Because, America

[R011]

6 hours ago, DB said:

Would it have evolved into a South Africa style apartheid, perhaps? If so, then that would last far longer and provide some alt hist support for SA as well.

Not South African style as African Americans couldn't be claimed to be citizens of different separate Homelands with their own territories and (puppet) governments.  Segregation like in real life would most likely be in effect. It's impossible to know how a US where slavery ended without a war would turn out nearly ninety years after a point of departure.

[rmgill]

10 hours ago, Nobu said:

The racial component of American slavery would need to become obsolete in the same way the economic component of it would need to become, in order for it to disappear naturally. That could, in a worst-case scenario, put its potential end date somewhere in the middle of the 20th Century.

The racial component is odd given that the benchmark case involving Anthony Johnson.

[BansheeOne]

So we jump over reconstruction and go straight to Jim Crow?

I do think that if the CSA would have survived somehow, it would have faced external pressure to end slavery soon. Alt histories typically have them supported by European powers like the UK and France, but the former in particular was pretty much the leading power in fighting against slavery, so the Confederates would have found it hard to ensure their economic survival by trading with nations critical of the institution.

[rmgill]

On 6/16/2021 at 3:02 AM, BansheeOne said:

So we jump over reconstruction and go straight to Jim Crow?

Who is doing that? 
 

On 6/16/2021 at 3:02 AM, BansheeOne said:

I do think that if the CSA would have survived somehow, it would have faced external pressure to end slavery soon. Alt histories typically have them supported by European powers like the UK and France,

Slavery was a practice across large portions of the world and continued into the 20th century. Gradual pressure was something needed and in some cases force. 

On 6/16/2021 at 3:02 AM, BansheeOne said:

but the former in particular was pretty much the leading power in fighting against slavery, so the Confederates would have found it hard to ensure their economic survival by trading with nations critical of the institution.

Yes. The UK trading with the Confederacy while operating the West African Squadron is a bit of an oddity. It's a good bet that they'd have exerted greater and greater pressure. However looking at where Slavery was ended, it didn't just stop in the US in the 1865 in Galveston. Interestingly, it took a few years longer before it was Ended in the US with the law being applied to a number of Indian Nations. 

[Ivanhoe]

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/crime/body-parts-human-remains-found-northeast-minneapolis-homicide-investigation/89-4635dcbb-579f-4ed6-b1de-be41dbe22159

 

Quote

 

MINNEAPOLIS — Speaking at a news conference Friday night, Minneapolis Police Department spokesperson John Elder said forensic teams identified the man whose body parts were discovered at two locations in northeast Minneapolis on Thursday.

The homicide victim was Adam Richard Johnson, 36, of Minneapolis.

The body parts were discovered near Third Avenue NE and Main Street NE, as well as Third Ave. NE and University Ave. 

Police say they still haven't been able to locate all of the body parts.  

 

I love this quote;

Quote

"We are treating this as a homicide investigation," Elder said.

Forget it Jake, it's Minneapolis.

 

[Adam Peter]

This case sounds interesting

 

[bojan]

Medieval guilds.

[Markus Becker]

For those not on Fakebook:

US facing ‘massive shortage’ of conspiracy theories as all of them have come true

 

 

[sunday]

46 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

For those not on Fakebook:

US facing ‘massive shortage’ of conspiracy theories as all of them have come true

 

 

🤣

[Roman Alymov]

On 6/23/2021 at 1:04 AM, Adam Peter said:

This case sounds interesting

 

That was predicted

 

 

[Adam Peter]

Never knew Canada was so involved

[BansheeOne]

So I see this is a black militia which holds that the 14th Amendment didn't make blacks US citizens, actually. 

Quote

Massachusetts: 11 held after hourslong armed standoff

1h ago

Several people wearing military-style clothes, carrying rifles and pistols were involved in the standoff on the I-95 interstate near Boston.

Residents in a suburban Boston neighborhood were asked to "shelter in place" early Saturday as an armed standoff between several militia members and police forced the closure of a US interstate highway.

