Because, Canada

[urbanoid]

To me it looks more like typical 'we wuz oppressed, wypipo bad' agenda.

Edited September 6, 2023 by urbanoid

[Wobbly Head]

51 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

To me it looks more like typical 'we wuz oppressed, wypipo bad' agenda.

Pretty much the Natives know the situation with the residential schools and are more pissed at being used as political tools and the old wounds that this is opening up. They also hate the Indigenous are always right narrative as it makes any court case look like a money grab to normal people than actually address the core argument of the case.

 As for Trudeau they hate him. They even call him by his Indian name, Walking Eagle as in he is too full of Sh@t to fly.

[sunday]

15 hours ago, rmgill said:

People were burning down churches in response to the story were they not? 

Precisely. Propaganda has consequences.

[R011]

5 hours ago, Wobbly Head said:

Pretty much the Natives know the situation with the residential schools and are more pissed at being used as political tools and the old wounds that this is opening up. They also hate the Indigenous are always right narrative as it makes any court case look like a money grab to normal people than actually address the core argument of the case.

 As for Trudeau they hate him. They even call him by his Indian name, Walking Eagle as in he is too full of Sh@t to fly.

I don't know enough Natie people to know what they're thinking, but I know I would be dissatisfied with political leadership that's big on virtue signalling and very short on solving issues like provoiding drinkable water and livable housing.

The schools were a horrible thing both in concept (though arguably as well intentioned as one can exppect from 19th century people) and execution.  They've had a lasting negative effect on Native communities, but they're long gone and their effcts already well understood a couple of decades ago.

[R011]

7 hours ago, urbanoid said:

To me it looks more like typical 'we wuz oppressed, wypipo bad' agenda.

They were oppressed, but the focus on te graves by both left and right is misplaced and being used for political purposes rather than to make any improvements for Native people.

[Angrybk]

As a happy-friendly note, my wife of 15 years is Canuck (Anglophone family from Montreal) and we spend every summer at their lake house (more of a glorified shack) in the Laurentians. Frickin' beautiful and full of smart, scrappy, friendly people who pound booze and are good at fixing stuff -- Canadian Lake Culture is pretty great. 

Last time around my wife and I did a getaway to Montreal Proper and I had one of the best meals of my life, and I'm an ex-NYCer so I'm picky -- sort of a French-Korean fusion place, astonishingly attractive wait staff and amazing oysters.

Will always be a Canadian fanboy, still need to get to Toronto (I really only know Quebec). Still hate poutine but my daughter is obsessed with it. 

Edit to add: I think every culture likes to think of themselves as "we're super nice but if you push us too far we'll snap and kill you," but in my experience Canadians take it to new levels, maybe because it takes so much more to make them actually snap. "Sorry! Sorry!" While clubbing you to death with a tire iron, etc.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Angrybk

[rmgill]

On 9/5/2023 at 8:57 PM, R011 said:

Did I claim that didn't happen?  Did I say it was a good thing that it did? 

No, I'm pointing out that there are folks who were doing what we in the west consider egregious for actions committed by people long dead, but revenge upon people today and the church. 

All because people were making hay for political reasons? 
 

On 9/5/2023 at 8:57 PM, R011 said:

Do these arsons and other acts of vandalism retroactively justify taking kids from their homes, punishing them for speaking their own languages, leaving them incarcerated, underfed, and lacking proper medical attention, and subjec to abuse?

No. 

Does the past actions by people long dead justify burning down churches that have nothing directly to do with the children taken from homes under GOVERNMENT authority? Perhaps they should burn down the Parliament building in the respective provincial government instead? 

[glenn239]

23 hours ago, urbanoid said:

To me it looks more like typical 'we wuz oppressed, wypipo bad' agenda.

With the usual core truths to many of the issues, the usual elephants in the room no one will speak of, (the Catholic Church was not taking kids from reservations because the reservations were a Mecca, they were motivated to do so because conditions there could be very bad due to bad parenting, violence, and alcohol abuse).  No one is really sure how far Trudeau is willing to let things go on the appeasement front, but the trend is that the more the government and media and various groups pander to Indigenous demands, the angrier the situation gets and the more demands that get made.

Edited September 7, 2023 by glenn239

[Wobbly Head]

1 hour ago, glenn239 said:

With the usual core truths to many of the issues, the usual elephants in the room no one will speak of, (the Catholic Church was not taking kids from reservations because the reservations were a Mecca, they were motivated to do so because conditions there could be very bad due to bad parenting, violence, and alcohol abuse).  No one is really sure how far Trudeau is willing to let things go on the appeasement front, but the trend is that the more the government and media and various groups pander to Indigenous demands, the angrier the situation gets and the more demands that get made.

