European Disdain For Combat Shotguns

[Yama]

How about simple availability? European shotgun culture has mostly been about double barrels and the repeating shotgun mostly an American business. Sure FN have always made them, and nowadays there are other European manufacturers offering them, but many/most nations had a domestic SMG at some point or certainly had them on the shelf from military sources.

I vaguely remember that Finnish army had 2-barreled shotguns in store up until the '90s. (Though they may have been intended for scaring birds from the airfields than combat)

 

Yep, SMGs will rise, so most of it will be useless at 100 yards+.

That's why you fire short bursts, or even single shots.

Suomi SMG test-fired to 100 metres: left one single shots, right is bursts:

[Colin]

that is pretty close to what the Canadian SMG would do as well. I can shoot my .40cal Berreta Storm out to 200m with a scope quite accurately. the scope has a BDC for 5.56, but reduces the required hold over quite a bit.

[Chris Werb]

Those SMG 100 metre groups are amazing. Are you sure they weren't fired off a machine rest?

[bojan]

I am pretty sure they were not, some time ago I posted hit% for various SMGs (from standing position) at various ranges. At 100m most have decent chance to hit such target.

 

Edit - here:

http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37627&do=findComment&comment=1011980

Note how small was Sten effective range, and how Thompson went from better then MP-40 @ 100m to equal @ 200m.

And note those were 5-rounds bursts (5 and 10 rounds at 25 and 50m range) and unsuported standing shooting position.

Edited August 31, 2014 by bojan

[Chris Werb]

Thank you for that Bojan. The sheer amount of quality (and sometimes highly obscure) information at your disposal never ceases to amaze me!

[Yama]

Those SMG 100 metre groups are amazing. Are you sure they weren't fired off a machine rest?

Rest (possibly bench). Suomi was very accurate: reportedly in quiet sectors squirrel hunt with SMG's was popular pastime.

 

Hollywood has never got submachine guns right: it's so weird watching Finnish war movies as the soldiers *gasp* AIM with their SMG's.

[Chris Werb]

To be fair Hollywood rarely has soldiers aiming assault rifles.

 

Why fire one shot when ten will do? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmPylZecOQc

[wendist]

The Swedish army use the Remington 870. In the video below it shows up at 1:40.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2GuDZ6zfk

 

I recommend that you mute the video!

[Murph]

Some of the problems with shotguns, is limited ammo, fierce recoil (on the 18" bbl pump), and fear of the user for the weapon. Me, I love my shotgun, I love it so much that when I retire, I asked the Sheriff if I could buy it. Shotgun buckshot has limited penetration (I know), and slugs are erratic on penetration (I know). The biggest issue for smaller users is the recoil. Most of our female deputies asked for a rifle to qualify with, since they hate shooting the shotgun. Plus you only really have 4 rounds (only needed more once). Training on the shotgun takes a lot longer to tame the beast, and most departments do not have the time, or budget to do so.

 

 

Remember, it is only evil if the enemy utilises it.

---

IMHO the strongest argument against shotguns in police use is colateral damage from the spread of shot, which by its very nature is anything but precise and can hit unintenionally innocent bystanders. And US law enforcement departments seem to turn more and more towards compact carbines like an M4 and other similar rifles and away from shotguns for general issue. One big issue with shotguns is that they need much training to use them to their potential, that is with fast reloads, change of ammunition according to situation etc. Which is time the average cop does not have anyway who is struggling to get more than the regular qualification as training exercise. Also the reach of a shotgun is barely longer than a pistol's and definitely shorter than a rifle's. And solid slugs pose a grave danger by easily going through dry walls. Many LEO schv loads just break up when hitting a wall or get stuck so there is much less of a penetration risk.


As a pyrotechnical door breaching tool or for less lethal ammunition projectors shotguns are in use on both sides of the pond. The shotgun has just never been the go to weapon in europe except for hunting ducks and other birds. And firearms use by police is less overall in europe so there was not much need for more fire power than a pistol.

[Colin]

Hence my use of the knoxx stock and Limbsaver pad, I call it the "Wussmaster 2000" and have that combo on my 14.4" Fabarm which is a wonderful shotgun.

[savantu]

What about using Brenneke ammunition with shotguns ?

 

The biggest ammo I've fired were 5mm balls 12/76 53gr. That would be really nasty as army ordnance.

[Argus]

It's funny (to me) how retaliative it all is. One generation sees as brutal, something their forefathers took as a matter of course.

 

A Martini-Henry in .450/577 is a narrow butted cast iron bitch compared to a 12ga hammer gun with 20" bbls or No.1 Mk.III.

 

shane

[Colin]

Brennke is my preffered ammo as it penetrates further than Foster style slugs. A lot of people have switched to modern 45/70 for bear dense as the bullet has better penetration and almost the same mass and more terminal energy.

