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X-files ;

 

The problem is that no ne has posted some "You were given US and Chinese figures for a substantial military leap forward" - all that were posted were the imaginary Pentagon figures which did not clarify basic manpower figures (almost all for internal security/repression, and did NOT show any huge increase in military capability (despite the two decades of military build up.

 

IF you believe all those threat warnings, then PLEASE post all the huge increases in military hardware.

 

As for your idea that you can wipe out the Monroe Doctrine (and all the meddling in South America) by thinking it is a personal foible -- that merely shows how unable you are to face historical truths.

 

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As for your idea that you can wipe out the Monroe Doctrine (and all the meddling in South America) by thinking it is a personal foible -- that merely shows how unable you are to face historical truths.

 

My country has de-emphasized meddling in South America.

 

We interfere in many, many other interesting places these days.

 

But we still reserve the right to "meddle" in South America. You gotta have a sense of tradition, after all.

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X-files ;

 

The problem is that no ne has posted some "You were given US and Chinese figures for a substantial military leap forward" - all that were posted were the imaginary Pentagon figures which did not clarify basic manpower figures (almost all for internal security/repression, and did NOT show any huge increase in military capability (despite the two decades of military build up.

 

IF you believe all those threat warnings, then PLEASE post all the huge increases in military hardware.

 

As for your idea that you can wipe out the Monroe Doctrine (and all the meddling in South America) by thinking it is a personal foible -- that merely shows how unable you are to face historical truths.

 

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Edited by Mr King
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What should be said is that Russian aggression exacerbated by Medvedev's rudeness regarding the Northern Territories in 2008 were considered an insult to Japan, which left the Japanese government spluttering in rage.

 

It also was a wake-up call to the Japanese government, that the key to the successful resolution of territorial disputes such as the Northern Territories, Takeshima, and Senkaku, is possession, backed by strength.

 

Now, in 2014, it is the Chinese who must contend with possession of Senkaku backed by strength, and it is the Chinese who are feeling the same rage that Japan felt in 2008 when faced with Russian possession of disputed territory, backed by strength.

 

The PRC's claim on Senkaku is not as worrisome as Taiwan's claim.

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It was actually around 2010/11 that Japan was severely rebuffed by Medvedev and Russia regarding the Northern Territories, not 2008. It seemed longer ago to my mind.

 

When the Japanese Foreign Ministry uses phrases such as "inexcusable rudeness" and "unforgivable outrage" regarding Medvedev, it is really something, as the Japanese government prefers to express its sentiments in more nuanced ways.

 

I believe the rage directed toward Russia at that time was real, as it was based on the helplessness of not having possession and not having the strength to change the status quo. Medvedev's repeated visits and subsequent orders to militarize the Northern Territories, while at the same time declaring for the record that Japanese rage was unimportant to him or Russia, exacerbated the situation, which included the recall of the Japanese ambassador to Russia.

 

This cycle of Russian provocation and increasing Japanese rage continued for years.

 

Unfortunately for the Chinese, the Japanese Foreign Ministry are also fast learners.

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It was actually around 2010/11 that Japan was severely rebuffed by Medvedev and Russia regarding the Northern Territories, not 2008. It seemed longer ago to my mind.

 

When the Japanese Foreign Ministry uses phrases such as "inexcusable rudeness" and "unforgivable outrage" regarding Medvedev, it is really something, as the Japanese government prefers to express its sentiments in more nuanced ways.

 

I believe the rage directed toward Russia at that time was real, as it was based on the helplessness of not having possession and not having the strength to change the status quo. Medvedev's repeated visits and subsequent orders to militarize the Northern Territories, while at the same time declaring for the record that Japanese rage was unimportant to him or Russia, exacerbated the situation, which included the recall of the Japanese ambassador to Russia.

 

This cycle of Russian provocation and increasing Japanese rage continued for years.

 

Unfortunately for the Chinese, the Japanese Foreign Ministry are also fast learners.

