Us Sp-Aaa Pursuits.

[Calvinb1nav]

IIRC the USAF paid for the German Rolands to defend USAF bases in Germany but they were operated by German crews. A similar arrangement with Rapiers was undertaken with Turkey. Or at least that's what I remember from reading the Air Force Association magazine back in the late '80s.

[Calvinb1nav]

I thought the New Mexico ARNG Rolands were container versions mounted on trucks. We had one at Nellis AFB in the 547th Intelligence Squadron's Threat Training Facility (aka the Petting Zoo) when I was assigned there in 1995. As an aside, they had a great collection of working AFVs at that facility. Apparently all the stuff ran (T-55, BMP-1, MTLB, etc.) and they would take VIPs on rides in the stuff. By the time I got there the money was short and they didn't do that anymore. It was an unusual assignment for USAF ground vehicle maintainers to go there and work on Soviet vehicles though. One of the maintainers who got there at the same time I did was doing an annual inventory of the parts supply and found two cases of full-auto Iraqi AKMs not on the books/inventory. If I would have found them, they still wouldn't be on any inventory.

[Kenneth P. Katz]

ADA has always been the red-hair stepchild of US Army combat arms branches. Plus US ground forces had not been under air attack since 1943 in any significant way, which bred an attitude of complacency.

 

The low priority accorded to ADA was matched by a succession of failed projects (Mauler, Roland, Sergeant York) and second-rate operational systems (Redeye, Chaparel, Vulcan). On the other hand, Stinger, Hawk and Patriot were successful.

[Van Owen]

How capable would a Gepard/Roland system have actually been in combat? Would some version of tracked Rapier have been better? What about Croatale? ADATS was pretty late, and I imagine suffered from being a dual use system.

 

Now, of course, there are a number of systems available, such as NASAMS, (which the US does, or at least, did field protecting the capitol) and I've heard that there is land variant of ESSM offered as well.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Chaparel actually become somewhat useful near the end of its life? With late model Sidewinder missiles, I'd imagine it could have been unpleasent. IRIS-T is being developed into a SAM, as is the French equivalent, I think. AIM-9X with the correct setup should be useful. Otherwise, I've always heard good things about RAM, the Sidewinder-Stinger hybrid, though the navalization stuff makes it rather expensive, and it may be a tad specialized for land use.

[Colin]

The Russians have always seemed to mix guns and missiles

[JW Collins]

What about Croatale? ADATS was pretty late, and I imagine suffered from being a dual use system.

What would become the Crotale NG actually competed against ADATS under the guise of the VT-1 "Liberty" missile. However it wasn't ready in time for testing so earlier variants of the Crotale missile were used. If selected the first batch of vehicles may have also been forced to use the earlier Crotale/Shahine. On paper at least the Crotale NG looks to be very capable system.

 

While the anti-tank capability of ADATS was often talked about it was first and foremost an anti-aircraft weapon system. I'm not certain if the dual-purpose warhead would result in decreased blast/fragmentation effect compared to the competition.

Edited November 28, 2014 by JW Collins

[Van Owen]

Good weapon to have if you're worried about your AD units getting overrun by armor. Of course, if you're worried about that in the first place....

[CaptLuke]

Good weapon to have if you're worried about your AD units getting overrun by armor. Of course, if you're worried about that in the first place....

 

I would think that a major selling point would be that ADATS would remain useful even if you had air superiority, whereas a Roland or Crotale unit would become a waste of men and equipment. I'm actually a little surprised they didn't push a naval version as a competitor to 57mm / 76mm gun installations.

[Van Owen]

Navalization always drives up the cost of any system, such as RAM, and most existing such systems are capable of engaging the kind of surface threats likely to encountered at sea. I'm not sure if ADATS would work against a Mach 3+ AShM, that competitors are designed to take on.

[Gman]

I always thought the biggest threat from the air for US forces was the USAF ?

[Van Owen]

Leads me to a question. If, say a group of US infantry are accidently being bombed by an F-16, and the grunts fire back with a Stinger, and shoot down the offending bird, is it considered a case of self defense? Whose head rolls? Is there any offical policy out there? Obviously, someone is gonna be screaming over the com channels, but might take a bit of time to filter up to where it can do some good. The Stinger is the more immediate solution. (Assuming the F-16 is even still in range, that is.)