[EchoFiveMike]

I had some Brennekes in Iraq. No chance to use them, but the plan was for vehicle disablement where 40mm or AT-4 was ruled out. S/F.....Ken M

[Panzermann]

Out of curiosity we shot with brenneke slugs at an old second generation Golf ( called Rabbit in the US I think) a few years back. It seriously trashed the engine. even if not hitting the cylinders inside, the perforated radiator and outer engine block would have not let it drive very far. And one of the front wheel suspensions did not look very good indeed afterwards. So yes, definitely works against cars.

[DougRichards]

Rather than start a new thread, this may be a suitable place to mention this.

 

The Australian Armed Forces use the Austeyr rifle and carbine. But see this image of an Australian Federal Police Office guarding Parliament House, Canberra:

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-24/australian-federal-police-parliament-canberra/5766998

 

 

yes, he has an M-4.

 

Australian special forces use the M-4A5, as does tank crew and Tiger helicopter crew. Further complicated by the existence of a carbine version of the Austeyr, and variants of the Austeyr with rails.

 

Any suggestions as to why a LEO, particularly one under the same level of govt as the military, would not use the same weapon?

 

Or does the all-black M-4 just look meaner?

 

The other possibility is that the Police Officer may be an SAS or Commando trooper in a police uniform?

 

Having said that, I used to work with an ex Federal Police Officer who worked at Sydney airport. He told me that he was often part of a team of four sent to the outward end of the runway, the team equipped with: Shotgun, 'sniper rifle', M16 and MP5, and their sidearms. They went out when an EL Al aircraft was departing, so the Australian Federal Police were anything but a one weapon type force.

[Panzermann]

The Police got its own procurement department, so make their own decisions independent of the Army. And AR-15 derived rifles can be had with many different accoutrements. And the price may be cheaper, because of the many competing offerings pushing price down. The AUG is offered by two different big producers. And I doubt Steyr and Thales compete with each other for contracts.

 

 

For all I know the australian Police could have gone totally cheap and bought chinese CQ clones.

[DougRichards]

Then there is this:

 

When the Army is much more lightly equipped than the police.....

 

take a close look at the armoury that the first black figure on the left is carrying.

 

Now, if I was a Solomon Islander and I encountered a few fellows in green, each with one weapon and wearing a hat, or a bunch of robocops, I know which I would trust more.

 

Edited September 24, 2014 by DougRichards

[DB]

Why the blue tape (or whatever it is marking the police weapons)?

[Paul G.]

Guess? Indicates training ammo. Look at the tips of the AUGs. Looks like some kind of blank device.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Paul G.

[GPMG]

Those are Blank Firing Attachments on on the AUGs, so a logical conclusion is the blue tape on the police guns and mags indicate blank firing to. I've seen this on a NZ police AR15 as well at the local pistol club when they used to train there, they had one with blue tape which was blank only I guess and the rest were being used live fire.

The NZ police have went with AR15s aswell even though most of the Defence Force has AUGs. Different tendering process at a different time.

[Argus]

It could just be colour, I don't believe I've seen a locally produced AUG without anything but a 'green' stock, and that might be a bit to military for the fuzz, and not to discount the tacti-cool factor either.

 

shane

[Simon Tan]

Thales Lithgow F88s have a totally independent TDP to Steyr-Mannlincher.

[Argus]

You got me there Simon TDP?

 

IIRC there are about a 100 points of difference between the Lithgow and original Austrian pattern.

 

shane

[Archie Pellagio]

First of all, that is a very old photo, I'd be surprised if it was post 2011 going off of a lot of the little details in it.

 

Why the blue tape (or whatever it is marking the police weapons)?

 

Indicates blanks, pretty traditional internationally.

Army is so paranoid about the drills and procedures for not intermixing blank and ball that marking the mags would be irrelevant.

 

Guess? Indicates training ammo. Look at the tips of the AUGs. Looks like some kind of blank device.

 

They're the old Blank Firing Adapter (BFA) long since replaced by Bullet Catcher which is a heavy lump of metal (also red) that is rated to stop three rounds...

There was a newer sleeve version which covered the whole barrel that made an appearance on TS13 but I haven't seen them anywhere else.

 

It could just be colour, I don't believe I've seen a locally produced AUG without anything but a 'green' stock, and that might be a bit to military for the fuzz, and not to discount the tacti-cool factor either.

 

shane

 

F88 (original fixed sight) and F88SA1 (Picatinny rails) have the green stock and black barrels. F88SA2 have the lighter olive brown stock and sand coloured receiver/barrel/sight assembly.

EF88/P90 will have the same colour finish as the SA2.

 

Thales Lithgow F88s have a totally independent TDP to Steyr-Mannlincher.

 

Yes, the lines of evolution have become increasingly divergent, the EF88 is a perfect example of something that is effectively a new weapon.