Historical Documents / State Secrets That Are Still Classified And Intentionally Held From The Public?

[Mr King]

Pardon the poor title, but what I was trying to convey was how far back are there records / documents / state secrets for military events from various past conflicts and wars that are known to exist, but are still withheld from the public. Being an American I was thinking mainly American records and documents, but would love to hear about any others. For example are there any events from WW1 / War with Spain / Civil War that records are known to exist for but they still have not been released for public consumption? I am meaning intentionally and not so much just bureaucratic inertia keeping info classified simply because of the work it would involve to go through declassify all of it.

[Archie Pellagio]

I don't know about "known to exist but still secret" - Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

 

Stuff pertaining to the Kennedy assassination is a big one that jumps to mind, always hear the conspiracy theorists banging on about how certain files won't be released until well into this century.

 

AIUI there is stuff pertaining to the USS Liberty attack that is still kept quiet but weather that is still classified or simply swept under the rug who knows?

 

Possibly some X-Files type stuff to do with UFO's and little green men etc possibly?

[RETAC21]

Nope, CIA declassified in 2011 the oldest document that remained classified: https://www.cia.gov/news-information/press-releases-statements/press-release-2011/cia-declassifies-oldest-documents-in-u.s.-government-collection.html

 

"These documents, which describe secret writing techniques and are housed at the National Archives, are believed to be the only remaining classified documents from the World War I era. Documents describing secret writing fall under the CIA’s purview to declassify."

[glenn239]

The UK's Foreign office apparently has illegally withheld over a million documents going back to the 1700's. Here,

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140318/10001226613/uks-foreign-office-holds-conference-how-it-will-put-illegally-withheld-public-records-into-public-domain-refuses-to-allow.shtml

 

In terms of WW1 stuff, apparently one of these withheld documents outlines (decades after the war) how King George had demanded of Grey on 2nd August 1914 that he had to find or create some pretext for war against Germany - and when Germany invaded Belgium the king sent a note to Grey to the effect that there was no need to look further for an excuse, here's the invitation.

[Rich]

The UK's Foreign office apparently has illegally withheld over a million documents going back to the 1700's. Here,

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140318/10001226613/uks-foreign-office-holds-conference-how-it-will-put-illegally-withheld-public-records-into-public-domain-refuses-to-allow.shtml

 

In terms of WW1 stuff, apparently one of these withheld documents outlines (decades after the war) how King George had demanded of Grey on 2nd August 1914 that he had to find or create some pretext for war against Germany - and when Germany invaded Belgium the king sent a note to Grey to the effect that there was no need to look further for an excuse, here's the invitation.

 

Nothing like taking two different things, mashing them together, and then creating an "apparently". As you well know from the discussion you are involved in at AHF, the revelation by Adrian Graves of the conversation the King had with his father in 1933, and the revelation of the "secret document horde" are two different events. It is only your assumption that any of the "withheld documents outlines" anything remotely resembling the event described by the King to Cecil Graves. I could assume they also "outline" that the Illuminati actually rule Britain, but until we have actual access to the documents your assumption is about as valid as mine.

[firefly1]

.

 

Apart from the Foreign Office files (which have many, many historians upset) there is the general policy regarding documents ;

 

The "official" term of withholding was 30 years and is coming down slowly to 20 (I think) HOWEVER,

 

a: There are other official holding periods, known to include 50, 75 and 100 years.

 

b: These periods are usually said to be where there are names or details in the file which may upset relatives of people named in the files. Now, sensibly, I can understand this where someone's son or daughter might otherwise hear horrific details of how someone was murdered or killed in an accident or at war, however it is SAID (?????) that such compassion is also extended to people who made mistakes, etc.....

 

c: There are definite cases where files which were critical of individuals were deliberately destroyed (whether out of "sympathy" or cover-up is a perrenial argument.

 

d: Some files "suddenly" appear in the TNA:PRO without announcement and not in keeping with the normal release schedule.

 

e: Of course some files which were "destroyed by fire" ( e.g. SOE), "water damaged and unable to read" or "affected by asbestos and destroyed" (Naval Historical Branch) have miraculously ressurected themselves - but those are a very few.

