Evaluating The Armies And Generals Of 1914

[Colin Williams]

Discussion focused on military performance through the opening battles and campaigns of WW1, looking at plans, doctrine, generals, and armies under the test of battle.

[Colin Williams]

Joffre - Joffre earns a split grade for the campaign culminating in the Battle of the Marne - C-/A-.

 

Even allowing for inadequate intelligence, his opening moves were reckless given the relative strength of the forces involved and the lack of maneuver space in the Ardennes and Lorraine (something French units needed to meet the Germans on relatively equal terms). However, his stable temperament in the face of near disaster and his almost flawless operational moves once he realized the true German threat make him the outstanding commanding general of 1914, hence the A- for the second part.

[T19]

Canada Military- F

We had no Navy to speak of in the opening days, we had no Airforce, and the Army was just better than a police force in 1914. Some experience from the Bore War, but very little above the Company Level

 

Canada Political - A

Canadians were determined to fight as a nation and not as replacement troops for the Imperial Army. The PM and the Minister of Defense were adamant on that part, at one point threatening to take the Canadian Ex Force home.

[Richard Lindquist]

Canada Military- F

We had no Navy to speak of in the opening days, we had no Airforce, and the Army was just better than a police force in 1914. Some experience from the Bore War, but very little above the Company Level

 

Canada Political - A

Canadians were determined to fight as a nation and not as replacement troops for the Imperial Army. The PM and the Minister of Defense were adamant on that part, at one point threatening to take the Canadian Ex Force home.

Same thing with the USA, we weren't about to just provide individual replacements for Douglas Haig's meat grinder.

[Archie Pellagio]

Given how most of the armies were mostly comprised of reservists and then shake and bake volunteers in a relatively short period, it was always going to be a bit of amateur hour once the initial professionals got surprised by what warfare had become then subsequently creamed.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Archie Pellagio

[Ken Estes]

If we are just discussing the OP, the field is not large. The old BA/BEF with Sir John French, the French Army & Joffre as Colin put it, the Germans under the Wrong Moltke [The Crown Prince did fairly well among the army commanders] with the Hindenburg/Ludendorff Team in the East [really Col Hoffman], the Rus, Austrians, and Serbians.

 

Notice how Hoffman represented the German Gen Staff system so well, whereas the infamous LtCol Hentsch spoiled 1st Marne and the overall campaign in the West proved too much for C&C regardless of the staff. Of course the handicap there was the Wrong Wilhelm and keeping him at Koblenz was wise, but further stretched the C&C breakdowns.

 

The French fought best with the worst O Plan and the Germans had the best plan [the only one that at least took note of the frontal firepower difficulty] but it was likely more than troops and horses could accomplish.

[ScottBrim]

..........

The French fought best with the worst O Plan and the Germans had the best plan [the only one that at least took note of the frontal firepower difficulty] but it was likely more than troops and horses could accomplish.

 

In other words, maneuver warfare also has to be mechanized warfare to some good extent before it can accomplish its goals.

 

At what point between 1918 and 1938 did enough mechanization occur for maneuver warfare to become sufficiently enabled operationally and logistically?

[Archie Pellagio]

The fundamentals of operational manoeuver are still predicated on the magical 200 mile number, whether it is on foot, horses and bicycles or tanks, APCs and trucks.

[BillB]

Canada Military- F

We had no Navy to speak of in the opening days, we had no Airforce, and the Army was just better than a police force in 1914. Some experience from the Bore War, but very little above the Company Level

 

Canada Political - A

Canadians were determined to fight as a nation and not as replacement troops for the Imperial Army. The PM and the Minister of Defense were adamant on that part, at one point threatening to take the Canadian Ex Force home.

Ref the second point, was that ever a serious proposal/possibility or is it a bit of nation-building straw manery?

 

BillB

[BillB]

 

Canada Military- F

We had no Navy to speak of in the opening days, we had no Airforce, and the Army was just better than a police force in 1914. Some experience from the Bore War, but very little above the Company Level

 

Canada Political - A

Canadians were determined to fight as a nation and not as replacement troops for the Imperial Army. The PM and the Minister of Defense were adamant on that part, at one point threatening to take the Canadian Ex Force home.

Same thing with the USA, we weren't about to just provide individual replacements for Douglas Haig's meat grinder.

