Because, America

[Leo Niehorster]

If this keeps up, they will be taking down statues of and digging of the bodies of smokers, overweight people, as well as any and all who disagree with or don't fit you present credo?

What next? Unearthing and desecrating Confederate soldiers' graves? Arlington?

[Roman Alymov]

 

And about CNN "experts"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/politics/pussy-riot-nadya-tolokonnikova-putin-trump-russia/index.html?CNNPolitics=Tw

 

 

 

I think she is coming at things from the wrong end.

 

Actually my point was not about what she is saying, but about the very fact that young female whose top achievement was inserting dead and frozen supermarket chicken inside herself, speaking as expert (!) on international affairs (!) on what was world’s #1 news channel. Yes they got history of inviting marginals to speak about Russian affairs – but at least it was understandable as they were only “anti-Putinists” they were able to get (inviting reasonable “anti-Putinists” like Strelkov was obviously not in line with their narrative). But now they are asking for her opinion on US affairs….

Edited August 22, 2017 by Roman Alymov

[Paul G.]

If this keeps up, they will be taking down statues of and digging of the bodies of smokers, overweight people, as well as any and all who disagree with or don't fit you present credo?

What next? Unearthing and desecrating Confederate soldiers' graves? Arlington?

You can memorialize sacrifice without commemorating the cause.

[Paul G.]

 

 

And about CNN "experts"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/politics/pussy-riot-nadya-tolokonnikova-putin-trump-russia/index.html?CNNPolitics=Tw

 

I think she is coming at things from the wrong end. Trump isnt the cause of authoritarianism. If anything, I think the reason why he rose in the US is a desperate attempt to try and stymie the kind of authoritarian crap that we have seen all though this confederate statue debacle. The irony is (and you can agree or disagree with all he said on whether both protesting sides were equally culpable of violence) he is right about the removal of the statues removing the nation's history. You dont have to admire what Stonewall Jackson or Lee fought for to respect the bravery of the men who fought for them, or regard this attempt to airbrush history as deeply troubling to say the least. Trump was right on that.

 

As far as Democracy being eroded, Nadezda is entirely right, as she is about a good many things. And its frightening. Im reminded by that scene in 'I Claudius' where Claudius tells Britannicus he has been acting the way he has as a ruse to bring back the Republic. 'But nobody believes in that anymore!' Britannicus says. Yes, thats the world I think we are living in now.

The only history that is being erased by removing monuments commemorating the Confederacy is the US history of racial apartide from 1890-1965. Its not a coincidence that the majority of the monuments were erected during the height of lynchings of African Americans (2,000 between 1880-1930) in the South.

 

Museums and battlefield parks are good places to memorialize and teach the history of the Confederacy. You can preserve Auschwitz for history without erecting a monument commemorating it in the Marienplatz.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Paul G.

[shep854]

Remember though, that recent polls indicate most Americans oppose monument removal

[Ssnake]

From Confederacy to a Rudolf Höß monument in four lines...

[Paul G.]

From Confederacy to a Rudolf Höß monument in four lines...

Ok dont care for that analogy? How about those monuments to General Howe and King George in Boston?

[Paul G.]

Remember though, that recent polls indicate most Americans oppose monument removal

Yes and Trump was elected President.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

And about CNN "experts"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/politics/pussy-riot-nadya-tolokonnikova-putin-trump-russia/index.html?CNNPolitics=Tw

 

 

 

I think she is coming at things from the wrong end.

 

Actually my point was not about what she is saying, but about the very fact that young female whose top achievement was inserting dead and frozen supermarket chicken inside herself, speaking as expert (!) on international affairs (!) on what was world’s #1 news channel. Yes they got history of inviting marginals to speak about Russian affairs – but at least it was understandable as they were only “anti-Putinists” they were able to get (inviting reasonable “anti-Putinists” like Strelkov was obviously not in line with their narrative). But now they are asking for her opinion on US affairs….

 

 

Well she might be crazy or she might just be a gifted performance artist, but neither strikes me as being a bar on having political insight. Hunter S Thompson quite clearly was a sexual deviant (by his own confession) and obsessed by hard core drugs and Vincent Black Shadows, but for the most part was an astute political commentator with an appealing deprecatory sense of humor. Which for the most part Pussy Riot seems to have too.

