Meanwhile In Balkans...

[Perun]

4 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Did Serbs and Croats have any deep, ancient issues from way back when? I'm asking because of what the Ustasha did in WW2 made the SS look downright tame. 

Or was the Ustasha just the worst element of the Croat society put I to power by external enemies? 

Stories of ancient Serbo-Croatian conflict is tankfully only a myth. Before, during and after the unfortunate war intermationaly solidarity existed.

Ustasha regime was Italian sponsored and Germany backed miniroty. They newer had large support among people. In short they were just a quislings which used oportunity and grabed the power

 

Edited March 29, 2024 by Perun

[Ssnake]

Finland took German military support in WW2 because nobody else would support them against the Soviets. Germany supported Finland militarily because it hurt the Soviets and created a diversion during Barbarossa.

And that's about it.

Sure, many Nazis were enamored by blond hair in general, but Britain is a good example of people with a non-trivial fraction of flaxen locks where the sympathies were decidedly unidirectional.

[bojan]

6 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Did Serbs and Croats have any deep, ancient issues from way back when?

It dates back to Austria "military frontier" and a fact that those living the area of military frontier (mostly Serbs) had more rights than "domestic" population (mostly Croats) who were at that moment still serfs.

Quote

Or was the Ustasha just the worst element of the Croat society put I to power by external enemies? 

In the good part of Croatia they were mostly marginal element, but in some parts their ideology was pretty popular. W/O German/Italian occupation they probably had no real chance to rise to power, their attempts in 1930s failed hard, but slightly more moderate, through still pretty much extremist option was pretty popular and in official Yugoslav Government (Cvetkovic-Macek government).

Edited March 30, 2024 by bojan

[Sardaukar]

4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Finland took German military support in WW2 because nobody else would support them against the Soviets. Germany supported Finland militarily because it hurt the Soviets and created a diversion during Barbarossa.

And that's about it.

Sure, many Nazis were enamored by blond hair in general, but Britain is a good example of people with a non-trivial fraction of flaxen locks where the sympathies were decidedly unidirectional.

This is obviously quite off-topic, but some background. 

Thing is Finland got support from West (France/UK etc., even from Italy) during Winter War, from Germany not, because of Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. 

Stalin wanted to "Finish Finland" in 1940, then Germany had occupied Denmark and Norway, so no realistic support from West (especially since Sweden had refused Brit/France troops and for good reason, they were after Kiruna iron ore mines). Fortunately for Finland Germany had gotten interested about East and Soviet Union, thus we started to get military sales from them.

One thing also is, from 1941 Finland was heavily depending on grain imports from Germany. Which is understandable, since during Continuation War 1944-45 up to 16.5% of population was in uniform and agriculture suffered accordingly. 

There was also issue of lost territories in Winter War and Germany was only option to possibly recover those. Alas, we know from history what happened. 

As trivia, Finland was only country where Jewish population fought on Axis side in WW II in FDF. Finland had told Himmler that we don't have "Jewish problem." Germans were bit amused to encounter field synagogue at front too. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by Sardaukar

[Ssnake]

Not sure how it would have ended for Finland if the Nazis had won over the Soviets, but that'd be even more off-topic and completely speculative.

[Stuart Galbraith]

3 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

This is obviously quite off-topic, but some background. 

Thing is Finland got support from West (France/UK etc., even from Italy) during Winter War, from Germany not, because of Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. 

Stalin wanted to "Finish Finland" in 1940, then Germany had occupied Denmark and Norway, so no realistic support from West (especially since Sweden had refused Brit/France troops and for good reason, they were after Kiruna iron ore mines). Fortunately for Finland Germany had gotten interested about East and Soviet Union, thus we started to get military sales from them.

One thing also is, from 1941 Finland was heavily depending on grain imports from Germany. Which is understandable, since during Continuation War 1944-45 up to 16.5% of population was in uniform and agriculture suffered accordingly. 

There was also issue of lost territories in Winter War and Germany was only option to possibly recover those. Alas, we know from history what happened. 

As trivia, Finland was only country where Jewish population fought on Axis side in WW II in FDF. Finland had told Himmler that we don't have "Jewish problem." Germans were bit amused to encounter field synagogue at front too. 

I was interested to learn that there was semi official British troop volunteers that arrived in Finland in 1940. Guy on Combat Dealers was making a bid on what was claimed to be their uniform. Not very many I grant you.

[Perun]

8 hours ago, bojan said:

1. It dates back to Austria "military frontier" and a fact that those living the area of military frontier (mostly Serbs) had more rights than "domestic" population (mostly Croats) who were at that moment still serfs.