 

Same question as I asked T19, was this ever a serious proposal/possibility. As for the rest Haig had the excuse of working his way through unforeseen and unprecedented circumstances so what was Pershing's excuse for putting his men through his own meatgrinder rather than looking and listening to three years of hard won operational experience?

 

BillB

[T19]

Bill B, its the reason Canada fought as a Corps and the rest of the Empire got slotted in. Canada delayed its declaration of war so that it did not look like an automatic affair... canada was starting to use its new Country muscles. We fought in S Africa as part of the Empires army... returning soldiers swore never to do that again. The other problem the Canadian Gov;t had to deal with is a pacifist Quebec, that did not want to fight in another Europe War.

 

So yes it was a very real threat, and Canada had its own ideas on how to conduct it, its why Hague let Canada take the lead on Vimy Ridge, and afterwards fought as a Corps.

 

but in 1914, we had only started to figure out how to be a Country in War, by 1918 we had it down pat...

[Adam_S]

On the subject of Canada in the Great War, there is an excellent series called "For King and Empire" which can be found on youtube.

Linky

[baboon6]

Bill B, its the reason Canada fought as a Corps and the rest of the Empire got slotted in. Canada delayed its declaration of war so that it did not look like an automatic affair... canada was starting to use its new Country muscles. We fought in S Africa as part of the Empires army... returning soldiers swore never to do that again. The other problem the Canadian Gov;t had to deal with is a pacifist Quebec, that did not want to fight in another Europe War.

 

So yes it was a very real threat, and Canada had its own ideas on how to conduct it, its why Hague let Canada take the lead on Vimy Ridge, and afterwards fought as a Corps.

 

but in 1914, we had only started to figure out how to be a Country in War, by 1918 we had it down pat...

 

The Australians and New Zealanders also had their own corps at Gallipoli, in France enlarged as new divisions formed and split into two...later the NZ Div came under the command of a British corps but the five Aussies divs were united as the Australian Corps.

[baboon6]

On the subject of Canada in the Great War, there is an excellent series called "For King and Empire" which can be found on youtube.

Linky

 

I watched it a few years ago, very much enjoyed it. The WW2 sequel "For King and Country" is also worth watching.

 

Busy re-watching the six-part series "Western Front" written and presented by the late Professor Richard Holmes:

 

Edited August 4, 2014 by baboon6

[JWB]

Professor Holmes is bitterly missed by me. His War Walks series was one of the finest doc series I have ever watched.

[MiloMorai]

http://tvo.org/program/204263/apocalypse-world-war-one

 

Since TV programming is being mentioned, this a new 5 part episode (colourized) well worth watching.

[JWB]

I wonder if that series will ever be aired over here?

[Harold Jones]

 

 

Canada Military- F

We had no Navy to speak of in the opening days, we had no Airforce, and the Army was just better than a police force in 1914. Some experience from the Bore War, but very little above the Company Level

 

Canada Political - A

Canadians were determined to fight as a nation and not as replacement troops for the Imperial Army. The PM and the Minister of Defense were adamant on that part, at one point threatening to take the Canadian Ex Force home.

Same thing with the USA, we weren't about to just provide individual replacements for Douglas Haig's meat grinder.

 

Same question as I asked T19, was this ever a serious proposal/possibility. As for the rest Haig had the excuse of working his way through unforeseen and unprecedented circumstances so what was Pershing's excuse for putting his men through his own meatgrinder rather than looking and listening to three years of hard won operational experience?

 

BillB

 

Yes there was such a proposal. Here's one example (the easiest one to quote from volume 3 http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/023/23-8/index.html ) I'll leave the question as to why the US High Command repeated many of the mistakes that the British and French had made to better minds.

 

Placing of Units of American Irifantry into Battalions or Brigades of British Irifantry

No.9

United States

troops with

the Brttish

Army.

o. 1/135/388

WAR CABINET 292

EXTRACT FROM MINUTES OF A MEETING OF TI-IE WAR CABINET

HELD AT 10, DOWNING STREET. S. W., ON WEDNESDAY, DEC.

5, 1917. at 11:30 a. m.

• • • • • •

3. The Chief of the Impertal General Staff reported

that the question of placing units of the United States

infantry into battalions or brtgades of Brttish infantry

had been cordially received by Colonel House, to whom

it had been referred by the Prtme Minister.