[T-44]

relevant old topic: http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24484

[baboon6]

You forget about the AML-20. Based on the great little AML-60/90. Light, nible and does pretty much any role. Could easy keep up with a M1 and protect it when g]

"Could easily keep up with a M1" only on roads. If cross-country not a chance in hell.

[Jim Warford]

I know many of you have heard my stories from the SGT York OT-II tests back in '85...those were the days...

 

[Gavin-Phillips]

I know many of you have heard my stories from the SGT York OT-II tests back in '85...those were the days...

 

 

 

One of the stories about where the vehicle automatically slewed its turret towards a toilet is one of my favourites of all time!

 

I've never been able to figure out how those 40mm guns on the M247 were supposed to replace both the Vulcan gun and the Chaparral missile systems? Surely the missiles could deal with more distant targets?

[Jim Warford]

The story about the toilet is true...the York's radar locked on to a latrine's ventilation system...mistaking the fans for helicopter rotor blades. Here's another pic from my short time with the Sgt York. That's me on the left...my friend there and I are holding a sensor pod that was accidentally dropped from an "attacking" A-7 Corsair during the exercise. So in this case, they really did "bomb" us...

 

[Sami Jumppanen]

 

I've never been able to figure out how those 40mm guns on the M247 were supposed to replace both the Vulcan gun and the Chaparral missile systems? Surely the missiles could deal with more distant targets?

 

I'm pretty certain that you can at least open fire with 40mm from further at incoming plane than with those Sidewinders of the time (presuming all-aspect missiles in use. If not then it isn't even a contest). it may also be that they thought that gun system could open fire faster than an IR missile can lock into target even if the missile was all-aspect capable.

[Sami Jumppanen]

 

The story about the toilet is true...the York's radar locked on to a latrine's ventilation system...mistaking the fans for helicopter rotor blades.

 

At least that feature worked.

[Sami Jumppanen]

 

Now, of course, there are a number of systems available, such as NASAMS, (which the US does, or at least, did field protecting the capitol) and I've heard that there is land variant of ESSM offered as well.

 

ESSM has been fired from NASAMS launcher. I think that the idea is to use an illuminating radar from HAWK system to guide it.

 

There is also SLAMRAAM-ER underworks and that is supposed to be basicaly an ESSM missile's body with AMRAAM's seekerhead.

[DKTanker]

The story about the toilet is true...the York's radar locked on to a latrine's ventilation system...mistaking the fans for helicopter rotor blades. Here's another pic from my short time with the Sgt York. That's me on the left...my friend there and I are holding a sensor pod that was accidentally dropped from an "attacking" A-7 Corsair during the exercise. So in this case, they really did "bomb" us...

 

Must be spring/summer of 1982.

[Marek Tucan]

Leads me to a question. If, say a group of US infantry are accidently being bombed by an F-16, and the grunts fire back with a Stinger, and shoot down the offending bird, is it considered a case of self defense? Whose head rolls? Is there any offical policy out there? Obviously, someone is gonna be screaming over the com channels, but might take a bit of time to filter up to where it can do some good. The Stinger is the more immediate solution. (Assuming the F-16 is even still in range, that is.)

I believe that during OIF there was a case of an US fighter being lit up by a Patriot battery and the pilot HARMing the radar in self defence?

 

Ah, here, found the article:

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article787.html

[Jim Warford]

 

The story about the toilet is true...the York's radar locked on to a latrine's ventilation system...mistaking the fans for helicopter rotor blades. Here's another pic from my short time with the Sgt York. That's me on the left...my friend there and I are holding a sensor pod that was accidentally dropped from an "attacking" A-7 Corsair during the exercise. So in this case, they really did "bomb" us...

 

Must be spring/summer of 1982.

 

 

DK Tanker; actually, summer of 1985.

[DKTanker]

 

DK Tanker; actually, summer of 1985.

 

Really? The green fatigues completely threw me.

[Panzermann]

Summer of '85 sounds really late for green uniform. Or was he so stubborn to not exchange his clothes?

[Jim Warford]

 

 

DK Tanker; actually, summer of 1985.

 

Really? The green fatigues completely threw me.

 

 

I know what you mean...I don't remember the wear-out date for that uniform. Those aren't standard fatigues, they're the light-weight Vietnam style jungle fatigues. Panzermann; you're right about some folks being stubborn; initially, very few really liked our BDUs and held-off as long as possible before making the switch.