 

Russia sticks it to Japan, and Japan sticks it to China.

 

Nice.

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And two weeks ago, China confirmed the existence of the long-rumored Dongfeng-41A next-generation intercontinental ballistic missile, which can supposedly carry up to ten nuclear warheads a distance of 12,000 kilometers.

Multi-warhead missiles were banned under a 1993 arms reduction treaty between Russia and the U.S. that Russia later annulled. The treaty only applied to those two countries, and even then, it lasted for less than a decade.

But the logic that convinced the world's leading nuclear powers to eschew the very type of missile that China is developing still applies.

 

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So China is only 44 years behind the USA in developing MIRVs and still only has a small number of nuclear missiles - is this something to panic about ?

 

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You are adorable, but no one (other than you) is panicking. You ask a question, get hogtied and left wiggling facedown in the mud with facts you don't like, then project some more of your own frothy fears with another tapdance routine. Tee hee.

 

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Back to adult conversations.

 

The annual White Paper, released after Cabinet approval, said Japan is particularly concerned about China’s establishment of an Air Defence Identification Zone that includes disputed East China Sea islands that both countries claim.

Japan scrambled jets in response to Chinese military flights 400 times last year, up from about 300 a year earlier. The zone is China’s attempt to unilaterally change the status quo, escalate the situation and may cause unintended consequences in the East China Sea, the report said. “Japan is strongly concerned,” it said.

The 429-page White Paper also said North Korea has improved long-range ballistic missile capability and miniaturisation of nuclear warheads, and could develop a sense of confidence over its strategic deterrence against the United States, leading to an escalation of military provocations by North Korea in the region.

Japan’s defence budget grew 2.2 per cent to ¥4.8 trillion (S$58.3 billion) for fiscal 2014 from the previous year — a second year of increase in a row since Mr Abe took office, after more than a decade of decline to as low as ¥4.6 trillion in 2012, down 6 per cent from 2002.

 

 

http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/china-top-worry-japan-defence-report

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So China is only 44 years behind the USA in developing MIRVs and still only has a small number of nuclear missiles - is this something to panic about ?

 

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You are adorable, but no one (other than you) is panicking. You ask a question, get hogtied and left wiggling facedown in the mud with facts you don't like, then project some more of your own frothy fears with another tapdance routine. Tee hee.

 

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Back to adult conversations the play pen.

 

The annual White Paper, released after Cabinet approval, said Japan is particularly concerned about China’s establishment of an Air Defence Identification Zone that includes disputed East China Sea islands that both countries claim.

Japan scrambled jets in response to Chinese military flights 400 times last year, up from about 300 a year earlier. The zone is China’s attempt to unilaterally change the status quo, escalate the situation and may cause unintended consequences in the East China Sea, the report said. “Japan is strongly concerned,” it said.

The 429-page White Paper also said North Korea has improved long-range ballistic missile capability and miniaturisation of nuclear warheads, and could develop a sense of confidence over its strategic deterrence against the United States, leading to an escalation of military provocations by North Korea in the region.

Japan’s defence budget grew 2.2 per cent to ¥4.8 trillion (S$58.3 billion) for fiscal 2014 from the previous year — a second year of increase in a row since Mr Abe took office, after more than a decade of decline to as low as ¥4.6 trillion in 2012, down 6 per cent from 2002.

 

 

http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/china-top-worry-japan-defence-report

 

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There, fixed it for you.

 

Claims of imaginary victories really deserve to be in the nursery.

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So China is only 44 years behind the USA in developing MIRVs and still only has a small number of nuclear missiles - is this something to panic about ?

 

.

 

You are adorable, but no one (other than you) is panicking. You ask a question, get hogtied and left wiggling facedown in the mud with facts you don't like, then project some more of your own frothy fears with another tapdance routine. Tee hee.

 

*

Back to adult conversations the play pen.

 

The annual White Paper, released after Cabinet approval, said Japan is particularly concerned about China’s establishment of an Air Defence Identification Zone that includes disputed East China Sea islands that both countries claim.

