Because, America

[Mikel2]

 

 

 

All you evil white folks get your checkbooks out and pay, pay, pay.....

http://www.weaselzippers.us/225651-baltimore-professor-white-people-should-deposit-their-unearned-wealth-in-black-accounts/

I'm sorry. My brothers already paid.

 

Agreed. When I was living in the Carolinas (North!), I remember having this history class in which a liberal minded professor was giving a lecture on the civil right movement, post WW2, in which a student that could have been of any race, said something simmilar, like "rich white men have done nothing for black folks" or something like that. The best was the answer from the professor, "what about Antietam? Or Abraham Lincoln, John F Kennedy and LBJ?"

 

Her answer was "what is an Antietam? What does that do for black people?"

 

 

Education is the key to solving many of our Nation's problems.

 

 

Not to be confused with the money devouring educational-industrial complex.

[Paul G.]

 

 

 

 

All you evil white folks get your checkbooks out and pay, pay, pay.....

http://www.weaselzippers.us/225651-baltimore-professor-white-people-should-deposit-their-unearned-wealth-in-black-accounts/

I'm sorry. My brothers already paid.

 

Agreed. When I was living in the Carolinas (North!), I remember having this history class in which a liberal minded professor was giving a lecture on the civil right movement, post WW2, in which a student that could have been of any race, said something simmilar, like "rich white men have done nothing for black folks" or something like that. The best was the answer from the professor, "what about Antietam? Or Abraham Lincoln, John F Kennedy and LBJ?"

 

Her answer was "what is an Antietam? What does that do for black people?"

 

 

Education is the key to solving many of our Nation's problems.

 

 

Not to be confused with the money devouring educational-industrial complex.

 

 

Which is why my kids will be likley geting their university degree in Ireland.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-15/news/ct-met-irish-colleges-recruit-20120415_1_dorm-life-prospective-students-irish-students

[Mr King]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBJU9ndpH1Q

[Cinaruco]

[Cinaruco]

 

 

 

All you evil white folks get your checkbooks out and pay, pay, pay.....

http://www.weaselzippers.us/225651-baltimore-professor-white-people-should-deposit-their-unearned-wealth-in-black-accounts/

I'm sorry. My brothers already paid.

 

Agreed. When I was living in the Carolinas (North!), I remember having this history class in which a liberal minded professor was giving a lecture on the civil right movement, post WW2, in which a student that could have been of any race, said something simmilar, like "rich white men have done nothing for black folks" or something like that. The best was the answer from the professor, "what about Antietam? Or Abraham Lincoln, John F Kennedy and LBJ?"

 

Her answer was "what is an Antietam? What does that do for black people?"

 

 

Education is the key to solving many of our Nation's problems.

 

It shocked me more than she did not know who Lyndon Johnson was. In my head I am "You know the president that signed all these laws this Reverend you are cannonizing needed to get you all to vote".

 

In Venezuela where I was born, and partly raised, there is no N word. By which I mean negro is just a word with homonyms and not a racial stignma not to be touched. One of my childhood friends was called el Negro Ardilla, and in the US I was not aware of the sensitivities of certain groups, and I said to one student something like "gracias negrura". Negrura is a term of endearment that, though rarely used, its only used in that context. Needless to say there was drama involved, as that girl who had a friend called Latoya and that is in literal form, went on to all her black friends about this new racist in the Academy.

 

I was jumped by a few people, of all the same color, demanding and insulting me in ways I did not understand. I a racist, hard thing for a Venezuelan to be. After a while, not backing down but not scalating either, I spoke. "If I was a racist I would have to hate my grand uncle Luis and my tia Maria, my uncle Gustavo, my tia Odette and my cousin Cristina, what the fuck are youall talking about"

 

It ended because of the arrival of one of the cadet officers, but I was really shocked at the accusation said to me. Because I said one word.

 

When Chavez began to use the race card, he demanded that all Venezuelans who had black skin to be known as Afro-Descendants. I remember another man, a well respected and admired doctor known as el Negro Gomez, was supposed to give a lecture with my father about the same day. His first words were, "Yo soy el negro Gomez, si quieren ver al afrodescendiente metanselo por el culo", which roughly translates into "I am the negro Gomez, if you want the afro-descendant go and shove it".

 

African Americans have a inherent problem that makes them inferior, I never understood that, but the amount of victimhood just disgusts me. You are in the first world, if you are fucked, then its because you failed, not the system. Its not like, for example, the US has a Ghetto policy in which blacks are interned and forced to live in a mandated way. Considering the origin of the actual Ghettos, you are the ignorant fool that doesn't understand why your life sucks.

 

I do believe genetics play a role in this, makes certain races have certain traits, but then there is cultural idiocy.

[Panzermann]

Some people make a habit out of being the victim and all others are out to suppress them or something.

 

Discrimimimi.

