Meanwhile, In Libya...

[bojan]

Will never happen. Did not happen in 1974, 1993-95, 2003, etc. won't happen now.

[Nobu]

I don't think an alliance eviction mechanism even exists. Turkey would have to withdraw on its own.

 

All things considered, a coup might be easier.

[bojan]

I don't think an alliance eviction mechanism even exists...

So if one member becomes stark raving mad it becomes a suicide cult?

[Dark_Falcon]

 

I don't think an alliance eviction mechanism even exists...

So if one member becomes stark raving mad it becomes a suicide cult?

 

At the rate the US is going we may find out the answer to that.

[Nobu]

All alliances are, to a degree. We must all hang together, etc.

 

I think Erdogan will be evicted long before Turkey is.

[Simon Tan]

Serbia be biased! Turk always allied with Germany!

[Mistral]

It seems someone has bombed an airbase last night in Libya near Tunisia, the Turks were building it up as a base of operations including a Hawk AA system. Turks issued a statement that equipment was attacked.

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/libya-unidentified-planes-bomb-al-watiya-airbase/1900486

 

A few days ago a Turkish convoy was filmed heading to that base.

 

https://libya.liveuamap.com/en/2020/2-july-libya-video-purportedly-of-turkish-forces-with-gna

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

I don't think an alliance eviction mechanism even exists...

 

So if one member becomes stark raving mad it becomes a suicide cult?

Remember 1914?

Edited July 5, 2020 by Stuart Galbraith

[bojan]

So NATO is that bad? Thank you.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Only when we are shooting Ostriches.

[Adam Peter]

LNA MiG-29 downed today. Pilot ejected 700 meters high, fell 300 meter from the plane. Source

 

[Daan]

What is the Russian pilot saying? Interesting that he filmed himself and that this recording was published on the internet.

Any idea what caused the aircraft to go down?

[Colin]

I am assuming he got rescued by his own side?

[Ssnake]

You can enable (automated) subtitles (Russian), and then set YouTube to give you automated translations.

[Adam Peter]

"roach on a rough stone hit the commission" - still needs a Navajo code talker.

 

Now the title says it is only a training exercise.

[bojan]

Serbian modular "Morava" MRL, sold to UAE in Libya, used by LNA:

[Yama]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:53 PM, Adam Peter said:

LNA MiG-29 downed today. Pilot ejected 700 meters high, fell 300 meter from the plane. Source

 

No MiG-29 were ever delivered to Libya. Did the journalist just make an error "it's a MiG, must be MiG-29" or have some been delivered for Haftar forces since?

Edited November 15, 2020 by Yama

[Adam Peter]

8 hours ago, Yama said:

No MiG-29 were ever delivered to Libya. Did the journalist just make an error "it's a MiG, must be MiG-29" or have some been delivered for Haftar forces since?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/2020/06/29/whos-flying-those-mig-29s-in-libya-and-why-does-it-matter/?sh=38bdd73544e4

https://theaviationist.com/2020/05/21/lets-talk-about-the-claim-that-russia-moved-six-mig-29s-and-two-su-24s-escorted-by-ruaf-su-35s-to-libya/

[BansheeOne]

Another naval EU-Turkey dust-up, this time involving a German ship. Frigate "Hamburg" was ordered to check on a Turkish ship off Libya under Operation IRINI, currently under Greek command. Per SOP, permission was requested from the flag state, and assumed as given after four hours of no reply. Per the Bundeswehr, the crew cooperated in a boarding by Sea Lynx and search of the ship, however Turkey subsequently denied permission, leading to the search being stopped but the boarding team staying on the ship until safe conditions for the helicopter ride back could be established the next morning. Afterwards Turkish media published some video from the ship's bridge that made interaction look not so cooperative. The Bundeswehr statement was kinda wishi-washi on details of what happened, just talking of an example for the dynamic development of such situations and soldiers relying on their training. The usual diplomatic bluster and "Turkey stronk!" talk on Twitter, of course. 

Quote

Turkey slams 'unauthorized' German search of Libya-bound ship

16 hours ago

Turkey has summoned the German envoy to Ankara in protest after German marines attempted to search a Libya-bound Turkish ship for weapons. Germany has said Turkey initially voiced no objection to the search.

A diplomatic spat erupted between Turkey and Germany on Monday after Ankara accused German troops of carrying out a search of a freighter as part of the EU's Irini mission to enforce the UN's Libya arms embargo.

