Meanwhile, In Libya...

[EchoFiveMike]

It's my understanding that most of these "refugees" are of the durka-durka variety and they draw heavily on the welfare system, as well as disproportionately using most other services.

 

Africa and the ME are awful places. It would be logical to assume bringing people from those awful places will make those places more like Africa and the ME, which we all agree are awful.

 

How does this make sense? How does this benefit Europeans? S/F....Ken M

[Simon Tan]

Please sign up for Host-an-Illegal program if you are so vexed. Give them a roof over their head, food, clothing etc. Be responsible for them.

[BansheeOne]

Cheap labor is not really an issue, though European right-wing nutters keep muttering about this thare conspiracy by government and big business to flood the continent with exploitable furriners; in the end, everybody on an official payroll costs the same high European wages and benefits mandated by laws, and big business is better served by moving production to the exploitable furriners in their third-world sweatshops. Speaking for Germany though, there is actually a lack in high-skill occupations like, of all things, technical engineering and IT, now somewhat alleviated by movement from the economically troubled southern EU countries with high unemployment, particularly among the young.

 

Aging societies are a bigger problem; since Europeans, with exceptions like the French, can't seem to be bothered with producing sufficient offspring, qualified immigration is seen as a way around the resulting trouble; not just keeping up pension schemes, but also whole rural areas dying out in a spiral of the young moving to the fleshpots and presence by shops, banks, doctors and mail offices reducing in response to a lack of customers. In 2000, average age in Germany was 39.9, currently it's 46.3; by 2030, the city of Suhl is projected to be the oldest place in the country at 55.6, losing 29 percent of its population since 2010, while Munich as the youngest will still be 43.3, some areas in the belt around the city actually gaining 20 percent.

 

Of course masses of refugees from trouble spots in Africa and the Middle East crossing the Mediterranean is not exactly qualified immigration. As noted, high legal standards, lengthy bureaucratic procedures, extra-legal ethic considerations, refusal by countries of origin to take people back and people destroying their ID documents, dropping into illegality etc. prevent large-scale deportations of those unwanted. Countries on the Mediterranean, particularly Italy and Greece, are overrun with refugees and often turn a blind eye (or in some cases encourage) to them moving on north in contravention of the Dublin agreements whereby they should stay in the EU country they first entered (though part of the problem is that these countries are particularly lacking in speedy bureaucratic processing).

 

OTOH Sweden, Germany and some others actually host the highest relative numbers because of attractive welfare conditions and particularly high legal and extra-legal standards protecting refugees from deportation. Germany has been pushing to introduce a key for EU-wide distribution based upon population, economic conditions etc. similar to how it's done here domestically to spread them around states and muncipalities; obviously countries which so far share little or none of the load are opposed to this though.

 

There is of course the ideological divide between right-wingers who want to fortify Festung Europa and left-wingers who want to gather the downtrodden masses of the world to their breast (though not necessarily in their own house); both extremes are unrealistic. German conservatives have been peddling the idea of reception centers outside Europe, most likely in North Africa, where refugees should congregate pending evaluation of their application for legal entry, which I find not an entirely bad idea if countries can be found to host these; the left maintains that if possibilities for legal immigration was greatly widened in the first place, there would be no problem with uncontrolled refugee streams.

 

However, in my opinion there is a basic fact you can't evade, being that supply of refugees is for practical purposes unlimited. Political instability, economic conditions and population growth in the Middle East and particularly Africa are such that people will still try to cross the Mediterranean after being refused entry in the pretty extraterritorial reception centers and/or under any faintly realistic legal immigration policy. The reception center idea only really works for Europe if people picked out of the sea under both border security and humanitarian points of view are consequently shipped back there, and the question is what it will cost the EU for the putative North African countries to put up with the load (though I'm quite sure it will always be financially cheaper than housing them here). And doubtlessly many will always try their luck with the sea rather than legal bureaucracy.

