Meanwhile In Turkey

[Roman Alymov]

Kurdish improvised attack UAW

[Dark_Falcon]

The return of the badminton bombs.

[Dark_Falcon]

Turkey's membership in the F-35 club seems on track to be voided:

 

 

Exclusive: U.S. sends message to Turkey, halts F-35 equipment shipments - sources

 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has halted delivery of equipment related to the stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft to Turkey, sources familiar with the situation said, marking the first concrete U.S. step to block delivery of the jet to the NATO ally in light of Ankara’s planned purchase of a Russian missile defense system.

 

In recent days, U.S. officials told their Turkish counterparts they will not receive further shipments of F-35 related equipment needed to prepare for the arrival of the stealthy jet, two sources familiar with the situation told Reuters. The aircraft is built by Lockheed Martin Corp.

The sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the next shipment of training equipment, and all subsequent shipments of F-35 related material, have been canceled.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has refused to back down from Ankara’s planned purchase of a Russian S-400 missile defense system that the United States has said would compromise the security of F-35 aircraft. Turkey has said it will take delivery of the S-400s in July.

The disagreement over the F-35 is the latest of a series of diplomatic disputes between the United States and Turkey including Turkish demands that the United States extradite Islamic cleric Fethullah Gulen, differences over Middle East policy and the war in Syria, and sanctions on Iran.

A Pentagon official had told Reuters in March that the United States had a number of items it could withhold in order to send Turkey a signal that the United States was serious about Ankara dropping its ambition to own the S-400.

The Pentagon did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Turkish officials in Ankara were not immediately available for comment.

The U.S. decision on the F-35s was expected to complicate Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu’s planned visit to Washington this week for a NATO summit. The latest development in the F-35 dispute came a day after Erdogan suffered one of his biggest electoral losses in decades in local elections.

Reuters reported last week that Washington was exploring whether it could remove Turkey from production of the F-35. Turkey makes parts of the fuselage, landing gear and cockpit displays. Sources familiar with the F-35’s intricate worldwide production process and U.S. thinking on the issue last week said Turkey’s role can be replaced.

The United States and other NATO allies that own F-35s fear the radar on the Russian S-400 missile system will learn how to spot and track the jet, making it less able to evade Russian weapons in the future.

[Nobu]

Interesting, particularly in light of the effect a complete Turkish cancellation would have on the importance of Japan's interest in purchasing a large number of F35s to Washington.

 

This bodes well for the upcoming Tokyo Round of trade talks between Trump and Abe in various ways.

[GARGEAN]

So much for independent policy and free democratic world... BTW what about Turkey money it put in program? Void too?

[Dark_Falcon]

So much for independent policy and free democratic world... BTW what about Turkey money it put in program? Void too?

 

The US Air Force and US Marine Corps have gone 'all in' on the F-35 and so the US is not willing to risk its effectiveness being degraded by Russia acquiring detailed working knowledge of its capabilities. We simply cannot afford to have the F-35 fail and so principals will be sacrificed to that end.

 

(To be clear, I do think allowing the USAF and USMC to place so much of their future in a single aircraft type that has suffered serious developmental problems was a mistake. but the mistake has already been made and now its consequences have to be dealt with.)

Edited April 2, 2019 by Dark_Falcon

[Stuart Galbraith]

So much for independent policy and free democratic world... BTW what about Turkey money it put in program? Void too?

 

Actually quite the reverse. It would be undemocratic to continue supporting a regime that is dead set on eliminating all democratic principles.

 

Although in light of the electoral result the other day, I cannot help but think its probably a bit premature.In the cash layout Erdogan is presumably going to lay down to stimulate his popularity, i wouldn't be surprised to see the S400 and the F35 getting cancelled anyway.

 

 

So who gets the European refurbishment contract now?

[Dark_Falcon]

 

So much for independent policy and free democratic world... BTW what about Turkey money it put in program? Void too?

 

Actually quite the reverse. It would be undemocratic to continue supporting a regime that is dead set on eliminating all democratic principles.

 

Although in light of the electoral result the other day, I cannot help but think its probably a bit premature.In the cash layout Erdogan is presumably going to lay down to stimulate his popularity, i wouldn't be surprised to see the S400 and the F35 getting cancelled anyway.

 

 

So who gets the European refurbishment contract now?

 

 

Italy, most likely.

