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Because, Canada


shep854

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The graves of native children were never secret nor were they mass graves.  In most cases they had cheap, wooden markers that didn't last in cemetaries that wee never well funded and were left completely untended when the schools closed.  The graves tell us nothing we didn't know before as these deaths were well documented and the numbers, that do indicate a great deal of neglect and abuse, are known. 

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What graves are you talking about?

I understand the only things that are there are rocks, more or less.

Or that is the current stance of the Canadian establishment that regardless of what those irregularities in the terrain are, the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of "something"?

Edited by sunday
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5 hours ago, sunday said:

Or that is the current stance of the Canadian establishment that regardless of what those irregularities in the terrain are, the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of "something"?

When the press whips up an outrage storm, look to the next election to see why.

 

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The blame for the residential school system is mostly laid on the successive governments responsible rather than the Church which operated more of them than other churches.  That the Church has screwed up their damage control almost as badly as they have on the sexual abuse file is entirely their fault.

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

The blame for the residential school system is mostly laid on the successive governments responsible rather than the Church which operated more of them than other churches.  That the Church has screwed up their damage control almost as badly as they have on the sexual abuse file is entirely their fault.

Really?

Is the object of fake accusations now the responsible of the damage it could suffer because of its "bad damage control"?

Do you have any respect for the attempt to make amends? Or that is foreign to your worldview?

Are you willing to apply that to other recent ethnic/religious persecutions?

Edited by sunday
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8 hours ago, sunday said:

Really?

Is the object of fake accusations now the responsible of the damage it could suffer because of its "bad damage control"?

Do you have any respect for the attempt to make amends? Or that is foreign to your worldview?

Are you willing to apply that to other recent ethnic/religious persecutions?

What fake accusations?  That the Catholic Church, as well as other churches, ran a program of cultural genocide characterized by the same kinds of abuse and neglect seen at places like Mount Cashel and the  Magdalene Laundries?  The abuses the Church acknowledges?  Nothing fake about that.  I should be impressed that the Church's response has been belated and weak that they've been dilatory, at best, in releasing records?

The Church has been bereft of strong and principalled leadership since St. John Paul died, first because Benedict was well meaning but too old to take full control and next because Francis is more interested in virtue signalling about climate change and so-called social justice.

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1 minute ago, R011 said:

What fake accusations?  (...)

The accusations of burying kids in unmarked graves.

1 minute ago, R011 said:

The Church has been bereft of strong and principalled leadership since St. John Paul died, first because Benedict was well meaning but too old to take full control and next because Francis is more interested in virtue signalling about climate change and so-called social justice.

But, according to you, that strong and principalled church, was the responsible of all those abuses.

Sorry, but you could not have your own cake and eat it. I think that is the phrase.

So lets concede that you hate the Roman Catholic Church, and stop there.

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27 minutes ago, sunday said:

The accusations of burying kids in unmarked graves.

But, according to you, that strong and principalled church, was the responsible of all those abuses.

Sorry, but you could not have your own cake and eat it. I think that is the phrase.

So lets concede that you hate the Roman Catholic Church, and stop there.

That's the very least of the complaints against the Church and the other operators of residential schools and the easiest to defend against given it wasn't true.  But that's not why people are angry with the residential schools system.

Yes.  The Church and other institutions failed to live up to those principals.  That doesn't mean that StT. John Paul would have done as little as his successors in dealing with the issues when they became evident.

Because I think their public affairs efforts have been crappy, it means I hate the Church?  Because I think the Church has had serious problems like other religious and secular institutions means I hate the Church?    Because I'm sympathetic to guys like Murph when he criticizes the Church for being partisan leftist rather than being focussed on faith means I hate the Church?

 

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

What fake accusations?  That the Catholic Church, as well as other churches, ran a program of cultural genocide characterized by the same kinds of abuse and neglect seen at places like Mount Cashel and the  Magdalene Laundries?  The abuses the Church acknowledges?  Nothing fake about that.  I should be impressed that the Church's response has been belated and weak that they've been dilatory, at best, in releasing records?

(...)

You wrote this ^^^^

34 minutes ago, R011 said:

(...)

Because I think their public affairs efforts have been crappy, it means I hate the Church?  Because I think the Church has had serious problems like other religious and secular institutions means I hate the Church?    Because I'm sympathetic to guys like Murph when he criticizes the Church for being partisan leftist rather than being focussed on faith means I hate the Church?

 

So, yes, partially, but also totally when considering what you wrote in your former post.

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So legitimate, non exclusive, criticism of the Roman Catholic Church means the critic must be anti Catholic.  No wonder the few bad apples in that organization were able to get away with abuses so long with people like you covering for them.

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3 minutes ago, sunday said:

Legitimate critics are legitimate. Critics based in hearsay or incomplete data are not legitimate, being possibly baseless.

So the abuse in residential schools (not at all exclusively by the RCC) is hearsay now is it?  Okey dokey.

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18 minutes ago, R011 said:

So the abuse in residential schools (not at all exclusively by the RCC) is hearsay now is it?  Okey dokey.

I was still referring to the supposed unmarked mass graves.

I daresay the Canadian government was the ultimate culprit in the residential schools matter, as the Catholic tradition is to keep the local culture as far as possible, as proved by so many grammars of native languages in Spanish-civilized America compiled by missionary friars. But you were not taught about that, of course.

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1 hour ago, sunday said:

I was still referring to the supposed unmarked mass graves.

