Does L15 Apds Have An Expiry Date?

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

Better than the M1, or the Leopard2? Well it was an excellent tank, but perhaps not. Ive actually seem some of the Brixmis footage of T64 on exercise in Europe, and I would swear it was running the same L60 engine the Chieftain was using. It was an excellent tank, but its limitations show why they kept T72 in production and procured T80 as a replacement.

 

The T80 was an excellent tank for its era. But it only started appearing in significant numbers at the other end of the 1980's. The first one wasnt even seen in East Germany till December 1983, and as it happened, it never fully surplanted T64.

 

The real concern of T64 was its armour and its gun. The gun we found a stopgap in with stillbrew (or at least, we convinced ourselves we had) and as for the armour, we seem to have accelerated the procurement of a new generation of long rod penetrators and ATGM's. For example, BAOR took delivery of Milan3, and introduced L23 in the 1980-1984 period.. We were developing the latter since at least 1979, but its my opinion based on the timing (and the concurrent announcement of the procurement of Challenger 1) that a new perception of Soviet armoured capability drove the procurement.

 

I keep refering to this, but it appears the discovery of the neustralitz document was a bit of a game changer in perception of how good Soviet armour was.

Was talking more about 70's, where there was no M1 or Leo 2. And what in the end so much shocked brits in T-64 above what was already known?

 

 

T64 didnt even start arriving until about 76/77. At that point the the most modern tank in GSFG was still T62, which Chieftain and Leopard1 and M60A1, for all their flaws, had an edge on. Not a significant one Ill grant you. In actual fact, the most common tank in the Warsaw pact right till the end was T55, not even T72. Even the West Germans, the most modern Army in the Warsaw Pact, never made a full transition to it.

 

The armour was a composite. They stumbled on a document in a garrison rubbish dump (reportedly used as toilet paper, which was in short supply in garrisons) and discovered that the T64's armour was considerably more effective against HEAT and Ap than was previously thought.

 

You could argue that the Reagan/Thatcher arms build-up was at least as mcuh responsible, but lets just say it was one among a number of catalysts.

 

 

There has been a lot of debate what this document actually was. Im told they never put details of armour in official documentations, so this might just have been a notebook someone was retaining details during a training course. It doesnt seem to have been released yet via the national archive, whatever it was.

[Wiedzmin]

 

We keep going on about what a bonanza the 1973 war was for studying Soviet kit. Seems the reverse as also true, and the Soviets had a real haul when the Bar Lev line as overrun.

 

Taking into account the fact that sights, engine, torsion bars, etc. from Leopard-1 were delivered to USSR, as well as some technical documentation, i think the USSR knew at least something about at least the german tech

Edited June 2, 2017 by Wiedzmin

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, there is a real interesting story there. Wasnt it something to do with components being smuggled out of Italy or something?

[Wiedzmin]

there no info about source of components

[bojan]

Romania had Leopard 1 engine and complete suspension as early as 1979.

[Nikolas93TS]

Yeah, there is a real interesting story there. Wasnt it something to do with components being smuggled out of Italy or something?

 

That was my theory, based on a handful of Italian parliamentary and Senate reports, particularly from the late 1980s and early 1990s.

 

It emerged Casalesi clan in 1977 was intercepted negotiating a tank sale, and Italian SISMI (Military Intelligence and Security Service) indicated a disassembled Leopard, ready to be shipped, at Villa Literno train station. Then again, a telephone call was intercepted in February 1986 in which Nuvoletta clan was negotiation a sale of "some" Leopard 1s with East Germany.

 

Unfortunately, that is all I could find from above mentioned public records, specifically regarding the Leopard 1. I suspect more detailed reports (including the outcomes of mentioned deals) are still classified somewhere deep in state archives. Judge Carlo Palermo was investigating the Stibam affair ( the company selling weapons to Sadam, among others) for 4 years when case was taken from him and transferred to another judge, in the moment he mentioned connections with then-ongoing Prime Minister of Italy Bettino Craxi (who will eventually see his demise for corruption in 1992). He survived an assassination attempt in 1985 and decided to retire from the judicial system, while arms traffic investigation simply stalled. Trafficking which is well known, but never investigated and eventually forgotten by the mainstream public.

 

A theory bordering wild conspiracies, but I have seen enough to suspect it might be very true.

[JWB]

On a side note.Casalesi clan

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

Yeah, there is a real interesting story there. Wasnt it something to do with components being smuggled out of Italy or something?

 

That was my theory, based on a handful of Italian parliamentary and Senate reports, particularly from the late 1980s and early 1990s.