[Mikel2]

 

 

 

 

All you evil white folks get your checkbooks out and pay, pay, pay.....

http://www.weaselzippers.us/225651-baltimore-professor-white-people-should-deposit-their-unearned-wealth-in-black-accounts/

I'm sorry. My brothers already paid.

 

Agreed. When I was living in the Carolinas (North!), I remember having this history class in which a liberal minded professor was giving a lecture on the civil right movement, post WW2, in which a student that could have been of any race, said something simmilar, like "rich white men have done nothing for black folks" or something like that. The best was the answer from the professor, "what about Antietam? Or Abraham Lincoln, John F Kennedy and LBJ?"

 

Her answer was "what is an Antietam? What does that do for black people?"

 

 

Education is the key to solving many of our Nation's problems.

 

It shocked me more than she did not know who Lyndon Johnson was. In my head I am "You know the president that signed all these laws this Reverend you are cannonizing needed to get you all to vote".

 

 

Maybe she remembered how LBJ and his ilk prevented civil rights legislation from being passed in the 50s.

[Mikel2]

 

African Americans have a inherent problem that makes them inferior, I never understood that, but the amount of victimhood just disgusts me. You are in the first world, if you are fucked, then its because you failed, not the system. Its not like, for example, the US has a Ghetto policy in which blacks are interned and forced to live in a mandated way. Considering the origin of the actual Ghettos, you are the ignorant fool that doesn't understand why your life sucks.

 

I do believe genetics play a role in this, makes certain races have certain traits, but then there is cultural idiocy.

 

 

When poor immigrants from all over the world come to the US and thrive, perhaps the problem is not in the nation itself, but with the actions of those who fail to do well. But of course, it is much easier to blame others.

Asian immigrants are now a subclass of the white community. IIRC they surpass whites in per capita income and education. The man must be keeping them down.

 

Thomas Sowell has written many articles about how the black community was emerging from poverty and marginality before the welfare state was created. When you create a culture of dependence and mix it with resentment, it is a devastating recipe.

 

I don't believe it is genetics. It is a matter of culture. I don't buy that it is poverty either - My parents in post civil war Spain lived in a way you won't find in the worst American inner cities. Yet they were honest hard working people who worked very hard to give their children an education. And so were most of their neighbors.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Mikel2

[Cinaruco]

I don't believe it is genetics. It is a matter of culture. I don't buy that it is poverty either - My parents in post civil war Spain lived in a way you won't find in the worst American inner cities. Yet they were honest hard working people who worked very hard to give their children an education. And so were most of their neighbors.

 

[toysoldier]

[Paul G.]

 

 

African Americans have a inherent problem that makes them inferior, I never understood that, but the amount of victimhood just disgusts me. You are in the first world, if you are fucked, then its because you failed, not the system. Its not like, for example, the US has a Ghetto policy in which blacks are interned and forced to live in a mandated way. Considering the origin of the actual Ghettos, you are the ignorant fool that doesn't understand why your life sucks.

 

I do believe genetics play a role in this, makes certain races have certain traits, but then there is cultural idiocy.

 

 

When poor immigrants from all over the world come to the US and thrive, perhaps the problem is not in the nation itself, but with the actions of those who fail to do well. But of course, it is much easier to blame others.

Asian immigrants are now a subclass of the white community. IIRC they surpass whites in per capita income and education. The man must be keeping them down.

 

Thomas Sowell has written many articles about how the black community was emerging from poverty and marginality before the welfare state was created. When you create a culture of dependence and mix it with resentment, it is a devastating recipe.

 

I don't believe it is genetics. It is a matter of culture. I don't buy that it is poverty either - My parents in post civil war Spain lived in a way you won't find in the worst American inner cities. Yet they were honest hard working people who worked very hard to give their children an education. And so were most of their neighbors.

 

 

I think 20th century science has pretty much proven its not genetics linked to any race (though genetics does play a role in other things).

 

Its not poverty, I agree, but it is linked to poverty. As in you are more likley to not get a good education if you grow up in poverty...for various reasons.

 

The US system of tying property taxes to education budgets pretty much guarantees a income - education deficit. I live in a town with high property values and a low population. We have great schools. The next town over has a high population/low property values. They have terrible schools.

[Cinaruco]

Genetics has nothing to do with race... To answer the argument simply and without ambiguity, genetics is a branch of the science of Biology. I am a pragmatist (don't have a God, don't think he cares), and as such I believe with complete certainty on evolution, therefore also in biology. I believe that billions of years in the works are just there so that there are just more shades of skin than usual, or facial looks, or intelligence. Its not a mistake that a race is characteristically more industrious than other, nor is it that one is better at sports than the other, or better at war or arts, or science. There is no black Plato, nor Socrates, hardly any scientist of note. Come to think of it, even in military terms, I can think of Alexander, Ceasar, Hannibal, even king Ramses, the Kahn, Timur, Subutai and the Great Meji, never heard of their black equals.