 

f: The Government has stated that they will keep back certain types of files for an unlimited time, "nuclear" is included in that. There are files which have been cleared, but supposedly an extremely large amount which haven't. There is a general fear by historians that the vast majority will be destroyed.

[Max H]

I don't know about "known to exist but still secret" - Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

 

There are quite a few closed files in the UK national archives with open descriptions, eg here

[Bob_Mackenzie]

FWIW worth my trips to the UK National Archibve seem to indicate that there is nothing technical military from after 1980, and dics from before that are withheld if the bit of kit is still in service

[DB]

That last would be consistent with the 30 year rule being in place, I suspect.

 

It would also be reasonable to withhold performance of a previous generation system if it was believed that it would give too much information away about a current system's performance. "You mean they can do that, and have been doing that for 30 years?"

[Argus]

I did read somewhere the technical drawings for Blue Danube, which I think had been on at least a limited release, have been reclassified. Presumably they were worried about Iran copying them, though it would be faintly amusing to see the Iranian defence industry try to replicate a V Bomber in order to carry it.

 

Might seem silly, but then IIRC (and am open to correction) the Iranian's pretty much bootstrapped a mini-sub project from the RN's X-craft program (which ran into the 50's) accessed via the archives, and various atomic programs have their technical foundation in de-clas Manhattan Project files, centrifuges techniques and the like.

 

shane

[RETAC21]

 

I did read somewhere the technical drawings for Blue Danube, which I think had been on at least a limited release, have been reclassified. Presumably they were worried about Iran copying them, though it would be faintly amusing to see the Iranian defence industry try to replicate a V Bomber in order to carry it.

 

Might seem silly, but then IIRC (and am open to correction) the Iranian's pretty much bootstrapped a mini-sub project from the RN's X-craft program (which ran into the 50's) accessed via the archives, and various atomic programs have their technical foundation in de-clas Manhattan Project files, centrifuges techniques and the like.

 

shane

 

 

You can get the actual specifications/measurements of the Fat Man design from the Wikipedia. Centrifuges were marginal to the Manhattan Project, they became relevant post-war.

[mnm]

... replicate a V Bomber in order to carry it.

 

Fibreglass is your friend

 

 

Full Scale B-24 Liberator Replica shown on Sound Stage During Movie Filming-Brisbane, Australia.

[rathi]

Documents pertaining to the sinking of the Lancastria are still being witheld by the UK government. The vessel was carrying evacuees from France in 1940 when it was sunk by Ju-88s. The refusal to release the documents is fairly suspicious, precisely because other than being loaded way beyond safe operating procedures (like every other ship during the evacuation), there is nothing to explain the need to continue keeping them secret for so long.

 

The radio transcripts sent to the Lusitania would also be of interest. They could confirm if Captain Turner requested to change course but was denied by the Admiralty.

[Colin]

 

I did read somewhere the technical drawings for Blue Danube, which I think had been on at least a limited release, have been reclassified. Presumably they were worried about Iran copying them, though it would be faintly amusing to see the Iranian defence industry try to replicate a V Bomber in order to carry it.

 

Might seem silly, but then IIRC (and am open to correction) the Iranian's pretty much bootstrapped a mini-sub project from the RN's X-craft program (which ran into the 50's) accessed via the archives, and various atomic programs have their technical foundation in de-clas Manhattan Project files, centrifuges techniques and the like.

 

shane

 

I suspect Canada whoring out Candu's to anyone had more to do with Nuclear proliferation than the archives.

[Ken Estes]

The US Dept of Energy after 9/11 went through a lot of post-1945 declassified material in the Natl Archives and reclassified matters related to nucs, delivery systems and fuzing. I had been through certain USMC files for 1945-56 before that, in 1999-2000. When I returned to them in 2006, many folders had been removed from the boxes including such hot items as the drawing for the erector to the Honest John, as well as undetailed pages on the rocket itself. The USMC Shepherd Board, studying nuc weapons effects on phibops study done in 1946 was similarly retired at NARA.

 

So we can all feel safer now.

[lucklucky]

All difficulties getting the data pile up.

[X-Files]

Thought we had a thread on this already, but I guess naught -

the bit about the forensics on nuclear weapons detritus is fascinating.