Japan scrambled jets in response to Chinese military flights 400 times last year, up from about 300 a year earlier. The zone is China’s attempt to unilaterally change the status quo, escalate the situation and may cause unintended consequences in the East China Sea, the report said. “Japan is strongly concerned,” it said.

The 429-page White Paper also said North Korea has improved long-range ballistic missile capability and miniaturisation of nuclear warheads, and could develop a sense of confidence over its strategic deterrence against the United States, leading to an escalation of military provocations by North Korea in the region.

Japan’s defence budget grew 2.2 per cent to ¥4.8 trillion (S$58.3 billion) for fiscal 2014 from the previous year — a second year of increase in a row since Mr Abe took office, after more than a decade of decline to as low as ¥4.6 trillion in 2012, down 6 per cent from 2002.

 

 

http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/china-top-worry-japan-defence-report

 

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There, fixed it for you.

 

Claims of imaginary victories really deserve to be in the nursery.

 

 

Why do you keep coming back to the play pen? The adult conversation is over there -_-

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Washington considering lifting the old weapons embargo on Vietnam.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/17/world/asia/in-chinas-shadow-us-courts-old-foe-vietnam.html?_r=0

 

An open letter from 61 senior party members of Vietnam call for a tougher stance on China and a shift towards a more open, democratic government.

 

http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2014/08/14/is-vietnam-spinning-out-of-chinas-orbit/

 

http://online.thatsmags.com/post/vietnam-leaders-call-on-their-government-to-get-tough-with-china

Edited by JasonJ
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The Korean reaction to last week's foreign ministry White Paper affirming Japan's ownership of Takeshima is to be expected, a joint South Korean/North Korean good cop/bad cop concert in support of what essentially are squatters' rights.

 

As for the North Vietnamese Politburo's call for a "shift" to a more democratic system of governance, perhaps they should have thought of this sooner.

Edited by Nobu
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The obvious conclusion would be for China, Russia and North Korea to come together in a new Cold War situation. As I have always maintained, Russia is the more dangerous of the non-western powers that few pay attention to while they're busy minding China. Russia is the dog that doesn't bark, whereas China's got a bark much worse than its bite.

 

http://www.dw.de/china-russia-launch-largest-ever-joint-military-exercise/a-16931106

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For preserving CCP rule yes. For China's economy, certainly not.

 

Edit: For amount of Russia attention, the Kiev is burning thread and the Putin thread shows plenty of attention. Wargaming has also boosted much attention towards Russia.

Edited by JasonJ
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The deniers in office are a problem.

They are, but to imply that after official remilitarization the Japanese will go on a rampage in the region again, 1930s/40s style, is just plain stupid.

 

Such forums are a means of sharing opinions even though in the end we inevitably agree to disagree.

 

There's no need to use strong words to flaunt your ignorance. I don't know zip about Poland or wherever it is that you come from, so it is OK for you not to be able to understand Asia. You don't need to rush to prove anything.

 

We can't change the world with what is being said in these forums so chill out and relax.

 

You will learn more when you try to understand why people think a certain way - in this case, over a billion Chinese people and Koreans - about Japan. It is NOT about Diaoyu. Diaoyu is the symptom not the cause of bad relations between China and Japan.

 

Other than the nationalistic Chinese, most like me don't care if Diaoyu gets sunk or is turned into a Disneyland.

 

What we are uncomfortable with is how a historically very warlike culture is very reverting towards militarism again. If you understand the root of Japanese culture - beyond the courteous bowing and cute anime - you will see why militarism is and will always be a deeply-rooted part of Japanese culture.

 

To say that such a caution is "stupid" is like saying a former crack addict will forever never go back to the pipe. They didn't just invade a few countries, they actually murdered and tortured people en masse for sport. Save for a few colonials and POWs, the western people never lived under IJA occupation so there is no collective dread of Japanese gone mad.

 

And whether or not they will again go on a rampage is too simplistic a way of looking at the concern.

