals. Kamenev planned to pursue Kolchak deep into Siberia, despite the fact that he had only half of the troops left: the other was sent to the Southern Front. However, Commander-in-Chief I. I. Vatsetis imposed a ban on Kamenev's plan, fearing that the Whites in Siberia had strong reserves, and ordered Kamenev to stop in the Urals. Trotsky supported Vatsetis not only for strategic reasons, but also for political reasons. Lenin insisted that the Red Army establish contact with the Hungarian Soviet Republic, and Trotsky was in a hurry to free himself on the Eastern Front. On May 5, 1919, Trotsky removed Kamenev, who did not want to give up the pursuit of the Eastern Front of the Whites, from the post of commander. Commissars of the Eastern Front Lashevich, Smilga and Gusev declared solidarity with the removed commander, appealed to Lenin and Stalin with a request to restore Kamenev, giving him freedom of action, and achieved the cancellation of the decision of Trotsky and Vatsetis. On May 29, Kamenev was re-appointed commander of the Eastern Front and continued the pursuit of the Urals, winning new victories on the Eastern Front [172].

The conflict is aggravated by the fact that by the beginning of July 1919, a Special Department of the Cheka uncovered a conspiracy of a number of people close to Vatsetis. Vatsetis himself falls under suspicion. Despite all Trotsky's attempts to protect his appointee, Lenin, at the plenum of the Central Committee of the RCP (b) on July 4, 1919, decided to remove Vatsetis from the post of commander-in-chief, and replace him with the commander of the Eastern Front, S. S. Kamenev. The Central Committee also removed Smirnov, Rozengolts and Raskolnikov, who were close to Trotsky, from the Revolutionary Military Council: Smilga and Gusev took their places. On July 5, 1919, Trotsky, in protest against such a decision, went on a demarche, resigning from the posts of the pre-Military Council, the People's Commissariat of Military Affairs and a member of the Politburo of the Central Committee, asking the Central Committee to leave him only one of the "ordinary" members of the Revolutionary Military Council. Despite the harsh criticism of Trotsky in the Kremlin, for the country he remained the leader of the October Uprising and the founder of the Red Army: his resignation would alarm the army and the party. Therefore, at Lenin's suggestion, the Politburo did not agree with Trotsky's resignation and unanimously adopted a resolution assuring Trotsky of deep respect and full confidence and asking him to continue "work on the Southern Front, the most difficult, most dangerous and most important at the present time." Lenin, as a sign of confidence, handed Trotsky an empty order form with his signature [173] with the words: "I approve of your decisions, and at the top of the page you can write any decision, and my signature will be ready on it." Trotsky agreed to remain in office[174].

Immediately after that, Trotsky had disagreements with the new commander-in-chief S. S. Kamenev about the direction of the main counterattack of the Red Army. Kamenev proposed to attack Tsaritsyn and Kuban, Trotsky considered it more correct in terms of socio-political conditions (support by the peasant and working population, a dense network of roads and railways) to attack in Ukraine in order to cut off the Volunteer Army from the Cossacks. The dispute was submitted to the Politburo, and it agreed with the arguments of the commander-in-chief, authorizing the main offensive in the eastern sector [175].

Returning to the Southern Front, Trotsky received an encrypted telegram signed by Dzerzhinsky, Krestinsky, Lenin and Sklyansky that already on July 8 Vatsetis had been arrested on suspicion of links with conspirators."

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4 hours ago, NickM said:

Before Germany invaded them and killed nearly one tenth of their population 

I know the Bundeswehr send some lads to Afghanistan ("further east than grandpa got"), but I didn't know they were that busy! 😉

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31 minutes ago, R011 said:

I know the Bundeswehr send some lads to Afghanistan ("further east than grandpa got"), but I didn't know they were that busy! 😉

Well, seems like they were not told that some of Grandpas got as far as Khabarovsk and may be even further East. As POWs.

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

I know the Bundeswehr send some lads to Afghanistan ("further east than grandpa got"), but I didn't know they were that busy! 😉

Wrong "them", of course. 

(And I don't mean the giant ants)

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