Bar And The Bren

[Rick]

Was one more costly to build than the other?

Was one simpler to build than the other?

Thanks

 

[Richard Lindquist]

The BAR was not a simple weapon and it was finely machined as befits its 1918 technology. The Bren made a greater use of stampings as was more the case in the 1949s, and might well have been (though I do not have real numbers) cheaper than the BAR.

[DougRichards]

The BAR and the BREN, apart from both being magazine fed automatic weapons with bipods, were designed and intended for very different roles. It would be like comparing the cost of a Vickers water cooled MG with an MG42.

 

This line from is interesting:

 

http://ww2db.com/weapon.php?q=40

 

"Although they were generally well-liked, the high cost of £40 each gun was an issue for the British Army leadership."

 

Compare that with this, from:

 

http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/Bck/Events.html

 

 

1940

In 1940, the yearly wages of the following group of people were as follows:- farm labourer, £90 - skilled engineer, £148 - Battle of Britain pilot, started at £340.

 

 

Compare

 

"In 1931, the new Colt Monitor was made available to civilians during the Depression at $300 each, including spare parts kit, sling, cleaning accessories, and six magazines, but Colt records indicate no domestic sales occurred to individuals."

 

The US 1940 Census indicates that the average income was $1,368

 

So, some basic, if inaccurate mathematics / statistics, indicate that BREN and BAR, in terms of average income, were bloody expensive!

 

[Richard Lindquist]

The BAR and the BREN, apart from both being magazine fed automatic weapons with bipods, were designed and intended for very different roles. It would be like comparing the cost of a Vickers water cooled MG with an MG42.

 

This line from is interesting:

 

http://ww2db.com/weapon.php?q=40

 

"Although they were generally well-liked, the high cost of £40 each gun was an issue for the British Army leadership."

 

Compare that with this, from:

 

http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/Bck/Events.html

 

 

1940

In 1940, the yearly wages of the following group of people were as follows:- farm labourer, £90 - skilled engineer, £148 - Battle of Britain pilot, started at £340.

 

 

Compare

 

"In 1931, the new Colt Monitor was made available to civilians during the Depression at $300 each, including spare parts kit, sling, cleaning accessories, and six magazines, but Colt records indicate no domestic sales occurred to individuals."

 

The US 1940 Census indicates that the average income was $1,368

 

So, some basic, if inaccurate mathematics / statistics, indicate that BREN and BAR, in terms of average income, were bloody expensive!

 

At the time, the pound sterling fetched $4.86, so that the price of the Bren is USian dollars was $194.40.

 

The British penny was worth tw0 US pennies.

[DougRichards]

 

The BAR and the BREN, apart from both being magazine fed automatic weapons with bipods, were designed and intended for very different roles. It would be like comparing the cost of a Vickers water cooled MG with an MG42.

 

This line from is interesting:

 

http://ww2db.com/weapon.php?q=40

 

"Although they were generally well-liked, the high cost of £40 each gun was an issue for the British Army leadership."

 

Compare that with this, from:

 

http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/Bck/Events.html

 

 

1940

In 1940, the yearly wages of the following group of people were as follows:- farm labourer, £90 - skilled engineer, £148 - Battle of Britain pilot, started at £340.

 

 

Compare

 

"In 1931, the new Colt Monitor was made available to civilians during the Depression at $300 each, including spare parts kit, sling, cleaning accessories, and six magazines, but Colt records indicate no domestic sales occurred to individuals."

 

The US 1940 Census indicates that the average income was $1,368

 

So, some basic, if inaccurate mathematics / statistics, indicate that BREN and BAR, in terms of average income, were bloody expensive!

 

At the time, the pound sterling fetched $4.86, so that the price of the Bren is USian dollars was $194.40.

 

The British penny was worth tw0 US pennies.

 

 

It isn't so much the price in comparative US dollars, so much as the the relationship between the price and the wage at the time.

 

So that a BREN cost about 1/7th of the average US yearly wage, what would that be today? $7,000 or something? A Browning Monitor, ie, the civilianised BAR, was about 22% of the yearly average wage in 1930 or so, or about $10,000 today.

 

Comparision of 'raw' costs' is meaningless unless the income of the average person is taken into account.

Edited April 5, 2015 by DougRichards

[GPMG]

The 40 pound price was for the Mk I, the price for the Mk II dropped 20-25%, giving a price of 30-32 pounds.

[17thfabn]

"In 1931, the new Colt Monitor was made available to civilians during the Depression at $300 each, including spare parts kit, sling, cleaning accessories, and six magazines, but Colt records indicate no domestic sales occurred to individuals."

 

Of course this is the price for a single B.A.R. to a single individual. The price to the government for 10,000 of these weapons would be lower.