 

As for me, I don't think biological diferences between races makes for inherent superiority, but it is part of equation, just as much as poverty, culture, geography and, IMHO, genetics. As I said earlier, as a Venezuelan I am mongrel blooded (sangre mestiza), and I am proud of it. I have a pure mestizo friend (his mother is Indi- I meant Native, and his father an immigrant), and I once asked him if he is prouder of Montezuma or Cortez... The answer is La Malinche. Which is a great point.

 

Mestizaje is a science and cultural event that took place in South and Central America, the US was lucky to have such a homogeneous initial population, that unlike the expeditions of Colon, Cortez, Pizarro brought with them a crucial element for colonization, the European woman. See La Malinche, she's the most badass woman in American history.

[X-Files]

Laquanda Newby

[Guest Jason L]

Genetics has nothing to do with race... To answer the argument simply and without ambiguity, genetics is a branch of the science of Biology. I am a pragmatist (don't have a God, don't think he cares), and as such I believe with complete certainty on evolution, therefore also in biology. I believe that billions of years in the works are just there so that there are just more shades of skin than usual, or facial looks, or intelligence. Its not a mistake that a race is characteristically more industrious than other, nor is it that one is better at sports than the other, or better at war or arts, or science. There is no black Plato, nor Socrates, hardly any scientist of note. Come to think of it, even in military terms, I can think of Alexander, Ceasar, Hannibal, even king Ramses, the Kahn, Timur, Subutai and the Great Meji, never heard of their black equals.

 

As for me, I don't think biological diferences between races makes for inherent superiority, but it is part of equation, just as much as poverty, culture, geography and, IMHO, genetics. As I said earlier, as a Venezuelan I am mongrel blooded (sangre mestiza), and I am proud of it. I have a pure mestizo friend (his mother is Indi- I meant Native, and his father an immigrant), and I once asked him if he is prouder of Montezuma or Cortez... The answer is La Malinche. Which is a great point.

 

Mestizaje is a science and cultural event that took place in South and Central America, the US was lucky to have such a homogeneous initial population, that unlike the expeditions of Colon, Cortez, Pizarro brought with them a crucial element for colonization, the European woman. See La Malinche, she's the most badass woman in American history.

 

It's got nothing to do with race and genetics. But, there is a mounting body of evidence that poverty has epigenetic consequences which may very well be contributing to a feedback effect in the poorer segments of society - leading to high addiction and mental illness rates among other things.

[Cinaruco]

It's got nothing to do with race and genetics. But, there is a mounting body of evidence that poverty has epigenetic consequences which may very well be contributing to a feedback effect in the poorer segments of society - leading to high addiction and mental illness rates among other things.

 

 

Right... See if the problem is poverty then Ecuador, Panama, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Venezuela and Brasil it would imply that, in the case of the latter, no whites live in the favela, or if he is he is an statistical anomaly. In 1950, when the wars in Europe, including the many civil wars, specially the Spanish and Greek ended with many refugees coming across the pond with nothing, some of them my family today, and they were welcomed in droves by mi General Gimenez. Areas that were another tropical part of the Andes became small cities. At the same time, there was another mass migration to Venezuela and it had nothing to do with wars in Europe, and the rest of the world.

 

Oil had made it so that sprawling cities became the norm in Venezuela, this migration came from the West, and it was not exactly white refugees, but common negros looking for a better life. The problem was when Chavez appeared and said, even though by any definition of the word he is mestizo, pardo if you want to be exact about it, "I am black and poor too! Vote for me!" it triggered a tribe mentality in that section of the populace that drove the country with largest oil reserves in the world without electricity (the cities, maybe loose power for half a day once a month), or running water, or diapers or...

 

I am not speaking out of bigotry, as I tried telling those black cadets, sorry African American Cadets, I am mestizo myself. My favorite uncle in the world is almost black, more pardo than he'd like to admit, and yet he was able to donate to his consumptive white direct nephew his kidney.

 

If it has nothing to do with genetics but rather poverty, then blacks have lived in poverty for how many millennium now? Then, how come even now in total cultural darkness, places like Turkey and Saudi Arabia are moving in the way of technological, industrial and commercial regional powers. Why does oil rich Lybia is in the shitter, or for example Equatorial Guinea, or Brazil of all places. Not only vast mineral wealth and a small commercial empire, but on their way of becoming a regional power. And blacks still live on favelas in bahareque made muid heaps they call ranchos. Even when the inquisition was turning Europe into backwater, it was still ahead of Africa in almost every way (no lions in Europa, sadly).

 

In my country the whites are the absolute minority, Arab and Asians too, and yet they are both cultures that have strive on first migrations. I cannot say the same for others. The only constant in an equation made of variables is race, or biology.

 

But we can agree to disagree, I see how easily these kinds of debates get turned into "you are racissssss" in just a few posts, and it honestly saddens me that race cannot be debated in scientific way, genetics, eugenics and... mentality (what could be considered culture). It always comes down to victimhood and not facts.

[Guest Jason L]

So your personal opinion trumps scientific research now? How typically Tank-Net

 

I don't think you understand how genetics, let alone epigenetics works based on that post of yours.