The Turkish Foreign Ministry said it had summoned the envoys to Ankara of Germany, the EU and Italy to protest the "unauthorized" operation.

"We protest this action, which was conducted without authority and with the use of force," the ministry said.

Cooperative crew

A spokesman for Germany's Defense Ministry said that German marines had abseiled onto the vessel, the "Rosaline-A," from a helicopter after no response was received from Turkey to a request to carry out a search.

The spokesman said the decision to search the vessel had been taken by the Irini mission command in Rome. The search was ended when word came from Turkey that it refused permission, he said, adding that "no forbidden goods were detected" and that the crew had been cooperative.

Turkish officials said the "Rosaline-A" was transporting paint and humanitarian aid.

[...] 

https://www.dw.com/en/turkey-slams-unauthorized-german-search-of-libya-bound-ship/a-55703929

 

[Simon Tan]

That's embarassing.

[Daan]

What happens when the flag state denies a permit for search? No search and the ships sails on with whatever cargo is carried?

[RETAC21]

2 hours ago, Daan said:

What happens when the flag state denies a permit for search? No search and the ships sails on with whatever cargo is carried?

"There are very precise illegal acts that justify the right to resort to threat or use of force to board, search and, if justifiable, seizure of a ship under international law. These acts are regarded as exceptions of the exclusive jurisdiction of flag States and require no authorization from the flag State. Apart from the right of hot pursuit, UNCLOS 82, article 110 gives a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 and 96, the right to board if there is reasonable ground for suspecting that the ship is engaged in piracy, the slave trade, unauthorised broadcasting, without nationality, or is flying a false flag. However, it was realized by governments in the last century that the right to visit could be abused and that there must be reasonable grounds for suspicion, for example a refusal by a ship to hoist its flag14. Otherwise, in its comment the International Law Commission stated that the severe penalty ‘seems to be justified in order to prevent the right of visit being abused’15. This statement reflects how the doctrine of freedom of navigation is precious and States should be vigilant to it before taking any action."

page 9

https://commons.wmu.se/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1183&context=all_dissertations 

[BansheeOne]

There's an educating debate on this on German sites. UNSCR 2292 actually authorizes boarding ships suspected of smuggling arms to Libya after making a "good faith effort" of getting permission by the flag state; in theory states are of course required to cooperate with UN-mandated actions anyway. The EU has however decided on a stricter interpretation in its own mandate for IRINI, requiring at least no straight denial of permission. 

Quote

[...]

3) Decides, with a view to addressing the threat posed by unsecured arms and ammunitions in Libya and their proliferation, to AUTHORIZE, in these exceptional and specific circumstances for a period of 12 months from the date of this resolution Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations, with appropriate consultations with the GNA, in order to ensure STRICT IMPLEMENTATION of the arms embargo on Libya, to inspect, without undue delay, on the high seas off the coast of Libya, vessels bound to or from Libya which they have reasonable grounds to believe are carrying arms or related materiel to or from Libya, directly or indirectly, in violation of paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011), as modified by paragraph 13 of 2009 (2011), paragraphs 9 and 10 of 2095 (2013) and paragraph 8 of 2174 (2014), PROVIDED that those Member States make good-faith EFFORTS to first obtain the consent of the vessel’s flag State prior to any inspections pursuant to this paragraph, and calls upon all flag States of above-mentioned vessels to cooperate with such inspections;

[...] 

9) Affirms that the authorizations provided in this resolution apply only with respect to the smuggling of illegal arms and related materiel on the high seas off the coast of Libya and shall not affect the rights or obligations or responsibilities of Member States under international law, including any rights or obligations under UNCLOS, including the general principle of exclusive jurisdiction of a Flag State over its vessels on the high seas, with respect to any OTHER situation, [...] 

http://unscr.com/en/resolutions/doc/2292

[Daan]

So, in this case the flag state belatedly denied permission for a search while this was still in progress and therefore incomplete, resulting in the search being broken off. Hence, in practice the flag state decides whether its ships are to be searched or not, making the UNSCR a rather toothless vehicle. 

Moreover, in the real world it is completely clear which actors provide weaponry to the warring parties. The LNA released this video today, showing at 2:19 the two Su-24s that apparently had washed up on the coast several months ago. 😞

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Daan

[Ssnake]

No, a secret it is not.