 

Many people make comparison of Japan post WW2 with Germany post WW2 and wonder why Chinese people are so resentful of the Japs and why they can't get over WW2 70 yrs later etc. But the Germans admitted the wrongdoings. So we welcome Germany with open arms and they can do whatever they please and their neighbours would not worry. And Germany is the better for it as a nation and a people.

 

Why can't the Japs do it? Why is it so difficult? Can you explain why?

 

Yes, there were instances when certain Japanese governments apologised and admitted WW2 attrocities. But this changes with different governments. The recent governments and especially the current one, is from the other camp.

 

The world - and not just the victim nations of Japanese agression - has a responsibility to help Japan move forward in the right direction by recognizing their past mistakes. Otherwise you must never trust their intentions.

 

The degree of Japan's denial is such that many government top officials, insists - among other things - that Japan was FORCED to invade China (and start WW2). Also that Japan never committed massacres and other atrocities and that these accusations are false. Abe praised a recent movie glorifying WW2 Kamikaze pilots etc. Looked at innocently, there's nothing to it. But when this guy and previous Jap Prime Ministers all pay respects to IJA War criminals while nutjobs wave flags parade in IJA uniforms outside the shrine in a massive annual expression of extremism, you can't look at it innocently.

 

 

Beyond the war denial, there is a simple reason why Japan should NOT revise the pacifist constitution:

 

Even as a "pacifist"nation, Japan is already VERY VERY well armed, thanks to a generous USA and also since 1960's Japan has the most sophisticated arms-building capability in Asia, bar none. It is probably better armed than Poland. What more do they want? Nuclear bomb? Will west allow it if they exploit the China card further?

 

China's threat to Japan is overblown, as many Japanese including former government leaders say. Diaoyu is a little deserted island FAR away from the Japan mainland, do not fall into the mindset that this equates Chinese invasion of Japan. China didn't even dare touch little weak Taiwan that's so near to its shore. Threaten Japan? C'mon... wake up.

 

The fact that many Japanese - unlike people like us who only reads what the media wants us to read - opposes re-militarization, should give you pause for thought. But as usual, the neutral people are the silent majority, and the extremists, are the vocal minority.

 

But I blame China for its clumsiness in letting a crafty Japan turn Diaoyu into a reason for re-militarization in the blink of an eye. Even though China's threat is empty, this little squabble over a few deserted islands is expertly played up as a fight for life and death. This is not even the Falklands, where there are civilans and an actual invasion involved. If you can't see China/Diaoyu being used as a pretext here, I blame your western ignorance. "Pretextes" are used all the time for all kinds of reasons by all kinds of governments. We must always look at things at the core and brush aside the fanfare. China is being drummed up as a over-blown threat to distract from the fact that Japan wants to re-militarise.

 

The world doesn't need a militarily unbridled Japan to counter China. Japan is already militarily strong enough and US as a outside power was doing that job perfectly without raising too much hell. Because there isn't the bad blood between the two. For there to be peace in Asia, there can only be one dominant force and that - like it or not - will never be Japan. But japan challenging China openly will be bad for everyone, including the Japanese.

Edited by chino
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Good news.

 

 

That's like giving them a stick to poke a bear. You actually think that people in the SCS will gang up to fight China? Really? : ))

 

But China will be impotent to retaliate against the US, that's what I hate about China. Always barking, no bite.

Edited by chino
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For preserving CCP rule yes. For China's economy, certainly not.

 

Edit: For amount of Russia attention, the Kiev is burning thread and the Putin thread shows plenty of attention. Wargaming has also boosted much attention towards Russia.

No, not talking about tanknet.

 

I am referring to the Asia Pacific theater as a whole.

 

Russia already holds Japanese-claimed northern territories, if there's a real threat to Japan mainland itself, it is not China. But Japan rightly concludes that China is the more easy threat to drum up for international, and most importantly, domestic consumption.

