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6 hours ago, rmgill said:


Can't we just let the dead lie and move on please? Why do we have to get down to objecting to even rudimentary honors to war dead graves? What's next? Dig them all up and churn the remains into a landfill? 

Well in this case he was not quite dead yet. apparently he had been involved in veteran groups for years. Have to wonder how well known his service was? part of the problem is there is not much WWII history on Tik Tok, so how would the young staffers ever know about his history?  

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On 9/6/2023 at 1:52 PM, R011 said:

I don't know enough Natie people to know what they're thinking, but I know I would be dissatisfied with political leadership that's big on virtue signalling and very short on solving issues like provoiding drinkable water and livable housing.

The schools were a horrible thing both in concept (though arguably as well intentioned as one can exppect from 19th century people) and execution.  They've had a lasting negative effect on Native communities, but they're long gone and their effcts already well understood a couple of decades ago.

The schools were reprehensible. but the current issues about housing and water are mostly own goals by the band administrators and the people themselves. Most isolated communities do not have fresh water systems and people use wells. The housing that gets provided, rarely lasts, partly as it is low quality and unsuited for the regions. But also the people in them rarely take care of them.

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11 minutes ago, R011 said:

Hunka actually served a regime actively killing Jews.  For all their liking of Nazis regalia Azov hasn't done anything of the sort and serves an elected government headed by a Jew.

Weeeelll...

War crimes of the armed forces and security forces of Ukraine: torture and inhumane treatment. Second report

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Here is, for example, an account by one of the torture victims, Robert Aniskin, ‘I had not taken part in the military actions and I had not enrolled in the self-defense forces, nor had I stood guard at a checkpoint. It was the Azov battalion that arrested me. They beat me with rifle butts during the arrest. Then they questioned me using electro-shock devices and beating me right and left. A

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Here is an account of a self-defense fighter Yuriy Slusar who was beaten with a saw chain and received threats of violence to his wife and daughters, ‘On 4 November I was arrested by the Azov and SBU men when I was at work in the town of Druzhkovka. I was taken to Kramatorsk. They beat me on the head and feet with a saw chain, fired a gun close to my ear, threatened to shoot me in the head or to shoot my feet. They humiliated me and said they were going to rape me. They threatened to bring my wife and daughters in and torture them in front of me. I could not eat for three days. The only food I got was water and rusks.

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Here is for example an account by German Mandrikov, ‘I am just a civilian, I had not participated in the military actions but the SBU investigators forced me to incriminate myself through torture.

In early October I went to see my mother and was arrested by unknown men. They took me to the airport of Mariupol where for three days in a row I suffered beastly torture. They used both psychological and physical abuse:
they gave me electric shock, suffocated me with a plastic bag, beat on the feet with a tire iron, poured freezing water on me, etc. The torturers had an Azov insignia on their sleeves.

They threatened to rape my mother and bride. I could not bear the torment any longer and signed some documents without even reading them.’

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Denis Gavrilin, another victim of torture who was captured by the Ukrainian National Guard on 31 July 2014 and handed over to the Azov battalion, describes the same torture technique: ‘I was blindfolded; they put a cloth on my face and poured water. I could not see anything. And my hands were handcuffed behind my back. They were holding my head from behind and pouring water over the cloth that was covering my face. I do not know whether they were pouring water from a teapot or a bottle…I felt as if I was drowning. Then they brought me to… and then did the same thing.’

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Stanislav Shchedrovsky, another victim captured by the Azov battalion, also describes this method of torture: ‘during the beating, my ribs were broken, rib cage displaced and lungs damaged. Then they brought me to the court where I signed, under threats, some documents. I did not even have a chance to read them trough. Those people kept beating and threatening me. They put a damp cloth on my skin and applied electric shock. It happened often. My rib cage was crashed. Later, I had a lung surgery. They beat me on the head and hands. My head swelled up, I could not move my arm, and almost all my ribs were broken and liver displaced. ’

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Yegor Kharitonov talks about being tortured in the Azov battalion by means of electric shock and gives an example of the Ukrainian side refusing to hand a friend of his over for prisoner exchange in order to suppress the evidence of torture. ‘I was taken to the Mariupol airport and beaten by 3 or 4 people from the Azov battalion. They hit me on the head with a butt of an  assault rifle and also on my nose and hands; they kicked me in the groin. They would lower me down into a hole 3-4 meters deep and throw slag blocks and stones in there. Those would land on my head, back, arms, and legs. They fired shots over my head, connected wires to my feet and ran electric current through them. They burned me with their cigarettes and just tormented me. Then I was taken to the Mariupol SBU where the beatings continued. When the exchange happened my friend was left in the hospital because at the medical  examination before the exchange it was discovered he had a puncture in his lung under one of the ribs due to the torture.’

Etc.

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1 hour ago, Colin said:

Well in this case he was not quite dead yet. apparently he had been involved in veteran groups for years. Have to wonder how well known his service was? part of the problem is there is not much WWII history on Tik Tok, so how would the young staffers ever know about his history?  

I was speaking of the optics of Reagan and Helmut going to the cemetery. We’ve had a spate of monument removal and destruction in the US which has rankled me on the aspect of the war dead. 
 