[GARGEAN]

 

The US Air Force and US Marine Corps have gone 'all in' on the F-35 and so the US is not willing to risk its effectiveness being degraded by Russia acquiring detailed working knowledge of its capabilities. We simply cannot afford to have the F-35 fail and so principals will be sacrificed to that end.

 

Sophistry, nothing more. It has nothing to do with "russian intelligence", and Turkey hasn't become bigger ally of Russia with S-400 deal than ally of US and NATO. Anyways, want to control tech? Put strick control on AFs where it will be based and demand cooperative security.

Principles... Principles my ass. Or maybe this "fear of ebil russian spies" has something to do with threats of sanctioning Indonesia for Su-35 buy too? Or India with S-400? Or China with both tech pieces?

[GARGEAN]

Actually quite the reverse. It would be undemocratic to continue supporting a regime that is dead set on eliminating all democratic principles.

 

God, I am so tired of that bullshit... this has flat out NOTHING to do with democracy. Or maybe I should note UAE, SA and few other funny buddies of US? Edited April 2, 2019 by GARGEAN

[Josh]

 

So much for independent policy and free democratic world... BTW what about Turkey money it put in program? Void too?

 

Actually quite the reverse. It would be undemocratic to continue supporting a regime that is dead set on eliminating all democratic principles.

 

Although in light of the electoral result the other day, I cannot help but think its probably a bit premature.In the cash layout Erdogan is presumably going to lay down to stimulate his popularity, i wouldn't be surprised to see the S400 and the F35 getting cancelled anyway.

 

 

So who gets the European refurbishment contract now?

 

 

Erdogan controls the news. The Istanbul results have been contested and will be overturned, one way or another. Ankara might be harder to force, but it too is being legally contested.

[Josh]

 

 

The US Air Force and US Marine Corps have gone 'all in' on the F-35 and so the US is not willing to risk its effectiveness being degraded by Russia acquiring detailed working knowledge of its capabilities. We simply cannot afford to have the F-35 fail and so principals will be sacrificed to that end.

 

Sophistry, nothing more. It has nothing to do with "russian intelligence", and Turkey hasn't become bigger ally of Russia with S-400 deal than ally of US and NATO. Anyways, want to control tech? Put strick control on AFs where it will be based and demand cooperative security.

Principles... Principles my ass. Or maybe this "fear of ebil russian spies" has something to do with threats of sanctioning Indonesia for Su-35 buy too? Or India with S-400? Or China with both tech pieces?

 

 

The administration's official statements link the F-35 with the S400 sale. It would be understandingly troubling to have your premiere aircraft being actively tested against the AD system it is designed to bypass. I personally wouldn't want to see the aircraft handed to The Sultan under any condition because his path has diverged from US interests: he helps extremist Islamist militants regularly, likely ISIS back in the day (why was Kobane an ISIS target anyway?).

 

Additionally while he is a nominally elected official, but one who uses his control of media, the courts, etc to silence any decent. I don't think he will be leaving power regardless of any election results; I suspect he is a Maduro waiting to happen.

[GARGEAN]

 

The administration's official statements link the F-35 with the S400 sale. It would be understandingly troubling to have your premiere aircraft being actively tested against the AD system it is designed to bypass. I personally wouldn't want to see the aircraft handed to The Sultan under any condition because his path has diverged from US interests: he helps extremist Islamist militants regularly, likely ISIS back in the day (why was Kobane an ISIS target anyway?).

 

And with all that I can quite agree and feel same in S-400 way. But one with brains just can't unsee all those bulbs US recently made of face on "free trade" and other shitty slogans it used for so long. And with all that S-400/Patriot hurr-burr seems like nothing more but yet another forcing to choose US path (=buy more US stuff).

[Josh]

 

 

The administration's official statements link the F-35 with the S400 sale. It would be understandingly troubling to have your premiere aircraft being actively tested against the AD system it is designed to bypass. I personally wouldn't want to see the aircraft handed to The Sultan under any condition because his path has diverged from US interests: he helps extremist Islamist militants regularly, likely ISIS back in the day (why was Kobane an ISIS target anyway?).

 

And with all that I can quite agree and feel same in S-400 way. But one with brains just can't unsee all those bulbs US recently made of face on "free trade" and other shitty slogans it used for so long. And with all that S-400/Patriot hurr-burr seems like nothing more but yet another forcing to choose US path (=buy more US stuff).