2. In the good part of Croatia they were mostly marginal element, but in some parts their ideology was pretty popular. W/O German/Italian occupation they probably had no real chance to rise to power, their attempts in 1930s failed hard, but slightly more moderate, through still pretty much extremist option was pretty popular and in official Yugoslav Government (Cvetkovic-Macek government).

1. newer heard of that. Do you have source for that.

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Yugoslavian_parliamentary_election

 

 

[Sardaukar]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I was interested to learn that there was semi official British troop volunteers that arrived in Finland in 1940. Guy on Combat Dealers was making a bid on what was claimed to be their uniform. Not very many I grant you.

Dracula and Saruman was on our side... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Lee

When the Second World War broke out in 1939, Lee had enrolled in a military academy and volunteered to fight for the Finnish Army against the Soviet Union during the Winter War.[30] He and other British volunteers were kept away from the actual fighting, but they were issued with winter gear and were posted on guard duty a safe distance from the border. After two weeks in Finland, they returned home.[31][32] In a later interview, Lee stated that he knew how to shoot but not how to ski and that he probably would not be alive if he had been allowed to go to the front line.[31][33][34]

Edited March 30, 2024 by Sardaukar

[Stuart Galbraith]

Christ, he got everywhere didnt he? He was in Yugoslavia later in the war.

[Ssnake]

...and in the Libyan desert, and probably more. To quote him,

"Can you keep a secret?

Yes?

Yeah, me too."

[Rick]

10 hours ago, Ssnake said:

...and in the Libyan desert, and probably more. To quote him,

"Can you keep a secret?

Yes?

Yeah, me too."

Thus began the "Me too" movement 💪

[Sardaukar]

On 3/30/2024 at 2:32 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Christ, he got everywhere didnt he? He was in Yugoslavia later in the war.

Sweden sent quite a few of volunteers that actually saw combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Volunteer_Corps

The Swedish Volunteer Corps (Swedish: Svenska frivilligkåren) during the Winter War numbered 9,640 officers and men. Sweden was officially non-belligerent during the war, so the Corps was used by Finland. The Swedish volunteers were in the front lines in the northern Salla area starting from February 28, 1940. Their losses included 33 dead, 10 missing, 50 wounded, and 130 disabled by frostbite.[1] There were also 25 aircraft that served in the Swedish Voluntary Air Force, F19. Swedish volunteers also defended Turku in an anti-aircraft battery.

By the end of the war, the Volunteer Corps was composed of 8,260 Swedes, plus 725 Norwegians, and 600 Danes.[1] They demonstrated a strong Nordic unity that was symbolized in their "four brother hands" insignia which represented Finland, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark.

 

 

[Sardaukar]

But, back to Balkans, I had "course-mate" in our Reserve Officer School back in 1992, different company (I was Signals company, he was in Recon/Ranger company (Finnish word "sissi" is sometimes difficult to translate, since it means someone doing stuff behind enemy lines). Went to bar with him quite a few times during course.

Our paths did cross quite a few times afterwards too. Not in Croatia/Bosnia though. 

He did write a book about his experiences in Yugoslav Civil War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Casagrande

Casagrande claimed that he volunteered for the Bosnian Croat Defence Forces HVO in 1993 after his service in the Finnish Army. He wrote under the pen name Luca Moconesi a controversial book Mostarin tien liftarit / Hitchhikers on the Road to Mostar (WSOY 1997)[2] about his alleged experiences in the Bosnian Civil War, and based on descriptions of war crimes committed by the main character in the autobiographical book, he came under suspicion as a possible war criminal.[3] The war crimes listed in the book include the murder of a civilian woman in her home, and plotting to destroy a dam to flood a village with civilian inhabitants. After coming under suspicion he claimed that the book was in fact a work of fiction.

Later Casagrande has expressed views condemning war crimes from a military perspective: "Those troops know that they are doing wrong. This is the very opposite of constructive collectivity and group spirit. Anybody can understand that it is by no measures militarily efficient to go kicking the doors of old people's home." Casagrande has been lecturing in the National Defence University of Finland since 2006 on courses of strategy and leadership.[4]

 

[ink]

21 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

But, back to Balkans, I had "course-mate" in our Reserve Officer School back in 1992, different company (I was Signals company, he was in Recon/Ranger company (Finnish word "sissi" is sometimes difficult to translate, since it means someone doing stuff behind enemy lines). Went to bar with him quite a few times during course.

Our paths did cross quite a few times afterwards too. Not in Croatia/Bosnia though. 