Oh and history, that’s not taught any more. 

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He's toast, Jim.

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Canada's speaker quits after Ukrainian Nazi veteran's speech

3 hours ago

The speaker of Canada's House of Commons lower chamber, Anthony Rota came under fire after publicly praising a Ukrainian World War II veteran, who it transpired had fought for the Nazis.

Anthony Rota, the speaker of Canada's House of Commons, said he would quit on Tuesday, following days of pressure over a guest speaker in the lower house of parliament called in for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's visit to Ottawa last week.

Rota told members of the house that he had made a mistake by inviting a 98-year-old ex-soldier, Yaroslav Hunka, to attend the session last Friday. 

Soon after, it emerged that Hunka, who received two standing ovations, had served in one of Adolf Hitler's Waffen SS units during World War II. Russia called the incident outrageous. 

Rota had publicly lauded Hunka during the session, calling him a war hero. 

"That public recognition has caused pain to indviduals and communities, including the Jewish community in Canada and around the world ... I accept full responsibility for my actions," Rota, a member of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's Liberal party, said. 

He said his resignation would take effect on Wednesday and that a deputy speaker would fill in for him until a replacement was found. Rota also expressed "profound regret for my error" and said the "initiative was entirely my own." Hunka lives in Rota's voting district.

The speaker had also apologized on Monday. 

Russia quick to condemn and seek to capitalize on error

Hunka had been introduced as a member of the First Ukrainian Division, but that division was also known as the Waffen-SS Galicia Division or the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS. These volunteer fighters made up "a Nazi military unit whose crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented," according to the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center.

Several Canadian politicians had called on Rota to step down, and Foreign Minister Melanie Joly added her voice to the chorus earlier on Tuesday. 

"What happened on Friday is completely unacceptable," she told reporters at parliament. "It as an embarrassment to the House and to Canadians, and I think the speaker should listen to members of the House and step down."

[...]

https://www.dw.com/en/canadas-speaker-quits-after-ukrainian-nazi-veterans-speech/a-66932160

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An honorable move, but a concern is it may give a free pass to those who failed to perform due diligence. Not to mention a lost opportunity to have a national discussion on knee-jerk foreign policy.

 

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14 hours ago, R011 said:

Hunka actually served a regime actively killing Jews.  For all their liking of Nazis regalia Azov hasn't done anything of the sort and serves an elected government headed by a Jew.

We know for sure that he served against the people who had been murdering his people in very large numbers. That's it. So far there's been no evidence or allegation of personal criminal conduct. 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Waldheim#Allegations_of_war_crimes

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Allegations of war crimes
On 27 April 1987, the United States Departments of Justice and of State announced that evidence amassed in an investigation conducted by the Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations (OSI) had established a prima facie case that Waldheim participated in Nazi-sponsored persecution during World War II and therefore that his entry into the United States was prohibited by federal statute. This marked the first time that a head of state had been put on an immigration watchlist.[51][52] The 232-page internal Department of Justice 9 April 1987 investigative report was released in 1994 by that agency, and it is available at the agency's website.[53] The report catalogues evidence that, the U.S. government concluded, proved that Waldheim had taken part in, among other actions: the transfer of civilian prisoners to the SS for exploitation as slave labor; the mass deportation of civilians—including Jews from Greek islands and the town of Banja Luka, Yugoslavia—to concentration and death camps; the utilization of antisemitic propaganda; the mistreatment and execution of Allied prisoners; and reprisal executions of hostages and other civilians.[54]

Additional allegations of participation in Nazi crimes, with citations to captured Nazi documents and other records, were leveled in a 1993 book by Eli Rosenbaum, the former U.S. federal prosecutor who had directed the World Jewish Congress investigation that led to the New York Times' initial exposure of Waldheim's hidden Nazi-era past in 1986. The book also alleged that the Soviet Union was aware of Waldheim's alleged involvement in Nazi crimes and that, after vetoing other candidates in order to get Waldheim installed as U.N. Secretary General in 1972, used that information to extract concessions at the United Nations that facilitated KGB espionage in the United States, and that the CIA's failure to anticipate this possibility was a major failure for the intelligence agency.[55] In a letter to the editor published in Foreign Affairs magazine two years after Rosenbaum's book was released, former Finnish ambassador to the U.N. Max Jakobson (one of the candidates whom the USSR had vetoed) wrote, "The Soviets knew everything about Waldheim. That is why they preferred him."[56]

Throughout his term as President (1986–1992), Waldheim was officially deemed persona non grata by the United States and, officially or informally, by nearly every other nation in the world outside the Arab world.[46][57]

Was Waldheim more Nazi? He was not SS, for starters.

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7 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

We know for sure that he served against the people who had been murdering his people in very large numbers. That's it. So far there's been no evidence or allegation of personal criminal conduct. 

True, which is why he was allowed to stay here and keep his citizenship.  Which is right.  He doesn't get to be honoured by Parliament for fighting for the enemy side, though and, unlike Azov, his bosses were actual Nazis guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace.