 

[Colin Williams]

Bill B, its the reason Canada fought as a Corps and the rest of the Empire got slotted in. Canada delayed its declaration of war so that it did not look like an automatic affair... canada was starting to use its new Country muscles. We fought in S Africa as part of the Empires army... returning soldiers swore never to do that again. The other problem the Canadian Gov;t had to deal with is a pacifist Quebec, that did not want to fight in another Europe War.

 

So yes it was a very real threat, and Canada had its own ideas on how to conduct it, its why Hague let Canada take the lead on Vimy Ridge, and afterwards fought as a Corps.

 

but in 1914, we had only started to figure out how to be a Country in War, by 1918 we had it down pat...

Classic problem for all the Dominions, but especially Canada, in WW1 and WW2. The minuscule professional officer corps was inadequate to provide the army with properly trained generals and higher level staff officers, yet the British demonstrated again and again a surprising ability to mishandle higher level formations.

[Colin Williams]

Field Marshal French - Marne Campaign - D; Ypres - C.

French was nearly a disaster in 1914, allowing his two corps to separate just before Le Cateau and retreating far behind the French units on either side during the retreat south of the Marne. Only Kitchener's intervention steeled his resolve enough to continue to fight rather than bolting for the Channel. When he did attack his exploitation of the gap between the German armies was slow. French does deserve some credit for fighting off the Germans at 1st Ypres, although there was little opportunity for army-level maneuver. It was mostly a matter of feeding battalions into the line until either the British gave way or the Germans stopped attacking.

[Michael Eastes]

I wonder if that series will ever be aired over here?

I DVRed the first two episodes from what used to be The Military Channel. I can't recall what they are calling themselves now, but they're up there in cable country around the Smithsonian and Nat Geo channels.

 

Regarding opening moves by armies, etc., I find myself feeling a good bit of disgust with the early performance of Sir John French, including some of his blaming behaviour in his memoir on the 1914 campaigns. BEF Corps commanders Smith-Dorrien and Haig come off considerably better; then again, they had the only real professional army in the mix, for as long as it lasted. By Nov./Dec. 1914, those professionals were pretty much used up.

 

The Russians on the northern front were beset with misfortune, from even worse logistics than just about anyone else, to commanders who could not work together. Of course, quarreling among senior military and civil leaders was hardly limited to Samsonov and Rennenkampf, or to WWI. It seems to be an ongoing theme in warfare, and the human condition, for that matter. I'm not yet well-read enough on the Austro-Hungarian portion of the war to have an opinion on either side's activities.

 

Joffre came off looking like a hero after the Marne, but he had a lot of help from Gallienni and the troops that he put together in and around Paris. All of this worked out largely, IMO, because of von Kluck's impatience, von Bulow's caution, and the very poor decision-making of LTC Hentsch of the General Staff, as Ken noted above. Hard to believe that Hentsch and Hoffmann shared the same system of training; this is easy for me to say, with the benefit of 100 years of hindsight and dissection of their actions by historians. One person who strikes me as deserving a better review by historians is Lanrezac, the 5th Army commander under Joffre. Yes, he was argumentative and curmudgeonly, but he seems to have done pretty well keeping his army together and fighting in some very hard conditions. Joffre fired an awful lot of general officers, but I wonder if Lanrezac really deserved it.

 

The Germans, especially the right flank armies on the Western Front, put in some marching that is hard to contemplate in peacetime, never mind in combat. The same could be said of the BEF. I am the first to admit that they were better men than I.

 

It is late, and the above is overly brief and probably short on facts. I need to go read more, before I post more.

[MiloMorai]

I wonder if that series will ever be aired over here?

 

First broadcast on French TV : France 2, 2014

 

The episodes can be viewed from the link.

 

This is the first one,

http://tvo.org/video/205436/ep-1-fury

[JWB]

 

I wonder if that series will ever be aired over here?

 

First broadcast on French TV : France 2, 2014

 

The episodes can be viewed from the link.

 

This is the first one,

http://tvo.org/video/205436/ep-1-fury

 

We're sorry, the video you're trying to watch cannot be viewed from your current geographic location due to rights restrictions.

[Corinthian]

I hate those kinds of restrictions websites have. So much for the internet.

[Ray C]

I wonder if that series will ever be aired over here?

 

"American Heroes Channel", two episodes this coming Monday night