 

Traffickers have always adapted to a change of situation; when the Italian were running Operation Mare Nostrum in response to the public outcry of hundreds of refugees drowning off Lampedusa, picking up people right out to the shores of Tripoli, traffickers simply abandoned their cargo on the edge of Libyan rather than EU waters. What has pissed off people most is that they also have taken to run in after EU ships have taken the people off the overloaded boats and get said boats back for further use, to the point of shooting at the ships if they thought their salvage was being interferred with. That is probably a major reason behind the intention to destroy the boats in a military operation, though the latter is for now limited largely to the area of current Operation Triton by the EU's border security agency FRONTEX.

 

Humanitarian advocates have criticized that this is not good enough under the rescue aspect, but you could also argue that you really need to destroy traffickers' assets ashore before they even get used, similar to what was done late in Operation Atalanta against Somalian pirates which has been cited as somewhat of a role model for this undertaking. It is this point that the unrecognized Tripoli government has warned again of course, but in the end a real solution will probably need to entail propping up Libya as something resembling a functional state, which is a whole different tar baby; a lot of people are having second thoughts now about how the country was left behind after the toppling of Gaddafi.

[Simon Tan]

It is called White Man's Burden for a reason. It would be better if those advocates of an open shore policy actually put their Euros and their homes where their mouth is.

[BansheeOne]

Mediterranean migrants: Libya rejects EU military plans

 

4 hours ago

Libya has criticised EU proposals to authorise the use of force against people smugglers taking migrants across the Mediterranean to Europe.

The Libyan ambassador to the UN told the BBC that the EU's intentions were unclear and "very worrying".

The EU is seeking a UN mandate to allow military action to destroy or halt smugglers' boats in Libyan waters.

The measures are part of the EU's proposed plans to stop migrants drowning in the Mediterranean.

The UN estimates that 60,000 people have already tried to cross the Mediterranean this year. More than 1,800 people are feared to have died making the journey in 2015 - a 20-fold increase on the same period in 2014.

Many of the migrants are fleeing conflict or poverty in countries such as Syria, Eritrea, Nigeria and Somalia.

The EU is also discussing plans to expand maritime rescue services and introduce a quota system for distributing asylum seekers between EU members.

The European Commission is expected to propose the quota system on Wednesday, along with plans to increase legal means for migrants to come to Europe so that they do not turn to smugglers.

A quota system would need to be agreed by EU states and is highly controversial, with many countries fiercely opposed.

EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini is taking her case for international intervention in Libya to the UN Security Council in New York later on Monday.

The EU has proposed "systematic efforts to identify, capture and destroy vessels before they are used by traffickers".

Diplomats are thought to be drafting a UN Security Council resolution that would allow EU vessels to conduct operations against smugglers in Libyan waters, under chapter seven of the UN charter that authorises the use of force to maintain international peace.

However, Libya's ambassador to the UN, Ibrahim Dabbashi, told the BBC that his country was against the proposal.

"The Libyan government has not been consulted by the European Union. They have left us in the dark about what their intentions are, what kind of military actions they are going to take in our territorial waters, so that is very worrying," he told the World Service's Newsday programme.

"We want to know... how they can distinguish between the fishers' boats and the traffickers' boats," he added.

[...]

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32686579

 

There is an instructive chart accompanying this report. I suspect though that there is a certain amount of double reporting, i.e. people requesting asylum first upon entering the Mediterranean EU countries, then again after making their way north in contravention of the Dublin agreements. But obviously not all applications are from folks crossing the Med either.

 

[Colin]

It is called White Man's Burden for a reason. It would be better if those advocates of an open shore policy actually put their Euros and their homes where their mouth is.

Hey since you guys discovered just about everything, I think it's about time we shift that burden to the Chinese, now to be known as the "Burden of 1421"

[BansheeOne]

There is an instructive chart accompanying this report. I suspect though that there is a certain amount of double reporting, i.e. people requesting asylum first upon entering the Mediterranean EU countries, then again after making their way north in contravention of the Dublin agreements. But obviously not all applications are from folks crossing the Med either.