 

If Abe goes for re-militarization of Japan by playing the Russian threat up, he may have faced ridicule. Even though Russia is the real threat. Whereas in using China, he faced nearly no opposition worhty of speaking. It's like...history aside, aren't these Chinese the same guys grabbing at the SCS?

 

But Abe engineered the whole Diaoyu scale up of tension and played China like a fiddle. I praise his cunning. This is a man to watch out for.

Edited by chino
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I think this is the most important question that you asked:

Many people make comparison of Japan post WW2 with Germany post WW2 and wonder why Chinese people are so resentful of the Japs and why they can't get over WW2 70 yrs later etc. But the Germans admitted the wrongdoings. So we welcome Germany with open arms and they can do whatever they please and their neighbours would not worry. And Germany is the better for it as a nation and a people.

 

Why can't the Japs do it? Why is it so difficult? Can you explain why?

 

Culture of shame vs culture of guilt? Can you show me an example of East Asian/South East Asian country admitting the atrocities they committed? In a Western culture it's more common to admit guilt and apologize for ones mistakes, keeping them under wraps is more characteristic about East Asia.

 

Has the mainland apologized for invading Korea and Vietnam? Or even for Mao, who killed tens of millions of his OWN people?

 

You know, all this thing with 'losing face'...

 

And really, can you imagine Japanese forces landing in China and setting up some Manchukuo 2? Honestly, PRC is a nuclear power, has the biggest military on Earth, and is ten times more populous than Japan, which in addition is struggling with her rapidly aging population. You can say the same 'no bite' thing about them, they didn't move on Takeshima or Northern Territories occupied by Russia, the only thing they did in last 70 years was ... claiming ownership of the islands that were already theirs anyway.

 

About the Russian threat to the West, including Japan, it's a short term one, PRC is long term. Russian military capabilities will likely stay as they are or even decline, all that they do is nothing compared to massive Chinese military buildup. Don't only look at today, what happens 10/20/30 years down the road is important too.

 

Oh and yes, Japan is much better armed than Poland, given they have 3+ times more population, 6+ times nominal GDP as well as their technological prowess, it's no surprise. But there are paralells, like alliance with the US (though we still try to secure permanent US mil presence here, the Japanese already have it), being the militarily and economically strongest US ally in our respective regions, as well as issues with aggressive states nearby - we 'share' Russia in this regard, the Japanese also have PRC.

 

Revising Article 9 still makes sense though, for things like helping your ally when attacked. More involvement in world matters is something expected by much of the international community, of course bar Russia, bigger China and both Koreas.

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For preserving CCP rule yes. For China's economy, certainly not.

 

Edit: For amount of Russia attention, the Kiev is burning thread and the Putin thread shows plenty of attention. Wargaming has also boosted much attention towards Russia.

No, not talking about tanknet.

 

I am referring to the Asia Pacific theater as a whole.

 

Russia already holds Japanese-claimed northern territories, if there's a real threat to Japan mainland itself, it is not China. But Japan rightly concludes that China is the more easy threat to drum up for international, and most importantly, domestic consumption.

 

If Abe goes for re-militarization of Japan by playing the Russian threat up, he may have faced ridicule. Even though Russia is the real threat. Whereas in using China, he faced nearly no opposition worhty of speaking. It's like...history aside, aren't these Chinese the same guys grabbing at the SCS?

 

But Abe engineered the whole Diaoyu scale up of tension and played China like a fiddle. I praise his cunning. This is a man to watch out for.

 

Of course, he would be ridiculed if he played Russian threat which in itself is marginal for Japan, but the Japanese are not the only ones concerned by massive Chinese military buildup coupled with territorial claims. It's not like everyone from Vietnam to Japan is hysteric, their fears are far from baseless.

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Even as a "pacifist"nation, Japan is already VERY VERY well armed, thanks to a generous USA

What generous USA? Japan not only pays for its own armed forces, & every piece of equipment it buys from the USA (but it makes most itself), but it helps pay for US forces stationed in Japan.

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