What do we know so far?

Massachusetts State Police said 11 people are now in custody from the standoff, which began at 1 a.m. local time (0900 UTC).

The incident, in the town of Wakefield, partially shut down the major Interstate 95 highway. 

The miltia members were wearing military-style uniforms and carrying guns and pistols, according to police. 

Massachusetts State Police Colonel Christopher Mason said the men were allegedly visiting the state from Rhode Island for "training."

"Their self-professed leader wanted very much known their ideology is not anti-government," Mason said during a news conference. "Our investigation will provide us more insight into what their motivation, what their ideology is."

Which militia group is behind the standoff?

The armed men behind the standoff are reportedly members of a militia group called the "Rise of the Moors."

A website for the militia said they are "Moorish Americans dedicated to educating new Moors and influencing our Elders."

An anonymous armed man who claims to be a member of the group posted a video from Wakefield on social media.

"We are not antigovernment. We are not anti-police, we are not sovereign citizens, we are not Black identity extremists," the man said in the video. "As specified multiple times to the police that we are abiding by the peaceful journey laws of the United States." 

Video footage showed the armed men holding a large Moroccan flag.

https://m.dw.com/en/massachusetts-11-held-after-hourslong-armed-standoff/a-58147846

[Ivanhoe]

Perhaps they are planning to invade Spain again.

 

[rmgill]

10 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

So I see this is a black militia which holds that the 14th Amendment didn't make blacks US citizens, actually. 

https://m.dw.com/en/massachusetts-11-held-after-hourslong-armed-standoff/a-58147846

Pretty much the case for ANYONE trying to exercise 2nd/14th amendment rights in Massachusetts. Remember a bunch a years ago when they went house to house searching for 2 terrorists? They didn't have any idea what house they were in, they just started  a cordon and search of the entire area of suburbs. 4th amendment protections? Wot's that? 

[Mikel2]

[Nobu]

Dear Babe and Roger,

Please reserve a seat at the table for me. I am coming for you.

Signed,

Shohei

[BansheeOne]

The memes on this are gonna be awesome. 😁 

 

[Adam Peter]

Those pesky Russians...

US Probes Rash of Health Incidents Among Diplomats in Vienna

Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration is investigating a recent rash of mysterious health incidents reported by American diplomats and other government employees in Vienna, Austria, U.S. officials said Friday.

Some of the symptoms are similar to those first reported by U.S. diplomats and spies in Havana, Cuba, in 2016 and 2017 for which no definitive cause has yet been determined, according to the officials, who said more than 20 new cases were being looked at by medical teams at the State Department and elsewhere, including the Pentagon and CIA.

 

[Soren Ras]

On 7/3/2021 at 11:07 PM, Ivanhoe said:

Perhaps they are planning to invade Spain again.

 

 

Soren

[Ivanhoe]

4 hours ago, Soren Ras said:

 

Soren

I tried to come up with an acceptably funny Moops reference, but failed.

[Mikel2]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:16 AM, rmgill said:

The racial component is odd given that the benchmark case involving Anthony Johnson.

A black white supremacist.

 

[Nobu]

On 6/16/2021 at 3:02 AM, BansheeOne said:

So we jump over reconstruction and go straight to Jim Crow?

I do think that if the CSA would have survived somehow, it would have faced external pressure to end slavery soon. Alt histories typically have them supported by European powers like the UK and France, but the former in particular was pretty much the leading power in fighting against slavery, so the Confederates would have found it hard to ensure their economic survival by trading with nations critical of the institution.

It would depend on how that survival came to be in various ways. If by means of a victory over the North that was fast and decisive enough to preclude the kind of soul searching a long and difficult one would produce, I think the CSA deadlocks on the issue and kicks it down the road for a few generations. This puts us into the 20th Century...

If external pressure in the form of the Army of the Potomac and the USN wasn't enough to compel the CSA to end it, I don't see how much additional pressure the UK and France could bring to bear on it, particularly if counterweighted by Russia, Austria, Germany, et al. 