 

That was underrated; I just found that half of all applications in Germany are from folks out of the West Balkans who never got on a boat. Last year there was a surge from Kosovo when the rumor spread there that you get automatic recognition and welfare here, which recently resulted in Kosovo being designated a "safe country of origin" (which means pretty much automatic rejection) along with Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the first quarter of this year, there were still about 21,100 applications by Kosovars, 6,300 by Albanians and 5,700 by Serbs as three out of the four top origins; Syrians made up 14,700 (many were actually imported by official humanitarian programs, though others take the Mediterranean route via Libya). After that, Afghanistan 3,100, Iraq 3,000, Macedonia 1,900, then the classical African stream again with 1,400 from Eritrea.

[carrierlost]

I vote for kicking Italy out of Schengen Agreement.

[BansheeOne]

EU to launch operation against Libya's migrant smugglers

 

By RAF CASERT 7 hours ago

 

BRUSSELS (AP) — The European Union will move ahead beginning next week on a plan to disrupt the business model of human traffickers in the Mediterranean Sea, diplomats said Friday.

 

Around 100,000 migrants have entered Europe so far this year, with some 2,000 dead or missing during their perilous quest to reach the continent. Dozens of boats are launched from lawless Libya each week, with Italy and Greece bearing the brunt of the surge.

 

Two diplomats from EU nations told The Associated Press the EU would start using ships, planes and drones for surveillance and intelligence-gathering on the traffickers but stay away from politically sensitive actions such as boarding or destroying smuggling boats, which are expected in later phases of the operation.

 

They spoke on condition of anonymity because the official decision was expected to come at Monday's meeting of EU foreign ministers in Brussels.

 

In the first phase of the plan, the EU boats and planes will only operate in international waters and skies and will be involved in rescue work if needed. But EU nations want to get as much of the full operation ready to go as soon as possible.

 

"The hope is that we can achieve the rest before September," one of the diplomats said.

 

The later phases of the EU anti-trafficking operation would require U.N. clearance and some consent from authorities in Libya to operate in national waters and territories.

 

Haste is necessary. Many more migrants from Africa and the Middle East are expected to arrive over the next three months — the summer high season for migrant departures.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/eu-launch-operation-against-libya-migrant-smugglers-112310881.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=tw

[Mr King]

Why do you Euros have to be so racist? They just want to do jobs Europeans wont do.

[Simon Tan]

That is what the Southern Europeans are for.

[Pavel Novak]

I vote for kicking Italy out of Schengen Agreement.

 

Just because Italy is located close to big threatening problem and its options are limited by norms beyond its own control (norms for refugees are international) we cannot just throw Italy under bus. However the uncontrolled immigration is really threat to societies and a way of preventing them to the Europe needs to be find.

[carrierlost]

 

I vote for kicking Italy out of Schengen Agreement.

 

Just because Italy is located close to big threatening problem and its options are limited by norms beyond its own control (norms for refugees are international) we cannot just throw Italy under bus. However the uncontrolled immigration is really threat to societies and a way of preventing them to the Europe needs to be find.

 

Well Spain and France don't seem to have a problem to keep their borders tight. As I understand Italian vessels have been picking up these ships/boats close to Libyan coast and transporting them majority of the way across Mediterranean to Italy instead of putting them ashore in Libya.

[bd1]

i thought he´s probably referring to the fact that apparently in some places the immigrants have become an industry, money that are involved bribing politicians, etc.

 

 

The documents explain how the mafia bribes officials to gain access to profitable public work contracts. According to Italian investigators, the mafia's network reached as far as into the mayor's office, where high-ranking officials were allegedly bribed with payouts of as much as $18,000 a pop. In return, mafia members won valuable contracts to manage the accommodation of refugees, the city's waste collection and even parks.

