rmgill Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, R011 said: All the BLM protests here that I saw were very well attended by police. Unlike protests in the US, these protests were rarely accompanied by violence or destruction of property. The point is were people allowed to gather in close groups and exercise a right to protest? What limits were enforced upon them and who was held accountable if folks didn't social distance or not? Conversely is there any clear differentiation that a congregation of religious worshipers were treated differently? I get that the US's rule of treating right to protest and right to worship as something that is supposed to be equal, I would assume that such should be the same under English common law and rights/laws in Canada, but if they're not treated equally and noone's going to censure the hair for standing next to/close to folks... but apparently churches will have the social distancing enforced and suffer penalties if they don't...well, then there's a clear disparity of who can gather in what way. Smacks of nobility and special privileges of the elite. The key thing about freedoms is that if the people in power can and do decide that group X can exercise the freedom to gather and group Y cannot because that's not granted the dispensation from the government well, then it's not freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 16 minutes ago, R011 said: Actions no different from ones in the US. It's somewhat different, but in the vein of horses of a different color (or size) as opposed to substantially different like mineral vs vegetable. And it's more of an issue across a good bit of the English speaking western world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Just now, rmgill said: The point is were people allowed to gather in close groups and exercise a right to protest? What limits were enforced upon them and who was held accountable if folks didn't social distance or not? Conversely is there any clear differentiation that a congregation of religious worshipers were treated differently? I get that the US's rule of treating right to protest and right to worship as something that is supposed to be equal, I would assume that such should be the same under English common law and rights/laws in Canada, but if they're not treated equally and noone's going to censure the hair for standing next to/close to folks... but apparently churches will have the social distancing enforced and suffer penalties if they don't...well, then there's a clear disparity of who can gather in what way. Smacks of nobility and special privileges of the elite. The key thing about freedoms is that if the people in power can and do decide that group X can exercise the freedom to gather and group Y cannot because that's not granted the dispensation from the government well, then it's not freedom. Note that the church protesters were, in fact, allowed to protest with minimal interference, just like BLM. And why should churches be any more exempt from masking and distancing as shops and restaurants? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Because freedom of religion has a special place in the west and it's something of a third rail. Under US law we'll have the Supreme court opine in all manner of things but won't attempt to proscribe how a church conducts it's internal business. The church had a fence erected around it by....? The church protestors were protesting an issue that was keeping them from worshiping. Freedom to assemble to protest is one freedom. Freedom to assemble to worship one's gods is another freedom. Being able to worship X but not Y is a problem. Being able to protest but not being able to worship is a problem. Being able to protest X but not Y is another problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 In a democratic society, we also expect religious institutions to obey relevant secular laws. Church employees, for instance, must receive the minimum pay, benefits, and health and safety measures as other employees. Child and multiple marriages and spousal abuse are not excused. They weren't being prevented from worshipping. There are ways for therm to do that within the guidelines. Other churches can live with them. They were required to follow the same secular laws as everyone else. If this pastor's ego is more important than the law and the safety of his parishioners, it isn't up to the rest of society to enable his entitlement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 (edited) On 4/13/2021 at 12:28 PM, Rick said: Well stated as you have the habit of doing. But a question regarding "...Various groups who think the state is fascist just for not letting them flaunt the rules..." would depend what said rules are and perhaps more importantly how they are enforced. Sure, and I specifically noted that above. Like other rights, freedom of religion sometimes conflicts with what is (also) thought to be in the common interest. Muslims and Jews get problems in Europe once in a while over shared fundamental accessories of their respective faith like male circumcision of infants (i. e., performing a non-essential invasive medical procedure on someone who cannot legally consent) or kosher/halal butchering which contradicts laws for humane treatment of animals. There was a major and somewhat acrimonious debate over the former in Germany some years ago, which ended with specific exceptions enacted in law. Orthodox Muslims of course have a whole additional laundry list of frequent issues, some shared by other conservative religious groups, including Christian - co-education of boys and girls, specifically in sports, sex ed in particular, sometimes the German ban on homeschooling in general (at least until COVID hit), and other traditions referring to gender roles, including those with no actual religious basis like female gender mutilation. Recently read about trouble in Bulgaria where the local Orthodox Church sticks to triple full submerging when baptizing infants even after a baby died during the ritual. Compared to that, the restriction to keep five feet distance, possibly wear a mask and no singing during services for reasons of pandemic control is positively benign, and so is the enforcement with what I can only call excessive Canadian politeness in those videos. I can't think of a government which outright banned religious ceremonies right now, though there might have been some instances. At least when it was suggested to forego Easter services here as we went into the third wave recently, the churches told the government to pound sand, and the issue was dropped quickly. As elsewhere, there have been complaints over exaggerated measures and sometimes heavy-handed enforcement here, though like in other fields, violence during protests usually escalated from the side of protestors. If cracking down on that makes authorities a bunch of Nazis, then I guess so is the Israeli government. Quote Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox lockdown protesters clash with police in Jerusalem Rioters opposed to virus restrictions burn trash bins, throw stones at officers, who disperse crowd with water cannons By TOI staff 10 February 2021, 6:02 am Clashes broke out on Tuesday night in Jerusalem between police and ultra-Orthodox protesters opposed to coronavirus lockdown restrictions. Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox men gathered in the capital’s Shabbat Square in the Mea Shearim neighborhood to protest the lockdown rules aimed at curbing a high rate of coronavirus infections, especially restrictions against opening schools. An initial protest was organized with the approval of police and included speeches from community leaders. The demonstrators packed together tightly and almost none wore face masks. At the end of the demonstration, hundreds of the protesters made their way to the nearby Bar Ilan street, where fighting broke out between them and police. Some demonstrators blocked traffic, burned trash bins, damaged vehicles and heaved stones and other objects at officers. Police used water cannons to disperse the protest and arrested at least one person on suspicion of disturbing public order. [...] There have been widespread violations of coronavirus regulations in Israel, but the most flagrant have been in parts of the ultra-Orthodox, or Haredi, community. Some Haredi groups largely adhere to the restrictions, while others ignore them, including by opening schools and holding massive funerals. Recent weeks have seen several Haredi funerals for top rabbis who died of COVID-19 attended by thousands despite the national lockdown to prevent the virus from spreading. Outdoor gatherings were restricted to just 10 people; some of the funerals of the leading rabbis drew more than 10,000. There have also been violent riots against police, including clashes in Bnei Brak that saw ultra-Orthodox men torch a bus and attack its driver and a passerby. Coronavirus czar Nachman Ash on Tuesday warned the ultra-Orthodox community that large crowds such as those at the funerals would further spread the coronavirus and lead to additional deaths. Ash noted that while the morbidity rate in the Haredi community, which has been far higher than the national average, is dropping, it “is still high and worrying.” Despite morbidity in the ultra-Orthodox community being higher than in any other single societal group, Haredi lawmakers have decried attempts to enforce the virus guidelines in their communities, and have labeled such efforts discriminatory and unhelpful. [...] https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ultra-orthodox-lockdown-protesters-clash-with-police-in-jerusalem/ Edited April 14, 2021 by BansheeOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 6 hours ago, BansheeOne said: Compared to that, the restriction to keep five feet distance, possibly wear a mask and no singing during services for reasons of pandemic control is positively benign, It's easily argued that singing is a function that has a positive effect on mental health. So it's not a benign restriction. Mental health in all of this has suffered severely. The suicide rate is through the roof. So is substance abuse and domestic violence. One of the components of public worship IS a mental health stimulous that folks derive. The same thing happens for people who go to large dance parties and festivals. Just because we're geeks and we tend to prefer the comfy confines of our studies with books, computers and games doesn't mean that other folks don't suffer from the lack of that public and human contact. So, no, such restrictions are not benign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 We can't gather in pubs, clubs, and restaurants either. Churches aren't at all unique. It turns out big public gatherings tend to turn into super spreader events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 And do note: they are not prevented from worshipping there or at least were not until that church repeatedly and deliberately continued to break the law and only prevented from attending that one location. They, and everyone else in Alberta, can continue to attend in person services, though with restricted numbered per service. Nothing prevents holding multiple services in a day. Nothing prevents remote services, and nothing prevents drive-in services. These are specifically permitted by Alberta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 Meanwhile, in the Canadian Parliament https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-15/canadian-mp-naked-zoom-parliament-will-amos/100071110 A Canadian MP has apologised after appearing naked during a virtual parliamentary sitting, saying he was getting changed in his office and did not realise his camera was on. The member's accidental exposure was drawn to the attention of Speaker Anthony Rota after Prime Minister Justin Trudeau finished answering a question in the House. "As you know, since the beginning of the pandemic we have tried to emphasise the importance of respecting … the dress code here in the House," said Bloc Québécois MP Claude DeBellefeuille. "Today we've set a new record. We've seen a member during Question Period improperly dressed — that is, unclothed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssnake Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 Home office, Stage Four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 13 hours ago, R011 said: And do note: they are not prevented from worshipping there or at least were not until that church repeatedly and deliberately continued to break the law and only prevented from attending that one location. They, and everyone else in Alberta, can continue to attend in person services, though with restricted numbered per service. Nothing prevents holding multiple services in a day. Nothing prevents remote services, and nothing prevents drive-in services. These are specifically permitted by Alberta. I have been attending church, when I can, through covid. When physical attendance was not possible we attended by Zoom. It was not optimal, but it was what it was. For the last eight months or so, with the contagion under control, normal church services have resumed with conditions. Masking early on, no physical contact, no singing and maintaining social distancing. Things have progressed. Now we can sing (not that I can sing, my voice does not make a joyful noise to the Lord when I try to sing, so I don't). However I am also aware of this case in my city. https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-our-lady-of-lebanon-cluster-choir-singer-spread-droplets-14-metres/dba63bc7-e012-47e5-97c5-fb513ce64a0f Quote New research has found droplets from a church choir singer infected with coronavirus travelled through the air and infected congregation members up to 14 metres away. The "Our Lady of Lebanon" cluster in Sydney's west was one of the first large super-spreading events in NSW during the early months of the pandemic. A dozen people contracted the virus at the Harris Park church last year, and an 80-year-old grandmother died from the illness. It has since been determined a member of the church choir standing on a loft three-and-a-half metres above the congregation unknowingly spread the virus. It was a few days before the onset of symptoms, and he was at his most infectious when he sang at four services. The evidence now suggests he effectively sprayed particles into the air while convection currents carried them towards people sitting in pews up to 14 metres away. Given that case, limits on active worshiping would seem not just prudent but very necessary. No one is telling people not to worship, but instead to respect and to love, in a Christian way, their fellow worshipers and follow reasonable orders. The claim of increased suicide from not being able to worship is a furphy, if people are vulnerable then they are vulnerable and faith groups should have been able to accommodate that in slightly less than conventional ways, like Zoom, one on one distanced meeting, phone calls and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 14 hours ago, R011 said: We can't gather in pubs, clubs, and restaurants either. Churches aren't at all unique. It turns out big public gatherings tend to turn into super spreader events. Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Do the same precautions pretain to government and their meetings? If so, has said precautions been enforced to the same degree as everyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWB Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 22 hours ago, rmgill said: The suicide rate is through the roof. Not so: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-ivory-tower/202104/why-did-us-suicides-decrease-in-2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobbly Head Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 On the Canadians always apologizing. A Quebec Liberal MP is apologizing after he was seen naked on a video screen while MPs participated in a hybrid parliamentary session on Wednesday. William Amos, who represents the western Quebec riding of Pontiac, appeared on-screen without clothes moving around his office. Amos appeared on a video feed that only MPs and House of Commons staff can see, separate from the public-facing ParlVu video system. CBC News obtained a photo that shows Amos standing without clothes in what appears to be an office with Canadian and Quebec flags in the background. He is holding something that blocks the view of his private parts. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/william-amos-liberal-mp-naked-parliament-1.5988128 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, Rick said: Not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Do the same precautions pretain to government and their meetings? If so, has said precautions been enforced to the same degree as everyone else? If you mean offices, photo ops, press conferences, legislatures, and city councils, then yes they have. Even political conventions have been mostly on line. Edited April 15, 2021 by R011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobu Posted April 15, 2021 Share Posted April 15, 2021 On 4/14/2021 at 1:53 PM, R011 said: We can't gather in pubs, clubs, and restaurants either. Churches aren't at all unique. It turns out big public gatherings tend to turn into super spreader events. Going to agree with you on this, as special emphasis devoted to freedom of religion can devolve into the extension of special treatment to those who would abuse it. November 2020, in one of America's COVID epicenters. Estimated attendance this masks-optional event: 7000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 2 hours ago, R011 said: If you mean offices, photo ops, press conferences, legislatures, and city councils, then yes they have. Even political conventions have been mostly on line. What are the social distancing requirements in metric? Does this look like the requisite distances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 8 hours ago, JWB said: Not so: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-ivory-tower/202104/why-did-us-suicides-decrease-in-2020 I am actually astonished by this. Folks I know who work in the substance abuse field indicate that stressors for folks are off the scale. The fact that violent crime is prob ably as high if not higher than it was in the 70s is also a significant factor. J Looking around we see a spike in the US Military. https://www.ngaus.org/about-ngaus/newsroom/guard-saw-spike-suicides-late-2020 https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/09/29/mili-s29.html Surges early in the year. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/23/covid-pandemic-rise-suicides/ I'd like to see the CDC data when they get it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssnake Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 6 minutes ago, rmgill said: What are the social distancing requirements in metric? Does this look like the requisite distances? Nope... but then again, only one in 1,000 Covid infections seem to occur outdoors. Would be nice though if there was consistency, like opening outdoor dining rather than curfews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 5 hours ago, rmgill said: What are the social distancing requirements in metric? Does this look like the requisite distances? Not only months ago, but treated no differently from the crowd at the church protest. Unlike those protesters, all these people are masked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 UK guidance is that outdoor masking is appropriate if the 2m separation cannot be maintained, but masking up is not an excuse to get closer. Masking when outside is uncommon, though, and people are much worse at distancing when outdoors when there are crowds. This is why I haven't been to the local outdoor market for 8 months. For the noted infection at 14m from a singer, this could be attributable to poor ventilation in the church. If the air isn't exchanged frequently enough, you will see an increase in concentration of small droplets suspended in the air. there's only so much you can do in some spaces - air conditioning if present may simply not be up to the task of moving enough air quickly enough. There are good reasons for the guidance regarding shared enclosed spaces - for example it is recommended that you minimise your time in shops if you have to go there and that's in part because of the increased risk from "stagnant" air, as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 10 hours ago, R011 said: If you mean offices, photo ops, press conferences, legislatures, and city councils, then yes they have. Even political conventions have been mostly on line. Thanks. I did not know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted April 16, 2021 Share Posted April 16, 2021 10 hours ago, R011 said: Not only months ago, but treated no differently from the crowd at the church protest. Unlike those protesters, all these people are masked. Which officers were going to go up to the PM to order him to social distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 On 4/16/2021 at 12:02 PM, rmgill said: Which officers were going to go up to the PM to order him to social distance? Which officers went up to people at the church protest and asked them to distance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now