I see where you are coming from WRT Jim Crow. It is relevant, as the racial component of slavery in America is something the states of the CSA will have to reckon with. Given that the shift away from racial superiority/inferiority laws was a 20th Century phenomenon (the United States and Britain rejected Japan's Paris Peace Conference Racial Equality Proposal in 1919), I am not optimistic about the pace at which they would be able to do so.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Nobu

[sunday]

One could say Reconstruction ended because of some electoral hijinks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876_United_States_presidential_election

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1877

 

[RETAC21]

6 hours ago, Nobu said:

It would depend on how that survival came to be in various ways. If by means of a victory over the North that was fast and decisive enough to preclude the kind of soul searching a long and difficult one would produce, I think the CSA deadlocks on the issue and kicks it down the road for a few generations. This puts us into the 20th Century...

If external pressure in the form of the Army of the Potomac and the USN wasn't enough to compel the CSA to end it, I don't see how much additional pressure the UK and France could bring to bear on it, particularly if counterweighted by Russia, Austria, Germany, et al. 

I see where you are coming from WRT Jim Crow. It is relevant, as the racial component of slavery in America is something the states of the CSA will have to reckon with. Given that the shift away from racial superiority/inferiority laws was a 20th Century phenomenon (the United States and Britain rejected Japan's Paris Peace Conference Racial Equality Proposal in 1919), I am not optimistic about the pace at which they would be able to do so.

The war had already changed the CSA, had they managed to survive it would be clear to rank and file that changes needed to be made, to become a more industrial society, particularly as the UK cotton market would have gone away so alternatives would be needed.

This CSA would have also become more militaristic than the pre-war South as there would be a pemanent menace of a Northern invasion, which would require an arms industry, including shipyards, and there would be minor wars as both the USA and the CSA expand West and clash with each other.

All of these would meant that slavery would become unsustainable very fast, but that Jim Crow and discrimination would be widespread, as the black become the proletariat of the industrial South.

[nitflegal]

4 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

The war had already changed the CSA, had they managed to survive it would be clear to rank and file that changes needed to be made, to become a more industrial society, particularly as the UK cotton market would have gone away so alternatives would be needed.

This CSA would have also become more militaristic than the pre-war South as there would be a pemanent menace of a Northern invasion, which would require an arms industry, including shipyards, and there would be minor wars as both the USA and the CSA expand West and clash with each other.

All of these would meant that slavery would become unsustainable very fast, but that Jim Crow and discrimination would be widespread, as the black become the proletariat of the industrial South.

I have to ask, why would it be unsustainable very fast?  There are tens of millions of slaves today and while the trappings have changed somewhat from the 19th century look of slavery (less whippings and rapes) most of the goods we get from China are effectively made with slave labor.  A developing caste system in the enslaved population is easily predictable but for the Confederacy to evolve it has to figure out what to do with over a third of their population who are enslaved outright.  They can't be given the vote or political power and they have to be forced to behave, not advocate for their rights, and make the factories and agriculture work.  A victorious Confederacy that succeeded in creating its own nation state to preserve their peculiar institution would have a full on revolution if they tried to free the enslaved population after hundreds of thousands dead in the name of preserving it.  Note that after losing a war outright and a full on occupation they used every trick in the book to re-subjugate their black population.  Why would they be more merciful here?  Especially as the cornerstone of industrial labor with the majority of factories being manned almost entirely by slaves before the war, the South had already created a slave driven workforce in their factories.  

Note that there was an industrialized slavery system in use within the South before the war and it was both expanded as white men were drafted out of the factories and they actually clamped down on the perks that existed for industrialized slaves before the war.  If you were a slave in the 1850's your path to a better life was into those factories and there were ~200,000 of them owned (with ~11,000 whites so there was a 20:1 ratio of slaves to freemen in those factories already and their productivity figures were roughly comparable to the North's per worker) by the factories or rented out from the plantations.