In an intercepted phone call, suspect Salvatore Buzzi was quoted saying that "drug trafficking earns less." Other evidence suggests that Rome's mafia has largely given up on trafficking in drugs and has instead embraced the more profitable "immigration business," according to investigators.

"We closed this year with turnover of [$50 million], but ... our profits all came from the gypsies, the housing emergency and the immigrants," Buzzi reportedly said in a phone call.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/12/04/for-romes-mafia-more-refugees-means-more-money/

Edited June 20, 2015 by bd1

[Simon Tan]

And yet every single one of these individuals has paid to get to Libya. Better to just draught them into the militia of General Haftar.

[swerve]

 

 

I vote for kicking Italy out of Schengen Agreement.

 

Just because Italy is located close to big threatening problem and its options are limited by norms beyond its own control (norms for refugees are international) we cannot just throw Italy under bus. However the uncontrolled immigration is really threat to societies and a way of preventing them to the Europe needs to be find.

 

Well Spain and France don't seem to have a problem to keep their borders tight. As I understand Italian vessels have been picking up these ships/boats close to Libyan coast and transporting them majority of the way across Mediterranean to Italy instead of putting them ashore in Libya.

 

Geography & the condition of the countries from which the boats are coming.

 

France is much further away from North Africa, too far for this sort of business to work. The nearest parts of North Africa to Spain have functioning governments that control their borders. Some people still get from Morocco to Spain by sea, but relatively few. The boats to Italy are almost all sailing from Libya, not Tunisia, although Tunisia is much closer. Why do you think that is?

 

Note that Greece, with very short sea crossings from Turkey to some of its Aegean islands, also has a problem with people landing from the sea, but despite the much, much shorter sea crossing, only about the same number as the Libya-Italy route. Again, why do you think that is?

[rmgill]

Greece doesn't haven an economy the North Africans feel they can make use of?

[carrierlost]

Yep that and it's really far from other desirable destinations. Plus you wont get the free cruise when picked up by Italians at Libyan territorial waters. If you are really lucky you get a free train ride to Germany as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332426/Italy-paid-African-migrants-500-leave-country--Germany.html

[swerve]

Nope.

 

You DO get a lift to Greek territory if you're picked up in international waters in the Aegean in distress - but you don't need it, because you go straight from Turkish to Greek territorial waters in the eastern Aegean. And once you're loose in Greece, it's not much different from being loose in Sicily: the local economy doesn't offer many chances, & you've got some travelling to do, but you're inside the EU, past the difficult borders, & can, if you have a bit of enterprise (which you have, or you wouldn't have got there) move on to Germany or wherever.

 

You don't think Sicily is the target for all those emigrants passing through Libya, do you? It's just a way station, like Greece. And I see that you ignored Tunisia. The trip from Tunisia to Sicily is much shorter than from Libya. Why far fewer migrants?

 

Because the Tunisians, like the Turks have their own country under better control. Turkey is the shortest route for most Syrian refugees, & Iraqis fleeing IS. Why do so many end up in Libya?

[BansheeOne]

These are rather spurious claims; I've certainly heard nothing of German participation as mentioned in the text. Which doesn't necessarily mean there is no such talk, just that it may be kept really close because it would be rather unpopular here; but a training mission wouldn't be to different from what is going on in Mali and Northern Iraq already.

 

Isis in Libya: British troops to be sent to north African country to combat militants advance

By Taku Dzimwasha

August 1, 2015 18:07 BST

British troops are set to be deployed to Libya as part of an international peacekeeping mission tasked with securing the country and to counter the threat from the Islamic State (Isis) in the North African country.

Military officials from the US, France, Spain and Germany will also join the mission to stabilise the country once the rival warring factions agree on forming a unity government.

The mission participants, known colloquially as the P3+5, are working together with the European Union and United Nations to "rebuild organs of the state and train security forces", according to The Times.

Military sources from Britain and Libya believe that a deal to form an inclusive unity government – which has proven illusive since the fall Muammar Gaddafi's regime in 2011 – appears to be close, The Times reported.