He did write a book about his experiences in Yugoslav Civil War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Casagrande

Casagrande claimed that he volunteered for the Bosnian Croat Defence Forces HVO in 1993 after his service in the Finnish Army. He wrote under the pen name Luca Moconesi a controversial book Mostarin tien liftarit / Hitchhikers on the Road to Mostar (WSOY 1997)[2] about his alleged experiences in the Bosnian Civil War, and based on descriptions of war crimes committed by the main character in the autobiographical book, he came under suspicion as a possible war criminal.[3] The war crimes listed in the book include the murder of a civilian woman in her home, and plotting to destroy a dam to flood a village with civilian inhabitants. After coming under suspicion he claimed that the book was in fact a work of fiction.

 

It would be harder to believe that he was in the HVO and didn't at least see some pretty nasty shit going down.

21 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Later Casagrande has expressed views condemning war crimes from a military perspective: "Those troops know that they are doing wrong. This is the very opposite of constructive collectivity and group spirit. Anybody can understand that it is by no measures militarily efficient to go kicking the doors of old people's home." Casagrande has been lecturing in the National Defence University of Finland since 2006 on courses of strategy and leadership.[4]

He's right, of course. Uncivilised behaviour isn't just bad for the victims, it's also bad for the perpetrators (and their post-war society).

[Perun]

Montenegrin instructors will train the Ukrainian military

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/montenegrin-instructors-will-train-the-ukrainian-military/

[Perun]

 

[ink]

11 minutes ago, Perun said:

 

More bullshit just so they can all go on stealing from the narod, of you ask me.

[Perun]

1 minute ago, ink said:

More bullshit just so they can all go on stealing from the narod, of you ask me.

I agree mate

[glenn239]

1 hour ago, ink said:

More bullshit just so they can all go on stealing from the narod, of you ask me.

That's totally what I was thinking too.  But, for all the kids following along from home, maybe could you explain what's going on?

[ink]

38 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

That's totally what I was thinking too.  But, for all the kids following along from home, maybe could you explain what's going on?

Long story-short: a UN GA resolution has been put forward that would declare the killings in Srebrenica back in 1995 to be a genocide. Bosnian Muslim politicians love it because it distracts from the disastrous state of their half of the country, Bosnian Serb politicians too, for the same reasons. German politicians (who I think proposed it - I haven't followed this all that closely) love it because it makes them feel superior and like the Germans aren't the only ones who have 'done genocide'. All in all, it's a storm in a teacup over something that happened 30 years ago by politicians who can't or won't do anything about tomorrow or next year. Also, it is likely to have some weird implications down the road but probably mostly symbolic ones. After all, the GA is not a court, able to dispassionately deliver a verdict on certain events in a balanced manner. So the vote itself will be political and/or politicised.

[ink]

I'll just add that quality of life in Bosnia is still, by some metrics, thought to be below 1980s levels and no politician can say, "ah, yes, sorry, that's because we f***ed you in the a** with nationalism, sorry." Neither can they actually do anything about it in real terms, mostly because of the way the country was set up at Dayton*. But also because they're incompetent and/or corrupt. So, instead, they'd rather blame the "other side" for stuff and look like pocket strong men in the crappy local media. It is, after all, easy to shout "Hey, look, scary Muslims/Serbs/Croats!" and put your hand in the guy's pocket while he's distracted.

 

 

 

* There are, of course, plenty of other factors.

[sunday]

45 minutes ago, ink said:

I'll just add that quality of life in Bosnia is still, by some metrics, thought to be below 1980s levels and no politician can say, "ah, yes, sorry, that's because we f***ed you in the a** with nationalism, sorry." Neither can they actually do anything about it in real terms, mostly because of the way the country was set up at Dayton*. But also because they're incompetent and/or corrupt. So, instead, they'd rather blame the "other side" for stuff and look like pocket strong men in the crappy local media. It is, after all, easy to shout "Hey, look, scary Muslims/Serbs/Croats!" and put your hand in the guy's pocket while he's distracted.

 

 

 

* There are, of course, plenty of other factors.

Sounds like the fate of a hypothetical, future, independent Catalonia.

[ink]

29 minutes ago, sunday said:

Sounds like the fate of a hypothetical, future, independent Catalonia.

I couldn't possibly comment... Except to say this kind of behaviour by politicians is not unique to the Balkans by any means. It's just more crude and obvious here. 

[sunday]

1 hour ago, ink said:

I couldn't possibly comment... Except to say this kind of behaviour by politicians is not unique to the Balkans by any means. It's just more crude and obvious here. 

Back in the 1990s a businessman that had been working in Southern Italy came back to work in Catalonia and expressed his astonishment at the level of embezzlement he was seeing here.

[Perun]