There are Native land claim cases in New Brunswick that are going after the whole province stating there was never any formal treaties for land in place. Meaning technicaly the Natives would own 100 percent of the land in New Brunswick if they win the case.

 

 

[R011]

I see Glenn is describing some fantasy universe again.  No, kids weren't being removed by the Church because of conditions on Reserves, they were being removed by the government to be sent to residential schools by law intended to "kill the Indian in the child".  All Native children between five and fifteen were required to go to these schools, few or no others being provided,  and the RCMP would physically take them from their parents if they tried to keep them at home.

[JWB]

TORONTO (AP) — The speaker of Canada’s House of Commons apologized Sunday for recognizing a man who fought for a Nazi military unit during World War II.

https://apnews.com/article/canada-parliament-apology-ukraine-nazi-eedc22e1d810011c412953168a4cee46?taid=6510e9b1a28487000110b36f&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

[Markus Becker]

4 hours ago, JWB said:

TORONTO (AP) — The speaker of Canada’s House of Commons apologized Sunday for recognizing a man who fought for a Nazi military unit during World War II.

https://apnews.com/article/canada-parliament-apology-ukraine-nazi-eedc22e1d810011c412953168a4cee46?taid=6510e9b1a28487000110b36f&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

I wonder what future CF will outdo this CF. It's a challenge because knowledge is hard but I have faith that politicians will lower the bar again,. 

[Colin]

5 hours ago, JWB said:

TORONTO (AP) — The speaker of Canada’s House of Commons apologized Sunday for recognizing a man who fought for a Nazi military unit during World War II.

https://apnews.com/article/canada-parliament-apology-ukraine-nazi-eedc22e1d810011c412953168a4cee46?taid=6510e9b1a28487000110b36f&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

Yes poor vetting, likley some staffers got all wet about the optics of a Ukrainian WWII vet and failed to do any googling. The Speaker is taking the hit for this, but I suspect the PMO was equally involved. There is this piece though :

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/09/25/did-canada-parliament-really-invite-nazi-yaroslav-hunka/

 

 

Hunka, originally from the village of Urman in Ternopil Oblast, served in the 14th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division “Galicia” during WWII. This division was formed on 28 April 1943 and consisted mainly of volunteer ethnic Ukrainians operating under German command.

The unit was renamed the First Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army before surrendering to the Western Allies in 1945.

Did the division take part in Nazi crimes?

Historical accounts indicate that most Ukrainians who joined the First Ukrainian Division during World War II were not motivated by a desire to assist Hitler and the Nazis in conquest and genocide. Instead, these Ukrainians saw the division as an opportunity to resist Russian imperialism and try to establish an independent Ukrainian state free from Soviet domination.

The majority of division recruits came from the Ukrainian region of Galicia, which shared its name. Prior to 1939, Galicia was part of Poland and had relative cultural autonomy. In 1939, the Soviet Union occupied Galicia, leading to mass killings and repression. Thus, when the Germans first arrived in Galicia, many locals saw it as a chance to free themselves from Soviet occupation.

While the division did fight under overall Nazi command, Ukrainian recruits objected to its genocidal policies, even if they felt compelled to ally with Germany militarily to achieve Ukrainian self-determination.

“They [the soldiers of the First Ukrainian Division] identified with the fight for an independent Ukraine. In 1943, [when they joined forces with Nazi Germany], the world was still unaware of the full extent of Nazi’s atrocities. Only later, when the Western Allies entered the Nazi concentration camps in 1945, the world discovered the full extent of Hitler’s crimes,” noted Ukrainian historian Mykola Posivnych.

 

Although soldiers of the First Ukrainian Division faced accusations of killing civilian Poles and Jews, the Nuremberg Tribunal did not find the unit guilty of any war crimes.

Furthermore, Canada initiated an independent investigation into the alleged presence of Nazi war criminals who had immigrated to Canada after World War II. In 1985, the government established the Commission of Inquiry on War Criminals in Canada, commonly known as the Deschênes Commission, to investigate these allegations. The Commission conducted extensive hearings over nearly two years, interviewing witnesses and reviewing evidence. Ultimately, the Deschênes Commission concluded that none of the members of the First Ukrainian Division who had settled in Canada were found guilty of committing war crimes during their service in World War II.