 

It emerged Casalesi clan in 1977 was intercepted negotiating a tank sale, and Italian SISMI (Military Intelligence and Security Service) indicated a disassembled Leopard, ready to be shipped, at Villa Literno train station. Then again, a telephone call was intercepted in February 1986 in which Nuvoletta clan was negotiation a sale of "some" Leopard 1s with East Germany.

 

Unfortunately, that is all I could find from above mentioned public records, specifically regarding the Leopard 1. I suspect more detailed reports (including the outcomes of mentioned deals) are still classified somewhere deep in state archives. Judge Carlo Palermo was investigating the Stibam affair ( the company selling weapons to Sadam, among others) for 4 years when case was taken from him and transferred to another judge, in the moment he mentioned connections with then-ongoing Prime Minister of Italy Bettino Craxi (who will eventually see his demise for corruption in 1992). He survived an assassination attempt in 1985 and decided to retire from the judicial system, while arms traffic investigation simply stalled. Trafficking which is well known, but never investigated and eventually forgotten by the mainstream public.

 

A theory bordering wild conspiracies, but I have seen enough to suspect it might be very true.

 

 

Thank you Nikolas, that is genuinely interesting. Do let us know if you ever find anything more on it. Just dont end up sleeping with the fishes over it.

[Wiedzmin]

about L15(It is not specified what L15 exactly, L15A2 maybe, or A3)

17th and 18th 1963 Exercise "Pallos"demonstration of the fire power and fighting capabilities of Chieftain.

 

120mm/60 - 1828 meters(2000 yards) - complete penetration

120mm/60 - 3000 meters - complete penetration (strange, but it's from report)

150mm/60 - 914 meters(1000 yards) - complete penetration

 

 

6th September 1962 F.V.R.D.E ranges Kirkcudbright

 

120mm/60 - 1828 meters(2000 yards) - complete penetration o.v = 4472 f.s

100mm/70 - 457meters(500 yards) - compete penetration in 1st test, and 3.75 in plug out at 2nd

150mm/60 - 914 meters(1000 yards) - complete penetration

 

thanks to Fu_Manchu for sharing this info

Edited June 6, 2017 by Wiedzmin

[Stuart Galbraith]

The 3000 metre shot. Pure speculation on my part, but I know when the Long Rod penetrators did attacks at long distance, they were hitting the targets in a near indirect path. Im just wondering, depending how the plate was angled, perhaps it was hitting the place at somewhat less than a 60 degree angle. Though I do idly wonder what the dispersion of APDS would be like at 3000 metres.

 

Unless of course those are all HESH shots.

[Wiedzmin]

2000 yards for APDS

 

Spread Hor. 28 inches by Ver. 35 inches (70x87.5cm)

MPI Right 17 inches minus 13 inches( R 42.5cm-32.5cm)

S.D of Dispersion (Min) Hor. 0.45 by Vert. 0.54

(Mils) Hor. 0.13 by Vert. 0.16

3000 meters for APDS

Spread Hor. 55 inches by Ver. 75 inches (137,5x192.5cm)

MPI Right 3 inches minus 2 inches( R 7.5cm-5cm)

S.D of Dispersion (Min) Hor. 0.52 by Vert. 0.8

(Mils) Hor. 0.15 by Vert. 0.24

[Stuart Galbraith]

This is interesting stuff. Did you ever find any dispersion data for L23?

[Wiedzmin]

no, i tried find anything about L23, but... maybe report have name like "Exercise ....." but i don't know any "name" for such exercise

[Wiedzmin]

 

btw L15 vs Centurion mantlet from 1880(4138 ft/s)yards.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Wiedzmin

[Stuart Galbraith]

What is the performance of 115mm AP rounds? Only I was reading an account of a hit in this area from a 115mm round on an Israeli Centurion which similarly penetrated, just wondering if its a similar level of performance.

[Wiedzmin]

after hit on photo mantlet was cracked, for repair you will need new mantlet, new gun cradle and 300 hours of work

 

i haven't seen any reports about 115mm APFSDS behind armour effect, but all wars near Israel have so much myths...

 

btw, L15A2 was used in this test, and maybe i will get something about L23A1, but not L23

Edited June 10, 2017 by Wiedzmin

[GARGEAN]

What is the performance of 115mm AP rounds? Only I was reading an account of a hit in this area from a 115mm round on an Israeli Centurion which similarly penetrated, just wondering if its a similar level of performance.