 

The ones I said never existed?  The Canadiuan governments I said were respoonsible?  Fell free to continue your assault on straw witrhout my help.

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25 minutes ago, R011 said:

The ones I said never existed?  The Canadiuan governments I said were respoonsible?  Fell free to continue your assault on straw witrhout my help.

 

15 hours ago, R011 said:

The blame for the residential school system is mostly laid on the successive governments responsible rather than the Church which operated more of them than other churches.  That the Church has screwed up their damage control almost as badly as they have on the sexual abuse file is entirely their fault.

There is still the accusation of deficient damage control for something that is responsibility of the government.

Were you expecting the RCC to engage in blame shifting to the Government? I wonder what stance would have you adopted, considering past history.

Edited by sunday
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14 hours ago, sunday said:

 

There is still the accusation of deficient damage control for something that is responsibility of the government.

Were you expecting the RCC to engage in blame shifting to the Government? I wonder what stance would have you adopted, considering past history.

 

The situation is that Indigenous claims and issues are elevated to an unquestioned status on the media and in the government.  So, on the question of mass graves, they will report finding more, but the government never investigates the sites to establish the truth of anything, never pushes back on overdrawn Indigenous rhetoric, generally speaking, never actually does its job.  It's been getting more toxic since Trudeau took over, with accusations of "murder" now common, and accusations of "genocide" fully anticipated.   People are interested in finding out whatever the truth may be, but do not trust the Liberal government to do that if it means confronting Indigenous claims.

The general expectation in casual conversations is that conditions in the Catholic schools will have been somewhat as described, but that deaths of students will have been caused mostly by the diseases of those ages, and conditions on the reserves will have been no better and probably much worse in many cases.  

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4 hours ago, glenn239 said:

 

 So, on the question of mass graves, they will report finding more, but the government never investigates the sites to establish the truth of anything

 

In fact all the alleged grave sites have been or are being investigated.  Now go back to making up numbers about the war in Ukraine.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_gravesites

This lists all of the suspected grave sites from 1974 to the present.   As can be seen on that list, with the exception of one jawbone found at Star Blanket Cree Nation in 2021, of the 19 sites from 2021 onwards only a couple excavations been done to recover physical evidence to verify claims.   From May 2021, the total number of claimed or possible/proposed graves is 4,356, the number of excavations 2, the number of confirmed burials via excavation is 0.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12466913/mass-grave-indigenous-children-Canada-excavation-dig-catholic.html

Doubts are growing about the scale of historic abuse at Canada's notorious residential schools for indigenous children after a dig at one of the country's most high-profile sites uncovered no bodies.

The wiki page lists two excavations, one at Pine Creek, one starting at Kamloops recently.  So 2 out of the 19 sites have had excavations, and neither found any evidence for the claims being made.

 

Edited by glenn239
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On 9/4/2023 at 6:05 PM, R011 said:

The ones I said never existed?  The Canadiuan governments I said were respoonsible?  Fell free to continue your assault on straw witrhout my help.

People were burning down churches in response to the story were they not? 

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52 minutes ago, rmgill said:

People were burning down churches in response to the story were they not? 

Did I claim that didn't happen?  Did I say it was a good thing that it did?  Do these arsons and other acts of vandalism retroactively justify taking kids from their homes, punishing them for speaking their own languages, leaving them incarcerated, underfed, and lacking proper medical attention, and subjec to abuse?

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2 hours ago, glenn239 said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_gravesites

This lists all of the suspected grave sites from 1974 to the present.   As can be seen on that list, with the exception of one jawbone found at Star Blanket Cree Nation in 2021, of the 19 sites from 2021 onwards only a couple excavations been done to recover physical evidence to verify claims.   From May 2021, the total number of claimed or possible/proposed graves is 4,356, the number of excavations 2, the number of confirmed burials via excavation is 0.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12466913/mass-grave-indigenous-children-Canada-excavation-dig-catholic.html

Doubts are growing about the scale of historic abuse at Canada's notorious residential schools for indigenous children after a dig at one of the country's most high-profile sites uncovered no bodies.

The wiki page lists two excavations, one at Pine Creek, one starting at Kamloops recently.  So 2 out of the 19 sites have had excavations, and neither found any evidence for the claims being made.

 

Interesting how you limit the search to just the last two years which allows you to ignore all the previous investgations and found graves and pretend that because investiagtions at the other sites are not complete, they're not being done.  Typical number mangling.

Edited by R011
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11 hours ago, R011 said:

Interesting how you limit the search to just the last two years which allows you to ignore all the previous investgations and found graves and pretend that because investiagtions at the other sites are not complete, they're not being done.  Typical number mangling.

But it's in the past few years that it's spiraled.  Even five years ago the issue existed but it wasn't so politically toxic.  As you are perfectly aware, there are a host of wedge issues that collectively describe an Indigenous portfolio, a range of fronts including vast territorial claims, language and culture, government services in remote regions, vast economic support but with no oversight, political control veering towards independence, and veto power over all forms of economic development.  Mass graves from past alleged crimes, this is just one of many fronts.   If you are in Canada you not ignorant of these facts. 

Canadians want the truth of the matter on the mass graves issue, but many I talk to have become cynical that there are going to be large scale excavations because these will probably contradict the claims being made.  Just like the two excavations listed on that link have failed to verify the claims made.   Canadians, while supportive of all of these issues, are concerned, over the scope of this Indigenous agenda.   

 

Edited by glenn239
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