Meanwhile In Balkans...

[wilhelm]

Poor Poland.

[urbanoid]

Poor Wilhelm.

 

Somehow it's yet another user referring to my country when having problem with MY posts. That's quite low, but it's not that I expect any better from some people.

Edited December 3, 2015 by urbanoid

[Lionel Mandrake]

Poor me.

 

Left to do it all on my own.

 

Maybe some nice Polish girls will take pity and help me out the next time I am in Europe...

[urbanoid]

Oh, you must feel so much better with your pathetic self now, after posting this.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Somehow it's yet another user referring to my country when having problem with MY posts. That's quite low, but it's not that I expect any better from some people.

 

Interesting how this position is combined with “And 'pissing off' Russia is good. “ few posts before

[Lionel Mandrake]

The very definition of pathetic is thinking that every damn thing everywhere has something to do with Russia and that the whole world revolves around some Warsaw - Moscow axis - the screwed-over by all sides Ukrainians execpted.

 

Montenegro is hardly a linch-pin of anything much less the final push that will topple the Russian Empire.

 

It is backwater, back-woods cleptocracy of little value to anyone other than to the mafia & beach front developers - but I repeat myself.

 

What is interesting is that their leadership is willing to risk considerable internal unrest by joining NATO.

 

Why? What are the benifits?

 

Whatever they are, Russia hardly enters into the picture at all.

[urbanoid]

 

 

Somehow it's yet another user referring to my country when having problem with MY posts. That's quite low, but it's not that I expect any better from some people.

 

Interesting how this position is combined with “And 'pissing off' Russia is good. “ few posts before

 

In a reply to a comment about 'pissing off Russia', when the topic concerned Russia. What does Poland have to do with it?

 

And I have never accused anyone here (or on any other forum) of being a paid troll. That's not how the discussion should look like, period.

 

Edited December 3, 2015 by urbanoid

[urbanoid]

The very definition of pathetic is thinking that every damn thing everywhere has something to do with Russia and that the whole world revolves around some Warsaw - Moscow axis - the screwed-over by all sides Ukrainians execpted.

 

Russia said it's about Russia, by being so much opposed to it.

 

And it had nothing to do with Warsaw, indeed.

[wilhelm]

Poor Wilhelm.

 

Somehow it's yet another user referring to my country when having problem with MY posts. That's quite low, but it's not that I expect any better from some people.

Low?

You previously posted some drivel comparing Russians to Islamic extremists and cockroaches.

I even quoted it so you couldn't try and edit it out later.

So of course some people have problems with your posts.

 

For the record, of course I don't think you are a paid poster. It's a silly tactic.

I think with you it's on a more personal level than that.

[wilhelm]

 

 

Somehow it's yet another user referring to my country when having problem with MY posts. That's quite low, but it's not that I expect any better from some people.

 

Interesting how this position is combined with “And 'pissing off' Russia is good. “ few posts before

 

 

It consumes him.

[urbanoid]

Ah, you won't cease your silly manipulations.

 

I won't be explaining that again after I already did, quite sure that anyone with half a brain has understood.

Edited December 3, 2015 by urbanoid

[wilhelm]

Why not a referendum on NATO, or won't that go as planned?

[wilhelm]

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said the decision to invite Montenegro was not directed at Russia. "NATO is not a threat to anyone ... it is a defensive alliance, it is simply meant to provide security," Kerry told a news conference.

 

 

I know Kerry has a history of stupid comments, but couldn't he have tried to use different words considering the bombing in 1999?

[Lionel Mandrake]

For the record, I do.

 

Classic (poorly done, low budget) agitprop - bring everything back to one subject/point/topic and hammer it.

 

The quote that "Russia says it is about Russia" proves my point.

 

Russia can claim that anything it wants is about Russia - does that make it so? Oh, only if taking the usual Russian bs/bluster/paranoia at face value serves some useful purpose.

 

Now how about our new, dear Montenigran allies and their direct security situation and how it impacts NATO and its mambers?

 

Oh, right silly me - too germane...

[urbanoid]

Um, no, that proves nothing. Maybe except you being an asshole and proud of it, with your ad personam comments and accusations. Now I can only repeat what I said I'm being paid for.