If 3BM4 - probably worse against zeroed target and comparable/better against highly angled. Plus bigger drag so worse long range performance. But after armour should be MUCH greater due to some moments of early steel APFSDS rounds.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, David Isby claimed in his 'Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army' that the Israelis considered the 115mm gun, at least at short to medium range, to be a better gun than the 105mm. An fact i gather they DID penetrate Chieftains in the Iran/Iraq war, despite the Chieftain having a range advantage over it. Poor operation probably didnt help of course.

[Przezdzieblo]

 

after hit on photo mantlet was cracked, for repair you will need new mantlet, new gun cradle and 300 hours of work

 

i haven't seen any reports about 115mm APFSDS behind armour effect, but all wars near Israel have so much myths...

 

btw, L15A2 was used in this test, and maybe i will get something about L23A1, but not L23

 

 

Looks like WO 194/466. It is a nice report that is not only gives a hint about hit results but also about logistic asspect of recovery of damaged vehicle. Plus nice examples of FVRDE pictorial code in right upper corner.

 

 

 

Found something from Dec 1979 on XL23E1, labelled as "512 mm" (body? penetrator itself?), W-Ni-Cu, for gun with pressure of 26 tsi. There were also discussed few more rounds: W-Ni-Cu 512 mm (33 tsi, for MBT-80 gun); W-Ni-Fe and DU of 512 mm (26 and 33 tsi) and two W-Ni-Fe and DU of 650 mm (26 and 33 tsi).

XL23 programme (there is also known another designation, XL22, the most probably earlier) seems an offshot of trilateral gun trials. US shared some part of their APFSDS technology with UK; penetrator that "won" in 1976 shooting from L11 gun was US-orgin. W-Ni-Cu was firstly prefered because older APDS could be utilised.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Przezdzieblo

[Wiedzmin]

 

Found something from Dec 1979 on XL23E1, labelled as "512 mm" (body? penetrator itself?)

 

 

i think penetrator itself.

 

 

 

 

XL23 programme (there is also known another designation, XL22, the most probably earlier) seems an offshot of trilateral gun trials. US shared some part of their APFSDS technology with UK; penetrator that "won" in 1976 shooting from L11 gun was US-orgin. W-Ni-Cu was firstly prefered because older APDS could be utilised.

 

 

what year of trilateral gun trials with UK APFSDS ? i remember you posted something about 1974, with UK APDS L15A4

 

btw read some report about ATGM trials, swingfire, tow, milan(103mm) and vigilant, is there any good info about milan penetration ? because even this report contain only penetration path in nato heavy triple for milan and nato single medium target, no "simple RHA" penetrtaion

[Stuart Galbraith]

Correct me if Im wrong (I probably am) but wasnt the trilateral gun trials with a British 110mm gun? I cant recall if they built it or not, but ive a feeling they built at least one working prototype. They had pretty much pulled the plug on it by 1976 or so, if DEFE 48/240 'A study of Future Main Battle Tank Options to replace Chieftain' is any guide.

[Przezdzieblo]

In 1975, during the first round of trilateral trilas, both US and UK tested new APFSDS projectiles. The first one was XM774 model 28, the second - 110 mm projo with US core. Both were only considered as growth potential and as such did not count into official results, leaving FRG as a winner, but also convincing US that the next round of trials could be useful.

In 1976 UK tried new APFSDS and L11 combo which has shown the best performance in terms of armour penetration. Hence US gave UK more time to develop the new 120 mm gun - EXP-M13A.

In late 1977 there were the last round of trilas in USA. UK and FRG rounds gave almost the same performance, UK HEAT failed. FRG won on system maturity ground (officially).

[Wiedzmin]

btw what was the penetration(at 0, at 60 for 2km?) for XM774 ? serial round doesn't look to have good l/d 1/14 - 1/16 or so ?

Edited June 15, 2017 by Wiedzmin

[Wiedzmin]

This is interesting stuff. Did you ever find any dispersion data for L23?

L23A1

 

i also have penetration, but don't understand it at moment, they fired at 130mm single plate, but get 482mm at PB and 435 at 2km

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

This is interesting stuff. Did you ever find any dispersion data for L23?

L23A1

 

i also have penetration, but don't understand it at moment, they fired at 130mm single plate, but get 482mm at PB and 435 at 2km

 

That looks to be broadly 450 RHA, which is about what I thought it is. This is highly significant if true, because it means what I supposed L26 and L27 are might be true also. Hmm, good news. Or at least, better than Ive been assured it was.

 

Thanks for that. Im not remotely technically minded to comment on how good this is, how does it compare to american 105mm rounds of the same period?

Edited June 27, 2017 by Stuart Galbraith