 

Anyway, chicken stuffer or not, that strikes me as mild fare compared to where the politlcal debate has been going in Russia, ie, leaving journalists and politicians dead on the streets.

 

She is entitled to have a view on America, just as she is entitled to have a view on Russia. The point is, she doesn't get arrested for displaying her views on America, thats the difference.

[Roman Alymov]

 

 

 

 

 

Well she might be crazy or she might just be a gifted performance artist, but neither strikes me as being a bar on having political insight. Hunter S Thompson quite clearly was a sexual deviant (by his own confession) and obsessed by hard core drugs and Vincent Black Shadows, but for the most part was an astute political commentator with an appealing deprecatory sense of humor. Which for the most part Pussy Riot seems to have too.

 

Anyway, chicken stuffer or not, that strikes me as mild fare compared to where the politlcal debate has been going in Russia, ie, leaving journalists and politicians dead on the streets.

 

She is entitled to have a view on America, just as she is entitled to have a view on Russia. The point is, she doesn't get arrested for displaying her views on America, thats the difference.

 

She is definitely not stupid (graduated school with honor award, entered Russia’s top university) but IMHO it is way not enough to be speaker on what was once Worls#1 news media.

“leaving journalists and politicians dead on the streets” – I am afraid Russia is not the only place were journalists and politicians are killed (for example Ukraine got history of journalists killed, including one killed by President order – but nobody care and now this ex-President is Ukraine representative in Minsk and welcomed by world leaders). In US acting President was once killed, nobody knows by whom – so what? Every chick from USA is now expert? Yes they might use her as TV host just because she is more or less good looking young girl (as Anna Chapmen is on Rus TV), but bringing her opinion (one she is equally entitled to have then any other person) as expertise is strange. Personally I would prefer hearing somebody from small US city – to know how regular USians see all this mess.

Re “she doesn't get arrested for displaying her views on America” - let’s wait for her performing “action” somewhere in US church and see outcome of it. If USians are ok with that – it is up to them.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

And about CNN "experts"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/politics/pussy-riot-nadya-tolokonnikova-putin-trump-russia/index.html?CNNPolitics=Tw

 

I think she is coming at things from the wrong end. Trump isnt the cause of authoritarianism. If anything, I think the reason why he rose in the US is a desperate attempt to try and stymie the kind of authoritarian crap that we have seen all though this confederate statue debacle. The irony is (and you can agree or disagree with all he said on whether both protesting sides were equally culpable of violence) he is right about the removal of the statues removing the nation's history. You dont have to admire what Stonewall Jackson or Lee fought for to respect the bravery of the men who fought for them, or regard this attempt to airbrush history as deeply troubling to say the least. Trump was right on that.

 

As far as Democracy being eroded, Nadezda is entirely right, as she is about a good many things. And its frightening. Im reminded by that scene in 'I Claudius' where Claudius tells Britannicus he has been acting the way he has as a ruse to bring back the Republic. 'But nobody believes in that anymore!' Britannicus says. Yes, thats the world I think we are living in now.

The only history that is being erased by removing monuments commemorating the Confederacy is the US history of racial apartide from 1890-1965. Its not a coincidence that the majority of the monuments were erected during the height of lynchings of African Americans (2,000 between 1880-1930) in the South.

 

Museums and battlefield parks are good places to memorialize and teach the history of the Confederacy. You can preserve Auschwitz for history without erecting a monument commemorating it in the Marienplatz.

 

 

Yes, the problem is the assertion that you retroactively remove the racial apartheid by removing the monuments. You dont. All you do is remove the historical context the debate is held in. If you burned all the historical records of the American Civil War, destroyed all the books, bulldozed the graves, would you thereby end racism? No. Then to what ends does destroying or removing statues serve? The past is done, all the statues do is remind you of what the past was and how it as regarded. It reminds you of what mindsets were and where the debate has moved. And in an era when we live in a fast rewritten internet era, treating external monuments in the same cavalier manner to that which we delete web pages or rewrite them, to me at least, is deeply unnerving.