Once the inclusive government is confirmed, the P3+5 will seek a UN Security Council resolution to authorise intervention in Libya to train the local police, army and coastguard.

Special Forces from Britain, France and the US will also conduct counter-terrorism operations against the Libyan branch of Isis and other Islamist groups.

As part of the military operations, American and French airstrikes will be required, with British jets unlikely to participate because of the commitment to fight Isis in Iraq, a Whitehall source told The Times.

"You might see movement towards the end of August," the source said. "Things will then start to move very quickly."

The largest contingent of personnel is expected to come from Italy, which has a long-standing history with Libya dating back to the beginning of the last century.

The details of the mission were confirmed by an EU official and a Libyan government source, according to The Times.

"Some friendly countries have informed us there will be training of Libya security forces to combat Isis," the Libyan source said.

Isis has secured a foothold in war-ravaged Libya, infamously beheading of a group of 21 Coptic Christians on the beach in April.

In the video, which mirrors previous grisly Isis videos, the ringleader points his weapon towards to Mediterranean Sea and pledges that Isis will "conquer Rome".

The group has secured a stronghold in the central, coastal city of Sirte.

European officials are pushing to stabilise the country after recent high-profile incidents involving migrants coming from the Libya.

Lawlessness in the North African country has encouraged people traffickers to send thousands of migrants to Europe.

There are also concerns that Isis could send sleeper cells to the continent, with the aim of eventually attacking soft targets in Europe.

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-libya-british-troops-be-sent-north-african-country-combat-militants-advance-1513681

[Simon Tan]

Processing center in Sierra Leone.

[JasonJ]

Operations in Libya may help improve Tunisia's security as well.

[Simon Tan]

North Africa is again the first step in the Great Crusade.

[BansheeOne]

Libya Government Calls for Arab Airstrikes Against IS

TUNIS, Tunisia — Aug 16, 2015, 8:53 AM ET

By RAMI MUSA Associated Press

 

Libya's internationally recognized government appealed to Arab countries to carry out airstrikes against the local Islamic State affiliate which is expanding its hold on the coastal city of Sirte.

 

The statement late Saturday came after the IS affiliate seized control of a new neighborhood in Sirte. The militants shelled the area, killed a senior cleric and hung the bodies of prisoners over bridges.

 

"The Libyan government, unable to ward off these terrorist groups because of the arms embargo, and out of its historic responsibility toward its people, calls on brotherly Arab countries ... to launch airstrikes against specific targets of (IS) locations in Sirte in coordination with our concerned bodies," the statement said.

 

The government also condemned the failure of the international community to take action against the group's rise in Libya.

 

The Arab League said it will hold an emergency meeting on Libya on Tuesday.

 

Egypt has joined Libya's government in calls for international intervention there against IS. Egypt has carried out airstrikes inside Libya, including in February after Islamic State militants killed 21 Egyptian hostages there.

 

The IS affiliate posted pictures on social media showing booty it seized from the neighborhood in Sirte, including vehicles and ammunition.

Fighting began earlier this week after a rival Islamist group, backed by a local tribe, refused to pledge allegiance to IS and called for a revolt.

 

Residents fled as IS militants took over the area. Awad Salem, whose family remains in the city, said IS fighters seized homes, refusing to allow residents to return until they search them for weapons.

 

Libya has slid into chaos since the 2011 overthrow and killing of longtime dictator Moammar Gadhafi. It is now divided between an elected parliament and government in the east, and an Islamist militia-backed government based in Tripoli.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/libya-government-calls-arab-airstrikes-33113159

[Mistral]

Greece just seized a ship headed for Libya loaded with weapons and ammunition. Take one guess from where it left.

 

So far they found half a million 9mm rounds and 5.000 guns (I heard shotguns been mentioned) which is a strange load.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/02/libya-security-greece-arms-idUSL5N11818A20150902