 

Fact is, growing up poor and around mentally fucked up people stands a good chance of fucking you up for life due to various mechanistic processes of how stress affects development. Mental illness is also somewhat hereditary. Then there is possibility of stress modifying genetic code, which you then pass on. That gives you three feedback or self reinforcing loops.

 

Does this mean that everyone that is poor is locked into a perpetuating cycle? Absolutely not, it just means that life (which is already hard enough as it is) is very much a huge uphill battle.

 

Why don't you read some science, start with this:

 

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christopher_Kuzawa/publication/52003865_Epigenetics_and_the_embodiment_of_race_developmental_origins_of_US_racial_disparities_in_cardiovascular_health/links/0912f507eb4867fc20000000.pdf

 

You can discuss race, genetics and poverty without being racist.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Jason L

[Cinaruco]

So your personal opinion trumps scientific research now? How typically Tank-Net

Sorry, I really missed the science in your post:

 

 

It's got nothing to do with race and genetics. But, there is a mounting body of evidence that poverty has epigenetic consequences which may very well be contributing to a feedback effect in the poorer segments of society - leading to high addiction and mental illness rates among other things.

 

 

You provide no hypothesis, no empirical evidence, no links to any data files, this is all. You saying that "race and genetics have nothing to do with it" its not a compelling scientific argument. You need to add... something to your posts. Your word does not equal science.

 

And if you think there is no science behind mestizaje, its because you live in the uber racially diverse Montreal, that has centuries of miscegenation in its history, and are giving your perspective from a first world, "I haven seen blacks and how they live in the third world." Montreal has no black problems, Caracas does, I speak out of personal experience and as a qualified MD, with mention in bio informatics. As for epigenetics, its the sub science that studies genetics, in how external factors affect biology, or cells if you want to nitpick, which as you say is something that has nothing to do with race.

 

The only difference between a favela or barrio from Mogadishu is that the favelas and barrios are in oil rich countries, which can subsidize anything in the long term.

 

And this is the actual title of what you want me to read: Epigenetics and the embodiment of race: Developmental origins of US racial disparities in cardiovascular health

 

I don´t think this covers gettho culture, or gang mentality, or... look, the first line in the article where I

 

The relative contribution of genetic and environmental influences to the US black-white disparity in cardiovascular disease (CVD) is hotly debated within the public health, anthropology, and medical communities. In this article, we review evidence for developmental and epigenetic pathways linking early life environments with CVD, and critically evaluate their possible role in the origins of these racial health disparities. African Americans not only suffer from a disproportionate burden of CVD relative to whites, but also have higher rates of the perinatal health disparities now known to be the antecedents of these conditions. There is extensive evidence for a social origin to prematurity and low birth weight

 

Case and point, you are sending me to an article that right of the bat says "there is no scientific consensus in this field, and the empirical evidence is debate," so in the most simplistic of terms, you need more science dude, more than two posts and only one article that in no way proves empirically your point. Not even close. I cannot confirm or verify the sources of the data, or where were they taken.

 

So typical of tank-net, to make an argument out of nowhere and with the assumption that your word is Gospel that I should read with devotion because... science thats why. There are exactly five people on tank-net whose word I take that seriously. One has a subforum named after him.

 

Also, there is hardly a universal consensus on the scientific community until the data is canonized, taught generation by generation, which is why today we don´t have a consensus in climate science, I would expect even less in something as critical as race. It is not very scientific to expect every scientist to agree on everything.

 

 

You can discuss race, genetics and poverty without being racist.

 

We can try, I'd like to. But I have never been able to do so, especially with the people that were born north of Rio Grande, my father was, and he was of the same mentality until Chavez appeared. Now he would be an outright racist, or republicano...

 

PS: And I should mention, I simply laugh when people compare Obama to any third world leader... He has to answer directly to 300 white guys and gals in the US Senate. He did not make a power grab that involved armed men, soldiers and blood on the streets.

 

Edit two times, one just to add: Chronic heart disease is not exactly what I was debating originally, not even close. I have no idea how you can think that article supports any of your assertions.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Andres Vera

[Guest Jason L]

 

Translation: someone posted something actually factual so I have to try every possible way to worm my way out of it.

 

Why don't you actually read the damn article past the introduction? It doesn't remotely say what you think it does. Papers almost always have these amazing things called conclusions:

 

The model presented here should not be understood as
replacing genetic race with an essentialized concept of epigenetic
race; instead, it shows how social environments,
defined along lines of constructed and socially imposed
racial identities, can drive developmental processes,
thereby becoming embodied as biological patterns that
influence health and disease (Krieger, 2005). Debates
about the causes of racial health disparities have traditionally
aligned with the poles in the classic model of disease
causation, which emphasizes the contrasting disease
impacts of inherited genes and the dynamic and culturally
shaped environment. The emerging epigenetic and developmental
model of chronic disease epidemiology illustrates
why this perspective is incomplete, and must be
broadened to account for the more durable role that environments
have on patterns of biology and health when
experienced early in the lifecycle.