 

There is a similar debate in Bristol recently, where local activists demanded that Colston hall, a theatre, was renamed. Not though any fault of the theatre which is well regarded, but that it was named after Edward Colston a Bristol slave trader. Now in that case I can perhaps see the point, except as a venue it hosted diverse names as Ella Fitzgerald and Bob Dylan, and clearly has created a name for itself without anyone thinking of its namesake at all. Kind of like nobody thinks of Ike Turner when they see Tina Turner if you see my point.

 

Similarly there is a college in Oxford that had a statue of Cecil Rhodes on the front. Again, I see why people might find that contentious. But how is removing a statue going to change what happened? All you do is remove the symbols that can provoke a debate about what happened and increase awareness of it. Its like 1984, you alter history, you remove the debate, just like removing the words, you remove the thought. Its limiting, and in my view dangerous thinking. If someone wants to slap a blue plaque on a statue base (as the artist Banksy apparently did in Bristol) saying the man was a slave trader and giving historical context, thats a good thing. I entirely agree with that. Removing a statue and pretending they did not exist or do what they did, both good and bad, to my mind is neo Stalinist in concept. I dont like seeing Soviet war memorials removed, even if, in the case of Eastern Europe, I entirely get that they view them as a badge of ownership.

 

 

As for emancipation park, If they REALLY wanted to make an intelligent move on behalf of racial bigotry, why not rename the park, leave the Lee statue where it is and put a statue up to Martin Luther King? Then you have a commentary on race relations from the 1860 to the 1960's. But they didnt do that, because one side had to display ascendancy over another. They already moral ascendancy, why the need to rub peoples face in it? That isn't how you change peoples minds forcing people to be free. Rousseau was wrong.

 

 

Its worth relating at this point, I always play the confederates in wargames. Not because of what they fought for, but because they were damn good at fighting and winning against overwhelming odds. And that would seem to be a lesson that those who would erase their memory seem to have forgotten on multiple levels.

 

 

 

Look just my view. As Tanknets token leftie, I have to recognise when the left has gone too bloody far, and quite clearly here they have. Sometimes you go so far left, you become far right. How did the left ever forget that?

Edited August 22, 2017 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well she might be crazy or she might just be a gifted performance artist, but neither strikes me as being a bar on having political insight. Hunter S Thompson quite clearly was a sexual deviant (by his own confession) and obsessed by hard core drugs and Vincent Black Shadows, but for the most part was an astute political commentator with an appealing deprecatory sense of humor. Which for the most part Pussy Riot seems to have too.

 

Anyway, chicken stuffer or not, that strikes me as mild fare compared to where the politlcal debate has been going in Russia, ie, leaving journalists and politicians dead on the streets.

 

She is entitled to have a view on America, just as she is entitled to have a view on Russia. The point is, she doesn't get arrested for displaying her views on America, thats the difference.

 

She is definitely not stupid (graduated school with honor award, entered Russia’s top university) but IMHO it is way not enough to be speaker on what was once Worls#1 news media.

“leaving journalists and politicians dead on the streets” – I am afraid Russia is not the only place were journalists and politicians are killed (for example Ukraine got history of journalists killed, including one killed by President order – but nobody care and now this ex-President is Ukraine representative in Minsk and welcomed by world leaders). In US acting President was once killed, nobody knows by whom – so what? Every chick from USA is now expert? Yes they might use her as TV host just because she is more or less good looking young girl (as Anna Chapmen is on Rus TV), but bringing her opinion (one she is equally entitled to have then any other person) as expertise is strange. Personally I would prefer hearing somebody from small US city – to know how regular USians see all this mess.

Re “she doesn't get arrested for displaying her views on America” - let’s wait for her performing “action” somewhere in US church and see outcome of it. If USians are ok with that – it is up to them.

 

Comeon Roman, dont you watch the news? She could do that in the US and they would probably give her a scholorship for it.

[rmgill]

[Stuart Galbraith]

There was that television documentary that they did about a decade ago on the American civil war, and I remember what one Union General said about the Confederates, that they were some of the grandest fighting fellows he ever saw, even though he thought that the cause was about the worst for which any man ever thought. And thats the point. Leaving aside some of the reasons for which they fought (and I daresay you are right it goes a lot further than slavery) their bravery in combat deserves to be honoured, even if the cause does not.