So, when the CIJA organization accused the Ukrainian veteran of involvement in the Holocaust, it would have been good to provide some evidence. While individual experiences in wartime can significantly differ, accusations of participating in something as horrific as the Holocaust require substantive proof. It should be thoroughly examined if CIJA has credible documentation or testimony indicating Yaroslav Hunka’s involvement. Unsubstantiated charges risk unfairly tarnishing a person’s reputation.

The complexities of World War II extend beyond a simplistic good versus evil narrative. Ukraine did not exist as an independent state, and many Ukrainians saw the turmoil of war as an opportunity for self-governance. However, competing visions divided pro-independence groups. Ukrainians had difficult choices and clashing perspectives during the war. Some welcomed the Nazis as liberators, while others continued supporting the Soviet war effort. By war’s end, some Ukrainians had collaborated with the Nazis; others joined the Soviet resistance.

 

While the glorification of Hunka may be a dubious or exaggerated step, even more groundless is an accusation of him as a Nazi, given that soldiers like him were motivated to prevent further Soviet atrocities in Ukraine, which still remain overlooked by historians today.

[NickM]

It all seems to be a convenience:

One year folks are upset that collaborative units ( the cossacks) were repatriated to the USSR, the next year, giving shelter to similar units is A bad thing (the Belarus files books or the Belarus Secret TV movie from Kojak.

[JWB]

3 hours ago, Colin said:

Yes poor vetting,  .....

Understatement.

[Ivanhoe]

6 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

I wonder what future CF will outdo this CF. It's a challenge because knowledge is hard but I have faith that politicians will lower the bar again,. 

Its only a matter of time.

 

[BansheeOne]

8 hours ago, Colin said:

Yes poor vetting, likley some staffers got all wet about the optics of a Ukrainian WWII vet and failed to do any googling.

Poor command of history, rather. Specific unit records aside, any "Ukrainian who fought Russians in WW II" would be sufficiently affiliated with the Nazis to become a PR disaster. Jeez, 40 years ago Ronald Reagan got a hard time for visiting that Bitburg military cemetery with Helmut Kohl which included the graves of some Waffen-SS troops. If some 20-something staffer didn't know, I'd at least expect the Speaker himself to.

[Stuart Galbraith]

It still looks awful 40 years on.

 

Still, at least The Ramones got a banging song out of it.

[Ivanhoe]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trudeau-blames-russian-disinformation-nazi-veteran-canadian-parliament

Quote

"I think it's going to be really important that all of us push back against Russian propaganda, Russian disinformation and continue our steadfast and unequivocal support for Ukraine, as we did last week, with announcing further measures to stand with Ukraine in Russia's illegal war against it," Trudeau said.

I believe I know who was involved;

 

[sunday]

After "not true Scotman", now there is "not true Nazi".

[rmgill]

Well by all of that logic, we should be treating British Troops as enemies of the state as well long after the wars. They conducted some degree of what we'd call war crimes in the southern campaign. Then there was the impressment of US sailors that led to the War of 1812. 

Can't we just let the dead lie and move on please? Why do we have to get down to objecting to even rudimentary honors to war dead graves? What's next? Dig them all up and churn the remains into a landfill? 

[R011]

5 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trudeau-blames-russian-disinformation-nazi-veteran-canadian-parliament

I believe I know who was involved;

Seems to me that these were two different statements not necessarily intended to be directly related.   It is, of course, possible that he was hoping they'd be connected so Russia might get blamed rather than a Liberal MP.

Yes, this does help Russia, just as any own goal counts toward the other team's score.

[Ivanhoe]

"Blame Russia" is a convenient and accepted excuse for almost anything these days. 

 

[Ivanhoe]

https://humanevents.com/2023/09/25/jack-posobiec-and-gavin-wax-adl-silent-on-canadian-recognition-of-nazi-veteran

Quote

 

Jack Posobiec and Gavin Wax called out the hypocrisy of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and elaborated on the history of the Waffen SS on his show Monday in response to Justin Trudeau and Volodymyr Zelensky giving a Nazi collaborator a standing ovation.

Wax began, “We've seen a scrubbing of the ADL website with all references to the Azov Battalion being a neo-Nazi military unit based in Ukraine”, noting that it’s out of “hypocritical convenience.”

“Nazis of yesterday are now whitewashed and cleansed of their past sins because they may be useful in the current geopolitical struggle against Russia.”

 

 

[R011]

19 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

https://humanevents.com/2023/09/25/jack-posobiec-and-gavin-wax-adl-silent-on-canadian-recognition-of-nazi-veteran

 

Hunka actually served a regime actively killing Jews.  For all their liking of Nazis regalia Azov hasn't done anything of the sort and serves an elected government headed by a Jew.