[wilhelm]

"A path toward NATO is inevitable for Serbia. It is a question about the future of the country we want to live in. Some processes are natural, and NATO integration is one of those," Dejan Miletic, a professor at the Belgrade department of Lincoln University and president of the NGO Centre for Globalisation Studies, told SETimes

 

 

Of course.

He's also the chairman for the Lincoln Universities Belgrade Department for SPAS (Serbian Patriots for Atlantic Serbia).

 

Lol.

Edited December 3, 2015 by wilhelm

[Panzermann]

 

"A path toward NATO is inevitable for Serbia. It is a question about the future of the country we want to live in. Some processes are natural, and NATO integration is one of those," Dejan Miletic, a professor at the Belgrade department of Lincoln University and president of the NGO Centre for Globalisation Studies, told SETimes

 

Of course.

He's also the chairman for the Lincoln Universities Belgrade Department for SPAS (Serbian Patriots for Atlantic Serbia).

 

Lol.

Yep. The usual actors of USian circles for the democratic betterment.

 

They still live in the cold war it seems and obsessed with Russia.

[bojan]

...

A partnership with the Alliance -- including membership -- is important for the improvement of the state's defence, security and economic sectors, as well as its EU integration.

 

No, it is easy distraction for current crop of assholes and something majority of Serbian population is opposed.

 

As for Montenegro in Nato, it strikes me as 2 possible explanations. Clearly the immigration crisis through the Balkans needs some kind of organisation, Nato might be helpful for that. One can point to the supposed entry of some of the Paris attackers though Greece as showing the Balkans as being a likely soft spot in European security.

Uh, IIRC Greece was still a NATO member, whole lot of good it did to stop immigrants.

Is UK going to deploy infantry Bn to shot them as they try to pass, since it is only way of stopping them? No?

[bojan]

Revisionist? No one will argue that Yugoslavia was bombed and then Montenegro was part of it. But it wasn't because of Montengerin actions, but Serbian. WHY one would want to bomb Montenegro-independent state? Do they have some wet dreams about Great Montenegro and are on their way to invade, annex and cleanse the shit out of their neighbours? Even without taking their capabilities to do so into consideration, that simply wouldn't fly with NATO - that is if they were a member.

 

In 1990s they were 'hijacked' by Belgrade's policies and goals, they couldn't care less about. Tough luck.

 

You still believe that crap about "poor peaceful Albanians"? Fact was and still is that NATO supported de-facto terrorist organization, enabled it to come to power, establish de-facto narco trafficking state, hotbed for terrorists and jihadists, where in 16 years nothing was solved, only swept under the carpet and where other nationalities quietly (or not so, see 2004) were cleansed.

And Albanians still do their antics. Check what happened in Macedonia recently.

If it was by those same criteria of "freedom fighters" that was applied to Kosovo NATO would be bombing Kiev day and night.

 

I really have to agree with Simon here - Polish Logic ^TM with Saint NATO that never did anything wrong and everyone should join because "Evil Russia" and "Defend Poland and Baltics".

 

And if Montenegro joins NATO and shit hits a fan with Albanians (and it will, trust me), what is NATO gonna do? Bomb them? Send Polish expeditionary force to help? Or say that they are being oppressed and more things should be given to them?

Edited December 3, 2015 by bojan

[urbanoid]

 

Revisionist? No one will argue that Yugoslavia was bombed and then Montenegro was part of it. But it wasn't because of Montengerin actions, but Serbian. WHY one would want to bomb Montenegro-independent state? Do they have some wet dreams about Great Montenegro and are on their way to invade, annex and cleanse the shit out of their neighbours? Even without taking their capabilities to do so into consideration, that simply wouldn't fly with NATO - that is if they were a member.

 

In 1990s they were 'hijacked' by Belgrade's policies and goals, they couldn't care less about. Tough luck.

 

You still believe that crap about "poor peaceful Albanians"? Fact was and still is that NATO supported de-facto terrorist organization, enabled it to come to power, establish de-facto narco trafficking state, hotbed for terrorists and jihadists, where in 16 years nothing was solved, only swept under the carpet and where other nationalities quietly (or not so, see 2004) were cleansed.