 

Red Star Rogue

Kenneth Sewell, in his book Red Star Rogue (2005), offers additional theories and speculation.^[24] The book makes the case that K-129 was hijacked by an 11-man special forces team placed aboard and directed by a cabal of KGB hardliners, with full involvement of KGB director Yuri Andropov, that the submarine was successfully commandeered, and that the KGB team actually attempted to launch a nuclear missile targeted against Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Sewell's thesis is that the attack was designed in a manner to implicate the Chinese and point away from any Soviet involvement in an effort to provoke a nuclear confrontation between China and the United States. At that time, relations between Moscow and Beijing had deteriorated to the point at which many believed that open war was inevitable (see the Sino-Soviet Split), while relations between Beijing and the U.S., though cool in 1968, drastically improved by 1970 (culminating in the Sino-American rapprochement and 1972 Nixon visit to China). The theory is that the Soviets feared a U.S.-China detente which would disadvantage Soviet interests around the world. The author's hypothesis is that the missile's fail-safe devices were inadequately circumvented, and an explosion resulted which sank the submarine. This book also claims that Project Azorian was almost a total success and recovered all of its targeted material, including a nuclear missile warhead and cryptographic equipment and codebooks.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Azorian

 

See also

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Star-Rogue-Submarines-Nuclear-ebook/dp/B001NIT7KC

[RETAC21]

And better: http://projectjennifer.white.at/

 

or http://www.amazon.com/Project-Azorian-CIA-Raising-K-129-ebook/dp/B004P1JENO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1413398035&sr=1-1&keywords=project+Azorian

 

If you want to avoid the fiction.

[Richard Lindquist]

The US Dept of Energy after 9/11 went through a lot of post-1945 declassified material in the Natl Archives and reclassified matters related to nucs, delivery systems and fuzing. I had been through certain USMC files for 1945-56 before that, in 1999-2000. When I returned to them in 2006, many folders had been removed from the boxes including such hot items as the drawing for the erector to the Honest John, as well as undetailed pages on the rocket itself. The USMC Shepherd Board, studying nuc weapons effects on phibops study done in 1946 was similarly retired at NARA.

 

So we can all feel safer now.

Honest John-erector? The HJ was fired from a launch rail on the back of a five ton truck usually at about a 30 degree elevation (though that could be varied somewhat). The other two pieces of gear included a "handling unit" which was a crane and a bed for a spare rocket and a "heating & tie down unit" which was a five ton truck with beds for two additional spare rockets. You also had four 2.5KW generators and four electric blankets as the rocket propellant was cold sensitive. You may be thinking of a Sergeant or Corporal missile system.

 

The only thing classified about the Honest John was the warhead. All of the details of the rest of the equipment was laid out in unclassified Tech Manuals.

[Ken Estes]

DOE had classified a lot of that stuff secret on their own in the 1950-60s in the archives, and when it was auto-declassified under the Clinton regime 12 year rule, some of it was exempted from the declass, but then 9-11 stampeded them into even stronger measures.

 

Sorry about the HJ erector, I was well aware of what it was, just thought it a generic term; launcher would be just as good. The USMC had them as well as Lacrosse, in fact a USMC major was a key player at Redstone for the Lacrosse.

[Richard Lindquist]

DOE had classified a lot of that stuff secret on their own in the 1950-60s in the archives, and when it was auto-declassified under the Clinton regime 12 year rule, some of it was exempted from the declass, but then 9-11 stampeded them into even stronger measures.

 

Sorry about the HJ erector, I was well aware of what it was, just thought it a generic term; launcher would be just as good. The USMC had them as well as Lacrosse, in fact a USMC major was a key player at Redstone for the Lacrosse.

The launcher was an extremely crude affair. The elevating and traversing gears were unsealed. The 3rd AD HJ unit was the 2/73 Arty. They had an old German steam cleaner in their bn motor pool. After their annual firing, they would use the steam cleaner to get the firing residue off the rails of the launcher. That would blow all of the grease out of the gears and soon, the launcher would show up in my shop. I finally told the Bn Cmdr that every year when he finished firing, to just clean the thing and bring it over so that we could regrease the whole assembly rather than waiting till it froze up. That was in 1965. I don't think there was anything classified at the time.