 

 

That paper has over 200 citations dealing with all sorts of other disease issues and cites over 200 papers itself. Learn how to use a citation index and a reference list.

 

If you're going to be so bitchy, here is an article dealing specifically with epigentic markers for mental illness:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2964366/

 

And let me quote the conclusion in case you fail to read the article again:

 

The question remains whether epigenomics will result in markers for risk of mental illness. For example, will a genome-wide scan of DNA methylation establish a correlation between genomic regions of high methylation and risk for depression? Studies focusing on individual gene promoters have revealed biologically meaningful correlations between behaviours relevant for mental illnesses in animals and epigenetic modification in specific genes and tissues. Since gene silencing by repressor and DNA methylation mechanisms is often propagated across several adjacent genes, epigenomics, that is probing a large number of epigenetic loci using high-throughput techniques, may help to identify these regional modifications and shed light on the potential players implicated in the behaviour under study.

 

 

My assertion is very straightfoward: stressors can lead to genetic changes, providing a mechanism whereby issues embed into a segment of the population. Poverty is one fucking nasty stressor.

 

My word isn't gospel, I just have a vague idea of what I'm talking about; clearly you don't.

 

What does any of the stuff you've been posting have anything meaningful to stay about the genetics of population segments anyway?

Edited June 12, 2015 by Jason L

[Cinaruco]

Worm myself out? You are the one who says "science" in a three line post, and call it gospel. But fine.

 

 

The model presented here should not be understood as
replacing genetic race with an essentialized concept of epigenetic
race; instead, it shows how social environments,
defined along lines of constructed and socially imposed
racial identities, can drive developmental processes,
thereby becoming embodied as biological patterns that
influence health and disease (Krieger, 2005). Debates
about the causes of racial health disparities have traditionally
aligned with the poles in the classic model of disease
causation, which emphasizes the contrasting disease
impacts of inherited genes and the dynamic and culturally
shaped environment. The emerging epigenetic and developmental
model of chronic disease epidemiology illustrates
why this perspective is incomplete, and must be
broadened to account for the more durable role that environments
have on patterns of biology and health when
experienced early in the lifecycle.

 

How, when, where does this says "This article is provides empirical evidence and is fact"

 

It is a research paper, in the scientific method its part of the first procedure, which is the hypothesis and theory, based in investigation, which is what that article is, investigation and theory, not settled science. If you fail to grasp the concept of empirical evidence, then wow, just wow.

 

You should know

-I come across these kinds of documents for work research. Though my job is centers on oncology and genetic predisposition to disease, cancer in this case obviously.

-I know how an index works.

-200 references to 200 datapoints that do not construe any empirical research, it is data use to support the hypothesis, is not "science" certainly not "settled science". Just part of the scientific method, not the whole thing. And you need to have the whole thing to have "science" on your side.

-You haven't answered, how long have afrodescendants suffered from how many centuries of being kept down by the man? Any history on this? Anything other than a research paper on chronic heart disease.

 

-It says blacks that are poor are less healthy than richer folk. What a first world conclussion is drawn there.

 

-You also assume that the whole scientific community of the world agrees with you. I say the sky is blue, and I bet you there is some dude out there with a PHD that says its not. For every article you conjure that supposedly proves your point, I can just as easily pick one randomly from the internet, or cite other references that have been done, to cancel yours.

-The conclusion you use to justify the article, that you use to justify your argument, says that in truth, this article debates a certain point, which cardiovascular disease and its relation to epigenetics, it does not prove your point, because it barely proves the articles own premise. Which in credit to the scientist shows some understanding of the debate.Debates
about the causes of racial health disparities have traditionally
aligned with the poles in the classic model of disease
causation

 

If this was a chess game, you just fool-mated yourself.

 

-You should understand what the scientific method is for example, and this man is in the part about hypothesis, without any practical experimentation, which is what this documents lacks.

-I've pointed out systemic flaws, specific cases of migrations in similar circumstances, as an example citing the differences between the afro-descendants and European immigrants in the same time-frame and economic conditions.

 

And to emphasize:

 

And if you think there is no science behind mestizaje, its because you live in the uber racially diverse Montreal, that has centuries of miscegenation in its history, and are giving your perspective from a first world, "I haven seen blacks and how they live in the third world." Montreal has no black problems, Caracas does, I speak out of personal experience and as a qualified MD, with mention in bio informatics. As for epigenetics, its the sub science that studies genetics, in how external factors affect biology, or cells if you want to nitpick, which as you say is something that has nothing to do with race.

 

-I have personal experience in this subject first hand, coming from a racially diverse family from country of mestizos. I have first hand experience in these matters, at a level I don't think you understand. Canadians are such welcoming people. You still have not seen the ugly side of migration.