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2 hours ago, R011 said:

He doesn't get to be honoured by Parliament for fighting for the enemy side, though and, unlike Azov, his bosses were actual Nazis guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace.

Except he did just get honored by Parliament. Got standing ovations too. 🤣

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Freeland is supposedly a credible voice on Ukrainian history, and yet she has applauded the country’s Nazis on multiple occasions.

https://www.readthemaple.com/is-chrystia-freeland-a-fraud-or-a-nazi-sympathizer/

Meanwhile, many MPs, from several political parties, have tried to justify their applause for Hunka by pointing out that they assumed he’d been vetted by the government and didn’t know he was a Nazi.

This argument is suspect because while Hunka was not introduced as a Nazi, the description given of him should have made it apparent — Rota said that Hunka was “a Ukrainian Canadian war veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians.” Anyone with even a basic understanding of the Second World War, which should include MPs, would intuitively understand that this meant Hunka was working with the Soviet Union’s mortal enemy: the Nazi regime. 

But, for argument’s sake, let’s take these MPs’ claims at face value. Let’s assume none of them have a primitive understanding of the war, or that it’s not a problem that they’re willing to clap for anything and anyone framed as being against the Soviets or Russians. There’s at least one MP, who has (to the best of my knowledge) yet to say anything on the issue, for whom this excuse can’t apply: Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland.  

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Suddenly we learn 😉

'Canada has a really dark history with Nazis in Canada': immigration minister
Marc Miller says Canada’s troubled war criminal past needs to be confronted

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-war-criminal-past

In this episode, we expose Canada's decades-long sheltering of the Ukrainian Waffen-SS Galicia Division, a World War II Nazi German military unit formed predominantly of volunteers from Ukraine. We delve into the shocking revelation of how the country has become a safe haven for Nazi war soldiers living under official cover.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wionews.com/videos/gravitas-canadas-troubling-history-with-nazi-soldiers-from-wwii-to-today-640331/amp

 

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I was refering to Strannik's post with the "Browserballett" skit that makes fun of contemporary political debate habits to call anyone with vaguely right-wing or simply conservative opinions a Nazi, and particularly of pre-emptive defensive complaints by rightwingers that they will be called a Nazi for holding said opinions, by absurdly transplanting them into the actual Nazi era. He seems to think it can somehow be applied to the Canadian situation and people try to argue actual Nazis are not real Nazi, which I'm not seeing anywhere.

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Canada like the US had "Bund Societies" which were very pro-Nazi and I have always suspected that eugenics was a driver in much of our treatment of indigenous people form the late 1800 to WWII. There was fertile ground for Nazi beliefs. 

As for this event, while the speaker fell onto his sword, it's clear a lot of people and their staff failed to do a 1+1=2 review and ask questions. Not a very inspiring moment in Canadian politics. As a Canadian in a international forum, it's quite embarrassing. 

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1 hour ago, Colin said:

Not a very inspiring moment in Canadian politics. As a Canadian in a international forum, it's quite embarrassing. 

No worries, the political stupidity is impressive but so is the taking of responsibility. Resigning when you could blame it on a staffer? How honorably old fashioned. 

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Clown world

Quote

B.C. employers get $5,000 more if apprentices ‘self-identify’

Federally-funded incentive doubles if construction apprentices claim they are memhers of an "equity deserving group"

B.C. construction companies which hire trade apprentices who self-identify as other than a straight, white male with no disability will receive double a new government incentive, pushing it to $10,000 for the first year of employment.

The $10 million Apprenticeship Services program, being offered by the B.C. Construction Association (BCCA) and announced September 27, provides cash incentives to small and medium-sized construction employers who hire and register first-year apprentices in up to 39 Red Seal trades.

Funding for what the BCCA calls the ”most far-reaching construction trade apprenticeship drive ever undertaken in British Columbia” is under the federal government’s Canadian Apprenticeship Strategy, which launched in September 2022. 

Since then the project has issued financial incentives for the hiring and registering of 1,329 apprentices and sent payments to more than 700 employers.

The BCCA will pay employers $5,000 for each first-year apprentice they register in any eligible Red Seal trades. However, if an applicant self-identifies as a woman, person with disabilities, Indigenous, racialized Canadian or from the 2SLGBTQI+ community, the incentive doubles to $10,000.

Employers can register up to two first-year apprentices before March 31, 2024.

So far, 51 per cent of the project apprentices have declared themselves to be a member of one of an “equity deserving group,” according to a BCCA release.

“The Apprenticeship Services project has become one of the most successful workforce development programs the BCCA has ever launched,” said Chris Atchison, BCCA President. “The timing of this initiative couldn’t be better. Our industry is hungry for skilled workers.”

While the project has registered apprentices in 35 different Red Seal trades, almost $6 million in funding has gone to B.C. employers registering first-year carpenters, construction electricians and plumbers, the BCCA noted.

According to BuildForce Canada, the construction industry needs to recruit 299,200 new workers across the country by 2032, due predominantly to the expected retirement of 245,100 workers, or about 20 per cent of the current labour force over the next decade.

https://www.westerninvestor.com/british-columbia/bc-employers-get-5000-more-if-apprentices-self-identify-7608453

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