 

More to the point, by pretending the Confederates did not exist, kind of removes the significance of all those whom fought against it, not least Lincoln. Four hundred years from now are people really going to take on board the signfiicance of Lincoln and what he did, without understanding the signfiicance of the Confederacy? Its a very dangerous thing this post facto editing of history. As this article says, where do you stop?

 

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/18/giving-trump-credit-when-hes-right/

[rmgill]

The way our schools are barely managing to educate kids, I'll be surprised if they even know who Lincoln was.

[Stuart Galbraith]

'Miss, didn't he make Kennedy's car?'

[Roman Alymov]

 

Re “she doesn't get arrested for displaying her views on America” - let’s wait for her performing “action” somewhere in US church and see outcome of it. If USians are ok with that – it is up to them.

 

 

 

Comeon Roman, dont you watch the news? She could do that in the US and they would probably give her a scholorship for it.

 

Not sure, but taking into account how crazy present day US is (or at least seems from Russia) I can’t rule it out. By the way re scholarship, there were calls across RusInternet users to collect money for scholarship of this young US reenactor with Conf flag as he was reported thrown out of his university. Strange world….

[Stuart Galbraith]

If he was a reenactor, thats reprehensible. We have US Civil war reenactors over here, and I dont note anyone complains about it. Its probably regarded as almost as distant and as politically charged as our own civil war reenactors, and we have plenty of those as well.

 

[Paul G.]

If he was a reenactor, thats reprehensible. We have US Civil war reenactors over here, and I dont note anyone complains about it. Its probably regarded as almost as distant and as politically charged as our own civil war reenactors, and we have plenty of those as well.

 

He was a reenactor, but thats mot why he was kicked oit of a Christian College. He picked the wrong time to protest.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

that sum bitch should've known that there's times when it is okay to exercise a right to speech and times when there ain't no such right!

correct?

 

this world has gone mad and I only hope that when the Left comes for the rest of us that we will have enough arms and ammunition to make them pay bitterly for wiping us out

[Paul G.]

that sum bitch should've known that there's times when it is okay to exercise a right to speech and times when there ain't no such right!

correct?

 

this world has gone mad and I only hope that when the Left comes for the rest of us that we will have enough arms and ammunition to make them pay bitterly for wiping us out

That gentlemen should have realized that the Christian College he was attending is a business that also has 1st Amendment rights to exercise a code of conduct as long as it doesnt violate State and Federal Laws. The Constitutional right of freedom of speech only applies to the Government.

 

Funny how rights work. They apply even when you dont like the outcome.

 

*personally i don't like the outcome. The kid exercised poor judgement, but shouldnt have been removed from the college for it. But, again, the college has that right.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Paul G.

[Tim the Tank Nut]

sure,

the rights of the mob rule

 

it's always for the "Greater Good". Reminds me of the cure for Downs Syndrome that Iceland came up with...

[Roman Alymov]

 

this world has gone mad and I only hope that when the Left comes for the rest of us that we will have enough arms and ammunition to make them pay bitterly for wiping us out

As “born in USSR”, I am failing to see this rioting crowd as “Left”. What I see is “consumers” against “blue collar”. Yes “blue collar” may have lots of own imperfections, but they are the people who are making the world running. Is somebody from this this “left” crowd able to change spark plugs on his\her car?

I think this guy can

[Skywalkre]

sure,

the rights of the mob rule

 

it's always for the "Greater Good". Reminds me of the cure for Downs Syndrome that Iceland came up with...

The school isn't telling us why he was kicked out. Odds are they didn't like the negative publicity.

 

There's a slight possibility, however, it was done because the message and stance he was taking conflicts with what the school is about (and looking at the objectives and mission statement on their website this may actually be more than a slight possibility). If this is the case the school is doing just what they student did - standing up for what they believe to be right and they have the right to do that.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Skywalkre

[Paul G.]

Roman, yes you are touching on a truth. What we identify as political and racial discourse, is intertwined with class, as much as Americans like to see themselves as a classless society.