-Google homework. Favela, Barrio, especially look at Petare and Rocinha, one in Venezuela and another in Brazil. Petare, which has a population of some three million, has a murder rate of 10 thousand a year, that is more than Mexico City, that has close to 30 million people), I Rocia there is an entire battalion of Brazilian special forces assigned to maintain the minimal order and squalor conditions are third world, something you have no idea about. And not to mention the almost 3000 people that die monthly due to the horrible sanitation, poor medical services and lawlessness, something that is tribal in blacks.

 

Finally, I you say my arguments have no context, and that I am nitpicking, yet you are the one trying to avoid the fact that you just ran into a wall of your own making. Chronic hear disease in any race is not a biological factor, as hearts are the same in the homo sapient. The question is, is there a difference in how people think and act because of their race? Yes, in my opinion. I have seen enough to know that.

 

Also, there is hardly a universal consensus on the scientific community until the data is canonized, taught generation by generation, which is why today we don´t have a consensus in climate science, I would expect even less in something as critical as race. It is not very scientific to expect every scientist to agree on everything.

 

As for me, I don't think biological diferences between races makes for inherent superiority, but it is part of equation, just as much as poverty, culture, geography and, IMHO, genetics. As I said earlier, as a Venezuelan I am mongrel blooded (sangre mestiza), and I am proud of it. I have a pure mestizo friend (his mother is Indi- I meant Native, and his father an immigrant), and I once asked him if he is prouder of Montezuma or Cortez... The answer is La Malinche. Which is a great point.

 

 

I am not saying every scientist in the world agrees with me, or that the science is settled anywhere. I said that race is directly linked to biology, and biology is just a part of an equation. And that equation includes multiple factors of human life. In this, biology is one of the few constants... a part of the equation. You are the one claiming science and scientist are on your side, when that is a foolish thing to say in any field of science.

 

My assertion is very straightfoward: stressors can lead to genetic changes, providing a mechanism whereby issues embed into a segment of the population. Poverty is one fucking nasty stressor.

 

 

You live in Montreal and lecture me on poverty... Ugh, even if you are in lowest ring of Montreal's economic circle, it would make your life some fucking heaven compared to a middle class professional here. First world problem right there. But lets keep it on the subject:

 

Again, if poverty is the cause of all things, then how long have Africans, African Americans and Afro Descendants been kept down by the white man, a century, two, milleniums? Answer me that at least.

 

Because thats how long they have been in back seat while others, either Imperators or Kahns or Prophets or Ayatollahs had been driving the car. If you can understand the metaphor. Where is the black Plato, or Socrates, or Alexander, or even Mao, because at least he did something, even if it involved all that murder.

 

Genocide by machete and famine has been almost eternal in Africa. Using iron swords, gunpowder and heavy bombers is mostly a non African event. Either the africans have been poor in one of the richest areas of the world by millenia, or that white man can help himself, even then. Who was responsible for black poverty in the 800s, the Pope?

 

Answer me that at least, the absolute technological and social inferiority of an entire race should be a factor. That certainly has nothing to do with genetics.

 

And I am indulging in the fact that chronic heart disease was never one of my points, or mentioned by me.

 

This notion that all men are created equal should be a legal tenet for any civilization. But its not biologically true.

[Guest Jason L]

Jesus fucking wept. You really don't have a faint fucking clue how scientific research works do you?

 

You're not even arguing against my points, and I frankly don't really know what the fuck you're prattling on in the rest of your posts because it sure as shit doesn't have anything to do with discussing epigenetics. Because that's what I was talking about.

 

Let me reinterate what my point was, because you didn't seem to actually read it, much less the supposedly scant supporting material:

 

It's got nothing to do with race and genetics. But, there is a mounting body of evidence that poverty has epigenetic consequences which may very well be contributing to a feedback effect in the poorer segments of society - leading to high addiction and mental illness rates among other things.

 

 

Exactly how does an paper presenting an epigenetic model for CV disease not illustrate this point? You do understand what "consequences" and "among other things" mean right?

 

Anyway, if you're not going to bother with a rational, remotely fact based discussion I'm done with this.

 

What's incredibly ironic here, is that you're really the only one whose approached anything near racist in this thread.

[Cinaruco]

Exactly how does an paper presenting an epigenetic model for CV disease not illustrate this point? You do understand what "consequences" and "among other things" mean right?

 

BECAUSE. IT. DOES. NOT. HAVE. ANY. EMPIRICAL. EVIDENCE. IT. IS. A. SIMPLE. RESEARCH. ESSAY.

 

The own author does not claim any universal acceptance of his arguments, and accepts that the scientific community is not in agreement on this. It is not definitive prove of ANYTHING that you claim or not. That's science and how it works. You need empirical evidence, the end result of years of hypothesis, theory, experimentation and application. This is a paper from well qualified people, that does not impress me, as it is not that revealing, and not about my argument.

 

But the truth, it doesn't impress me the depth of a paper that argues that poor people are usually less healthy than rich people. Like, thats some Sherlock shit right there man. Its a first world deduction right there.