And Albanians still do their antics. Check what happened in Macedonia recently.

If it was by those same criteria of "freedom fighters" that was applied to Kosovo NATO would be bombing Kiev day and night.

 

I really have to agree with Simon here - Polish Logic ^TM with Saint NATO that never did anything wrong and everyone should join because "Evil Russia" and "Defend Poland and Baltics".

 

And if Montenegro joins NATO and shit hits a fan with Albanians (and it will, trust me), what is NATO gonna do? Bomb them? Send Polish expeditionary force to help? Or say that they are being oppressed and more things should be given to them?

 

 

Where did I say that NATO was right in its support of KLA? Where did I say a word about peaceful Albanians? Or, for that matter, that NATO was entirely right in general in 1999? What is not true in the statement that then-Yugoslavia was realizing Serbian goals rather than Montenegrin? Wasn't the fight against KLA more Serbian than Montenegrin? The whole shitstorm began with my doubts about scenarios in which NATO bombs Montenegro in the FUTURE, unless it joins.

 

Memory about NATO bombings in Montenegro is a rather subjective argument, more about feelings than reality.

 

About Kosovo, I assure you I know what shithole we've unintentionally created. And I was against the official recognition by the former government. Not for moral reasons, but still...

Edited December 3, 2015 by urbanoid

[Lionel Mandrake]

God as my witness either you are mad as a hatter or your manager is an idiot.

 

Please explain how and why back in 1999 a bunch of Montenigrans at the highest level of the FRY goverment (including the President!) and military were busy realizing purely (how pure?) Serbian goals as opposed to (at the expense of?) Montenigran goals (what goals?) - unless, of course, they were thought to be one and the same?

 

You do realize that both Serbians & Montenigrans are Serbs in much the same way that both Austrians and Germans are Germans, don't you?

[Josh]

 

More of a liability than West Berlin? American and British soldiers weren't there to 'defend', just to make sure that Russians don't have to wonder if they are at war with NATO or not, if they start shooting at them. Not letting them in would basically look bad, after the West didn't recognize their annexation by USSR for all of the Cold War. It would also be an invitation for Russia to make a 'Crimea' there, especially in Estonia and Latvia. If shit hits the fan anyway, the task of defending those poor buggers will probably be largely up to my country, but IMHO we still did a Good Thing™.

 

Forward presence, that's what is needed. And 'pissing off' Russia is good. They are always pissed off when the opportunity to meddle in other countries affairs is taken away from them.

 

Germany in the immediate post war era was a little bit different in terms of importance to the US and NATO than the Baltic Republics post cold war, don't you think?

 

And in the here and now, yes I'm for anything that pisses off Russia. But at the time the Baltics were accepted to NATO I question the utility to anyone except the Baltics.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Josh

[Lionel Mandrake]

Given that NATO had no qualms about bombing Serbs in Bosnia, Serbia, and Kossovo why would anyone think that they would have any qualms about bombing Serbs in Montenegro should something erupt there a la Macedonia?

 

How is not Montenegro's jointing NATO just about the only way MAYBE left for them to avoid Kossovo/Macedonia II given the demographic realties that they face?

[Josh]

Realistically NATO barely had the unity and capability for 1999 and definitely would be incapable of anything substantial now, from a political point of view. And 1999 was, IMO, not something it should have been involved in.

As far as I can tell Montenegro joining NATO is just Europe and the US poking Putin in the eye because he's generally being a jerk in Europe. It doesn't really cost anything and it annoys him, or at least he makes a lot of noise about it. I'd say it was an unnecessary move that will make Russians more paranoid and support Putin more except that 90% of Russians support Putin and are paranoid, so I don't see the downside at this point in time.

[Lionel Mandrake]

I certainly do see a downside to NATO ensuring runty Montenegro (a rump of a rump state)'s territorial integrity against any possible Albanian insurgency there. Basically, NATO just promised to became Slobo II should it ever come to that. Life is full of irony, no?

 

They are cunning crooks in Titograd if nothing else...

 

What has Russia lost?

 

Nothing.

 

What has it gained?

 

A place to poke at NATO that it didn't have before, should it ever need a new one, by stoking pan-Serbism.

 

NATO better watch Greece & Bulgaria instead.