Dawes Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 With optical sights being an increasing accessory on rifles and carbines these days, will some militaries eventually cease training on "old fashioned" iron sights and go to optics exclusively?
kaikaun Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Honestly, militaries need to train on all three fundamental kinds of aiming system: Iron sights: Align target, rear and front sights (3 point aiming)Optics: Align target and reticle (2 point aiming)Laser: Align laser point (1 point aiming) All three have advantages and disadvantages in different situations, and all three require somewhat different techniques and muscle memory. I am sure that some militaries will skimp, but it's not a good idea. Train all three. It's OK to focus on the more often used optics, but sometimes you do need to fall back to the backup iron sight. Edited January 2, 2015 by kaikaun
Archie Pellagio Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 A lot of militaries binned iron sight training long ago. The only time I've ever fired iron sights was for my M4 qual and that was just 20 rounds, non scored, just don't shoot anyone else at the range and you win.All our training with F88 (steyr) and F89 (minimi) is with the doughnut sight (put the bad man in the circle, pull the trigger, the orange and black bad man goes away) or with ACOG w/ red dot. I'd imagine the brits do all their training with SUSAT right from basic training, I'd imagine the Canadians are probably the same these days. Iron sights are nice to have as a back up, but thats it. If you're using them these days things have probably gone very wrong already...
rohala Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 How much better are optical sights over iron sights?I have zero experience on the matter. As a conscript (81mm mortar operator) I was merely shown a number of optical sights available at the battalion. All training and shooting was done with the iron sights. Iron sights are nice to have as a back up, but thats it. If you're using them these days things have probably gone very wrong already...
T19 Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 When we moved to the C7 or M16 they were originally issued with iron sights. Soon they upgraded with the ELCON sight. We were shown and issued an emergancy retro fit iron sight but it was not used. Overall scores with the sight improved I liked the sight much better than the iron sights. Ours is a needle. Put point on target. Target dies. Pretty simple
Archie Pellagio Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 How much better are optical sights over iron sights?I have zero experience on the matter. As a conscript (81mm mortar operator) I was merely shown a number of optical sights available at the battalion. All training and shooting was done with the iron sights. Iron sights are nice to have as a back up, but thats it. If you're using them these days things have probably gone very wrong already... Infinitely easier with optics.I'm sure someone here will come in a bang on about proper training and what not and how they shot the dick off a bee at the range in Bumfuck, Idaho with their Winchester once, but given the criminally inadequate amount of range time most soldiers (including infantry) in most militaries get, it makes a difference.Plus snap shooting is infinitely easier: Look at the piece of glass, put the dot/cross/circle on the bad man and that is where the bullet will go. Simple.No trying to align front and rear sights while focusing on the target which in all likelihood won't present for very long. The difference becomes more pronounced when you start talking about distance shooting with sights like ACOG and SUSAT where even a half trained monkey can reliably take down targets at 500m without a lot of training or experience.
EchoFiveMike Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Irons are for backup, lasers are for night vision. Spend 20-30 minutes teaching the concepts and how to obtain a zero and move onward. BUIS zero is the final part of a proper zeroing exercise. The US mil should be doing enough small arms training where the procurement of a dedicated economy training ammo makes sense. All this fancy crap we do for warload ammo is meaningless on stuff which should have a 3-6month turnover. S/F....Ken M Edited January 2, 2015 by EchoFiveMike
Briganza Posted January 2, 2015 Posted January 2, 2015 SUSAT was only issued to infantry on a one to one and only on the LSW for other units. I do not recall any iron sights being issued with the rifle in the infantry (there may have been a 1 to 5 issue but kept in a box in the very back of the QMs). SUSAT for other teeth arms were issued but not sure of scale. With the run-down. sorry draw-down, of the army more SUSATs became available so that they could be issued to support arms on a need basis and when in direct support of infantry units. Optics improve your ability to see what you are shooting at and remove much of the problems with teaching new recruits to shoot, but if they do not follow the marksmanship principles they will still not hit the inside of a barn wall.
Phil Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Optics are key to being able to ID enemy firing points and positions. From my experience and I know from others too, finding where the bastards are shooting you from is very hard work and very demoralising if you're sat there taking rounds and can't locate the enemy. It makes you feel like you're not doing anything if you're not shooting back, but shooting at ghosts is just a waste of ammo. On Ops now everyone gets an optic (SUSAT, ACOG or the new sight) but in training there's still iron sights for non-infantry. I don't know when they'll change that.
DB Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 What is "the new sight", Phil? Although I guess if you remembered what t was called, you'd have typed it
Simon Tan Posted January 3, 2015 Posted January 3, 2015 Elcan OS 4X aka the LDS.with a piggy back MRDS from domestic source.
shep854 Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Borrowing from BD's post in the 'Red Ice Box Meta Thread', the video of a repro ZF41 1.5x sight: https://www.full30.com/video/5968e95ab5647908f5a6d7ec708ecfa8
chino Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) In our range test (iron sights circa 1980s - 1990s) we had to run and shoot. The part where I did worst was the close range shooting at 5m! (ETA or was it 3m?) This was firing 5 rds from the hip at a figure 12 target near the ground to simulate enemy in a trench. I usually hit maybe 2. Though it was 5rds of the marksmanship test, we only ever trained at firing aimed shots and never for firing from the hip. (Most people did badly here and maybe that's why the new SAR21 rifle had a built in laser watchamacallit.) Before reaching 5m, there would be another 5rds at 15m standing without support. This one was also tricky since by then you would have run and shot from 300m to 200m, to 100m, and at 15m, there was no way the rifle would hold still and you squeeze and pray when your foresight passes over the target in between heaving your guts out. I love shooting from iron sights. Edited February 2, 2015 by chino
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