 

 

Exactly how does an paper presenting an epigenetic model for CV disease not illustrate this point? You do understand what "consequences" and "among other things" mean right?

 

 

It illustrates the fact that poor people have a tendency to be less healthy than whit - I mean rich people! Its whole argument is that external factors like poverty can directly adverse the health of a rich person. Wow, what a shocker, these dudes just discovered warm water. Poor people are less healthy because they usually live in areas of lower sanitation (from air pollution, to lack of running water to lack of toilets, mosquitoes, rats) than rich people. Just add the connotation that blacks, just let me quote:

 

 

African Americans not only suffer from a disproportionate burden of CVD relative to whites, but also have higher rates of the perinatal health disparities now known to be the antecedents of these conditions. There is extensive evidence for a social origin to prematurity and low birth weight in African Americans, reflecting pathways such as the effects of discrimination on maternal stress physiology.

 

 

Discrimination on maternal stress...

 

You dare lecture me on the scientific method, but you don't even understand it. And again, don't worm out of it, give me a straight answer, so before we part our ways, at least answer a question I have asked you, counting this one, four times, and I will quote it. Have the common decency of at least backing your arguments beyond this lazy attempt at distraction:

 

 

Again, if poverty is the cause of all things, then how long have Africans, African Americans and Afro Descendants been kept down by the white man, a century, two, milleniums? Answer me that at least.

 

Because thats how long they have been in back seat while others, either Imperators or Kahns or Prophets or Ayatollahs had been driving the car. If you can understand the metaphor. Where is the black Plato, or Socrates, or Alexander, or even Mao, because at least he did something, even if it involved all that murder.

 

Genocide by machete and famine has been almost eternal in Africa. Using iron swords, gunpowder and heavy bombers is mostly a non African event. Either the africans have been poor in one of the richest areas of the world by millenia, or that white man can help himself, even then. Who was responsible for black poverty in the 800s, the Pope?

 

Answer that Jason... That is after all my point you say we agree about.

 

 

You're not even arguing against my points, and I frankly don't really know what the fuck you're prattling on in the rest of your posts because it sure as shit doesn't have anything to do with discussing epigenetics. Because that's what I was talking about.

 

Urgh, yes I have. The question Jason, the one you have avoided and deflected since we started this amusing exchange. Answer it.

 

This is my first argument, if you are not clear:

 

 

Genetics has nothing to do with race... To answer the argument simply and without ambiguity, genetics is a branch of the science of Biology. I am a pragmatist (don't have a God, don't think he cares), and as such I believe with complete certainty on evolution, therefore also in biology. I believe that billions of years in the works are just there so that there are just more shades of skin than usual, or facial looks, or intelligence. Its not a mistake that a race is characteristically more industrious than other, nor is it that one is better at sports than the other, or better at war or arts, or science. There is no black Plato, nor Socrates, hardly any scientist of note. Come to think of it, even in military terms, I can think of Alexander, Ceasar, Hannibal, even king Ramses, the Kahn, Timur, Subutai and the Great Meji, never heard of their black equals.

 

Yes I have disagreed with you from the get go, but you change your argument in each post. I haven't.

 

And I remember you now. Yes, some time ago, saying women were capable of doing the same MOS as men, here on the FFZ, couldn't find the topic though. Yes, I am done with you, but not because of your endearing stupidity its because of this:

 

 

You can discuss race, genetics and poverty without being racist.

 

 

To this:

 

 

What's incredibly ironic here, is that you're really the only one whose approached anything near racist in this thread.

 

 

This amuses me to no end. You, a white man from Canada, is accusing me, a half American-Venezuelan mestizo with a mixed raced family going back to generations of racism. First world, how do I miss you. I knew from the get go you were not on par with this line of debate, but going for the race card while being white after just five posts is just... pathetic.

 

You should also know, that poor people who have cancer usually end up with the same medical treatment deficiencies as poor people with heart conditions. Whadyouknow...

 

It is sad, that this debate about race always comes down to, you disagree with me, you are racist. It should be important, the biological differences between races, from intellect to aesthetics, but its simply impossible.

 

Its a noble ideal, all men are created equal, a fine legal principle that I consider to be the foundation of a civilized nation. All men are created equal... before the law. Nature decides on its own... that legal mantra is just bullshit people tell themselves because they are too scared of the truth, and that is that the human animal has races, just a the canine animal, to the equestrian beast, and each has its own genetic template that generates its behavior. Men are not that different, we come from the same evolutionary process, except we can think. Some of us at least.

 

Seeing how this is going, I will preempt any further argument and comply with the GRATE SIHGHT laws and bow out. You have been mildly entertaining, and for that you get the last word. I do hope you answer my question about black poverty going back a millennium. That is your argument, that poor blacks are poor because they are... poor? Remember your first post at me:

 

 

It's got nothing to do with race and genetics. But, there is a mounting body of evidence that poverty has epigenetic consequences which may very well be contributing to a feedback effect in the poorer segments of society - leading to high addiction and mental illness rates among other things.