 

Was Lacrosse truly ever fielded? I thought it was pulled rather quickly after a lot of equipment was purchased. The army bought a lot of 10KW Kurtz & Root generators for Lacrosse and then had to take them back into depot and rewire them as 10KW AC generators for general issue (they were dogs).

[Ken Estes]

Actually, Richard, the initial declass-exempt tags I saw were from Atomic Energy Commission, so that should date it a bit. When the whole shelves of HQMC docs 1945-60 were declassified in late 2005-06, the files related to warheads, missiles, launchers and fuzes were removed to the Natl Archives classified room with locator sheets left in the former archive boxes. Something of the same has been done with Ord Dept files that I reviewed c.2011-13 and various reports have been removed from the files of the Ord Tech Cmte and so forth.

 

Lacrosse must be the textbook case for procurement school courses for 'buy before fly'. It went operational and was deployed but had to be withdrawn for tech glitches. Wiki has the general info, but this guy's web article has nice details: http://www.guntruck.com/Lacrosse.html

 

The M4 Lacrosse Guided Missile System was the third atomic battlefield missile deployed by the US Army. Lacrosse was intended to provide the US Army (and US Marine Corps originally as a method of replacing USMC artillery units with guided missiles) a road mobile, short ranged, atomic battlefield surface-to-surface guided missile with pinpoint accuracy. Lacrosse would be used for close infantry support, in addition to general military support for Theater Commanders.

 

The SSM-A-12 (later redesignated MGM-18A and the a designation for MGM-18B or Lacrosse Type II was set aside but the funding for this missile never materialized) Lacrosse Type I Guided Missile began development in 1947 as a US Marine Corps project, and finally deployed in 1959 after some long growing pains and switching from a Navy missile plan to a US Army weapons program. The whole Lacrosse system would be removed from American service a short while later in 1964. It was only deployed and used by the US and Canada for a short time and historically touted as a failure. US Army references cite the Lacrosse Weapon System saw deployment in the Continental United States in July 1959, Europe in March 1960, and South Korea in April 1960.

 

 

 

This material confirms my opinion formed in 1999 when I was reading the files for documentation for my Marines Under Armor. Despite the budget cutbacks it suffered post-Korea, the USMC never saw a nuc or a missile it did not like. It even took USN Terrier missiles, placed them on Nike-Ajax type launchers and fielded it as the Medium (missile) AA Bn based at 29 Palms in the mid-50s.

 

The Lacrosse program material I read included correspondence [c.1957] between HQMC and Redstone's CG pleading for the return of a Maj. Morrison, USMC who was somehow essential and only he could keep Lacrosse on track. Turns out he had an MIT PhD and HQMC had simply issued him orders after his three year tour was up. I took notes, thinking of an eventual article, but have never returned to it.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Ken Estes

[Richard Lindquist]

19i50s was the era of "mutually assured destruction" and the proliferation of rocket and missile systems to the field for tactical use (including the infamous DAVY CROCKETT). The development iof Nuke projectiles for tube artillery rendered most of them superfluous. Hopefully USMC never got involved with the force structure and logistics hogs like CORPORAL and REDSTONE.

.

[Ken Estes]

Some of my notes from 1999:

 

Ltr G3à C/S 16Apr 58:

Maj Morrison was de facto hd of army LACROSSE missile prog, after 5 yrs at Cornell Aero Lab program office in Buffalo. Army wants him back to get program smoothly again. Joint USA-USMC user eval at White Sands. Ultimately activate USMC Lacrosse Unit (Hvy Arty Missle Btty). Send to billet at Redstone Arsenal.

 

 

 

 

 

7Aug58 G3àG4 USMC nuc wpns reqmt.

 

762mmrocket 30/Div/opn,

8” 24/div/opn,

318mm rocket (little john) 30,

Terrier AA 1per4HE,

Lacrosse 20/div,

Hawk SAM 1per4HE,

ADM 3/div.

 

[firefly1]

l

 

 

............ Lacrosse would be used for close infantry support, .........

 

 

 

 

 

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Not TOO close, I hope.

 

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