 

 

The F-35 is a business deal. It has nothing to do with trade agreements or democracy and it is foolish for some posters to imply it is. One side is backing out of that deal; presumably the deal was structured such that there are economic penalties that must be paid to Turkey as a result. Turkish investment was rather small AFAIK and could be easily compensated, along with any penalties written into the contract. Compared to the cost of the entire program incurred by the US, it would be a rounding error.

[Nobu]

Or India with S-400?

 

Interestingly, if the S400 line of reasoning for voiding F-35s to Turkey is to be believed, Modi's S400 purchase has done the same for the prospect of India and Indians ever being entrusted with the F-35.

 

Fortunately for them, SU-57s will likely still be available.

 

Italy, most likely.

 

Springtime for Conte, and Italy.

[glenn239]

 

 

The administration's official statements link the F-35 with the S400 sale. It would be understandingly troubling to have your premiere aircraft being actively tested against the AD system it is designed to bypass. I personally wouldn't want to see the aircraft handed to The Sultan under any condition because his path has diverged from US interests: he helps extremist Islamist militants regularly, likely ISIS back in the day (why was Kobane an ISIS target anyway?).

 

And with all that I can quite agree and feel same in S-400 way. But one with brains just can't unsee all those bulbs US recently made of face on "free trade" and other shitty slogans it used for so long. And with all that S-400/Patriot hurr-burr seems like nothing more but yet another forcing to choose US path (=buy more US stuff).

 

 

The US is probably worried about allowing a hostile power (read, Russia), to gather masses of S-400 radar data on the F-35 under controlled conditions. AI learning with enough data might be able to generate algorithms that increase detection range and accuracy.

[Dark_Falcon]

Or India with S-400?

 

Interestingly, if the S400 line of reasoning for voiding F-35s to Turkey is to be believed, Modi's S400 purchase has done the same for the prospect of India and Indians ever being entrusted with the F-35.

 

Fortunately for them, SU-57s will likely still be available.

 

Italy, most likely.

 

Springtime for Conte, and Italy.

 

The F-35 would not be a good fit for India, due to its high price for starters. India needs cheaper aircraft in order to have enough aircraft.

[Josh]

It wouldnt be drastically more expensive than Rafael.

[Nobu]

India's strategy has nothing to do with allowing itself to be used as pawn in major power chess games, and everything to do with using others as pawns to assist it in the long, painful climb out of its thirdworlder hole to the major power chess table.

 

The economic cost of pursuing this strategy is the equivalent of a pawn gambit in various ways.

[urbanoid]

It wouldnt be drastically more expensive than Rafael.

It could in the end be even cheaper, euro stuff is produced in relatively small numbers so prices are quite high. Also, the Indians were modernizing their Mirage 2000s for USD 40 or 50 mln apiece, it's like ... half price of a newer, more modern aircraft.

[Josh]

They might be interested in the B and C variants specifically for their carriers.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

Actually quite the reverse. It would be undemocratic to continue supporting a regime that is dead set on eliminating all democratic principles.

 

God, I am so tired of that bullshit... this has flat out NOTHING to do with democracy. Or maybe I should note UAE, SA and few other funny buddies of US?

 

 

At least we dont bomb the living Christ out of our allies to prove a point, pour encourager des autres. Spare me the bleeding heart, it fits you as well as a German fits Spandex.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

They might be interested in the B and C variants specifically for their carriers.

 

I dont think the Indians will buy F35. I think this is a gambit to leverage better terms out of the Russians on the Su57.

[Josh]

They have no use for Su-57 without tech transfer. At that point the F-35 is the more mature product, were the US to give them access. Also if the Rafael deal doesnt go through they will need an embarked aircraft.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Josh

[Stuart Galbraith]

They have no use for Su-57 without tech transfer. At that point the F-35 is the more mature product, were the US to give them access. Also if the Rafael deal doesnt go through they will need an embarked aircraft.

 

The US isnt going to give them tech transfer. We found it an absolute bloody nightmare just to get access to the software code, and we were one of the plankholders on the F35.

 

Do I think the Russians will? Well they seem desperate to get someone to pay for ramping up production, so maybe. They have done curious things before, like selling Su35 to China. I think at this point its either share access, or not get any at all, and for that reason I think they are far more likely to deal than the Americans.