 

 

But I am not optimistic, you tend to deviate to assert your nonsense.

 

Peace.

[Guest Jason L]

BECAUSE. IT. DOES. NOT. HAVE. ANY. EMPIRICAL. EVIDENCE. IT. IS. A. SIMPLE. RESEARCH. ESSAY.

 

The own author does not claim any universal acceptance of his arguments, and accepts that the scientific community is not in agreement on this. It is not definitive prove of ANYTHING that you claim or not. That's science and how it works. You need empirical evidence, the end result of years of hypothesis, theory, experimentation and application. This is a paper from well qualified people, that does not impress me, as it is not that revealing, and not about my argument.

 

But the truth, it doesn't impress me the depth of a paper that argues that poor people are usually less healthy than rich people. Like, thats some Sherlock shit right there man. Its a first world deduction right there.

 

 

Seriously dude? "Research essay"? Are you really going to blow hard here when it's clear you don't know what a REVIEW PAPER is? Pathetic.

 

No scientist ever presents their work and claims "universal acceptance" because that isn't how science works. Like so very many people you are totally fucking clueless about the way science works.

 

A REVIEW PAPER is a collection and critical analysis of other scientific works. There is plenty of empirical data in that paper, it's obviously just beyond you in one way or another.

 

You evidently didn't fucking read the paper if you think all it does is argue that poor people are less healthy than rich people. Take a step back and think about how profoundly bad you look right about now.

 

It illustrates the fact that poor people have a tendency to be less healthy than whit - I mean rich people! Its whole argument is that external factors like poverty can directly adverse the health of a rich person. Wow, what a shocker, these dudes just discovered warm water. Poor people are less healthy because they usually live in areas of lower sanitation (from air pollution, to lack of running water to lack of toilets, mosquitoes, rats) than rich people. Just add the connotation that blacks, just let me quote:

 

 

Again, that's not what it says. You'd know this if you bothered reading it.

 

Answer that Jason... That is after all my point you say we agree about.

 

 

Why should I answer that? It has utterly nothing to do with the statement I made.

 

And I remember you now. Yes, some time ago, saying women were capable of doing the same MOS as men, here on the FFZ, couldn't find the topic though. Yes, I am done with you, but not because of your endearing stupidity its because of this:

 

 

Your memory is as shitty as your understanding of science then, because what I argued was that there are women out there fully capable of meeting the same minimum military fitness standards as men. This is, in fact, true.

 

 

This amuses me to no end. You, a white man from Canada, is accusing me, a half American-Venezuelan mestizo with a mixed raced family going back to generations of racism. First world, how do I miss you. I knew from the get go you were not on par with this line of debate, but going for the race card while being white after just five posts is just... pathetic.

 

You should also know, that poor people who have cancer usually end up with the same medical treatment deficiencies as poor people with heart conditions. Whadyouknow...

 

It is sad, that this debate about race always comes down to, you disagree with me, you are racist. It should be important, the biological differences between races, from intellect to aesthetics, but its simply impossible.

 

Its a noble ideal, all men are created equal, a fine legal principle that I consider to be the foundation of a civilized nation. All men are created equal... before the law. Nature decides on its own... that legal mantra is just bullshit people tell themselves because they are too scared of the truth, and that is that the human animal has races, just a the canine animal, to the equestrian beast, and each has its own genetic template that generates its behavior. Men are not that different, we come from the same evolutionary process, except we can think. Some of us at least.

 

Seeing how this is going, I will preempt any further argument and comply with the GRATE SIHGHT laws and bow out. You have been mildly entertaining, and for that you get the last word. I do hope you answer my question about black poverty going back a millennium. That is your argument, that poor blacks are poor because they are... poor? Remember your first post at me:

 

Dude you've got some seriously fucked up chip on your shoulder. You're flying the fuck off the rails.

 

You don't think this:

 

Where is the black Plato, or Socrates, or Alexander, or even Mao, because at least he did something, even if it involved all that murder.

 

 

Sounds kinda fucking racist?

 

 

 

or this?

 

just a the canine animal, to the equestrian beast, and each has its own genetic template that generates its behavior.

 

 

Holy fuckballs.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Jason L

[Cinaruco]

I have nothing more to say. You win. I am a racist and you are super smart and people should listen to your ideas.

[Ivanhoe]

 

The US system of tying property taxes to education budgets pretty much guarantees a income - education deficit. I live in a town with high property values and a low population. We have great schools. The next town over has a high population/low property values. They have terrible schools.

 

 

I lived in a high population/low property value city for two decades. They had terrible schools because the residents only gave a crap about football (the high school football coach made more than the superintendent).

 

It doesn't matter how much you spend on education when the students and parents have no respect for education. Higher property values come from higher parental incomes which come from higher educational drive. Upper middle class and rich people gonna do what they gotta do to get their kids a good education.

 

The correlation between per-student spending and educational outcome is weak;

 

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[Mr King]