 

And once high volume war time production kicked in it would drop even more.

[Chris Werb]

M240 being sold commercially in the US recently.

 

http://www.gunsamerica.com/932667068/M240-SLR-FN-M240-MAG-Belt-fed-7-62-mm-NATO.htm

 

And a semiauto civilian version for those with deep pockets.

 

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/rifles/semi-auto/oow-line/m240-slr-270

[Rickard N]

Why oh god why?

 

/R

[Sardaukar]

Semi-auto M240?

Edited April 6, 2015 by Sardaukar

[shep854]

It's the only way most civilians can get one at a near-decent price. Post-'86 full auto guns are banned to civilians, unless they have a production license, and those guns are non-transferable.

[Chris Werb]

Semi-auto M240?

 

Because reloading is boring? If I had limitless money, I'd buy one. OTOH, if I had limitless money, I'd have a place somewhere where owning a full auto one was legal.

[rmgill]

As I have a ferret with the Later Mount to take an M240C/GPMG I looked around for transferable M240s. I found two in shotgun news. The used one was $140,000. The New in box one was $160,000.

Comparatively, Len Savage has made some Semi-Auto M240's from parts kits which run for $6,000 (last time I saw one for sale). The parts kits are not cheap as they're kinda rare to begin with.

[bojan]

There is semi-auto Maxim available in Russia. Has weird 10-rounds belt as they have limit on 10 rounds in semi-auto rifles. Which legally semi-auto Maxim obviously is.

Semi-auto DP with drum limited to 10 rounds also.

Edited April 9, 2015 by bojan

[Chris Werb]

As I have a ferret with the Later Mount to take an M240C/GPMG I looked around for transferable M240s. I found two in shotgun news. The used one was $140,000. The New in box one was $160,000.

 

Comparatively, Len Savage has made some Semi-Auto M240's from parts kits which run for $6,000 (last time I saw one for sale). The parts kits are not cheap as they're kinda rare to begin with.

 

Ryan, strictly speaking, wouldn't you be spending $140-160k to have the wrong gun on your Ferret as it should have a C6 or L7A2?

[rmgill]

The M240C is as close to a L7A2 as I can get in the states short of air-soft. A Semi-M240, configured as an M240C would be would be right bloody close in configuration. (I think) No pistol grip, no front sight, no butt stock.

I would hope it would be the same for mounting and feed mechanism. If I ever have that money for that particular project I'll probably be paying for what options I want anyhow...

Either way, short of winning the lottery or USC Title 18 § 922(o) going away, I can really only reasonably expect to spend $10k on a gun for one of my vehicles. After a semi-~GPMG the next priority would be a semi BESA.

I built an externally accurate oxy/propane simulator that manages to hide all the hoses/power leads in the spent brass chute. And I did it without cutting up a good barrel so I have three barrels in reserve. X-files had good points to make about that. Edited April 10, 2015 by rmgill

[BansheeOne]

Per the old joke of three Nazis walking into a BAR, the thread title made me think somebody should open an establishment named "The Bren Bar".

[Simon Tan]

FN is selling semi M249s now.

[shep854]

FN is selling semi M249s now.

Like kissing through a picket fence...

[rmgill]

FN is selling semi M249s now.

I saw that.

 

I hear they make an m2 .50 big too. Be interesting to see if they make a semi one.

 

You gotta love how FN is selling all sorts of their current designs in semi civilian form. Great for design and testing. It could only get better if they started making me FN FALs for the U.S. market.

Edited April 12, 2015 by rmgill

[Chris Werb]

Ryan, that is serious dedication and skill on your part preserving our military heritage. All kudos to you!

[Panzermann]

Per the old joke of three Nazis walking into a BAR, the thread title made me think somebody should open an establishment named "The Bren Bar".

That is the one down the street from The Winchester pub. Definitely the better decoration above the bar in the BREN.

[shep854]

Semi M2, advertised as 'M3-HB rifle':

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-oversize-rifles/m3-hb-50-cal-semi-auto-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0

Edited April 12, 2015 by shep854

[Chris Werb]

It's interesting that they claim this "FN conversion of Aircraft guns from the Saber jet's in the 1950's to ground gun use for Allied troops in the Korean war."

 

Is there any truth in that? M2HBs would have been plentiful and the M3s only offered a superior rate of fire that was really only of use in an AA role. Where would FN have gotten M3s from at that time? AFAIK the Belgians didn't operate aircraft equipped with them at that time (they got CF-100s from 1957 onward).

[shep854]

AIUI, ground troops were very quick to salvage guns from crashed aircraft. I don't know if it's just because they always wanted more MGs, or they valued the higher rate of fire. Probably both