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One similarity I have with firefly1 is that I am not a CCP supporter.

 

But I can't help but feel defensive when most westerners are almost rabid with hate for China. C'mon admit it, don't make excuses like I only hate the CCP etc... You hate China and Chinese people. We know. And they probably deserve or "earned" much of the hate. But so much of this negative image is also undeserved.

 

China, is a PR disaster - so much for Communists being good at propaganda... They have no clue how to groom their own image. To go into a list of US bad deeds vs China bad deeds would be pedantic but you can see with your own eyes - if you choose to - that the US can literally get away with murder. While China stupidly has a loud bark but a very weak bite and has bitten far less times than... well many others. Yet it is deemed the biggest threat globally etc.

 

Apart from SCS, China's other major PR disaster is the continued subjugation of a quaint and vastly-popular culture like Tibet. The Chinese surely must understand that a people as fanatically religious as the Tibetans can never be completely subjugated. They should really work with the Dalai Lamma rather than to vilify him. When he dies, the next exiled Tibetan leader would not be as prepared to come to a peaceful solution. Already, the Tibetans seemed prepared to accept some kind of Chinese governance, but why introduce rampant Chinese settlement of these places?

 

The same goes for Xinjiang, which is an even bigger time bomb.

 

But even there in Tibet, their oppression nowhere near brutal, murderous and utterly destructive as the US' occupation of Iraq. They're not saints since make no mistake this is a forced military subjugation. But nowhere near as murderous even after large scale interracial riots/massacres etc. But they can't get away with it like the media-savvy US can. OK, I just broke my own promise not to go into a US vs China item by item discussion.

 

WRT Jason's constantly saying that China has no "basic freedoms"... I don't know what to say. I have a very selfish POV but I actually am very happy that freedoms are curtailed. If you've lived here long enough, maybe you'll understand, maybe not... I don't know. But if China becomes a democracy like India, with freedoms of all kinds granted... the country may become unlivable. Every country has trouble makers but with the huge population of China, even if a small percentage go out of control, it would be on a massive scale.

 

There are some points here I like to make comparing China to India. China isn't fragmented and divided along as many lines - racial, language, wealth, religious, geographical, castes - like India. Rioting by Tamils in the south will be ignored or even suppressed by Hindi-speakers of the north, as a clumsy example. In China, everyone speaks the same language, have no religious affiliations (in general) and even the poorest have access to a mobile phone and the internet. The only obvious division is the wealth of a minority vs the middle class or poor majority. So a little spark of an idea - like the same one of 1989 - can spread like wildfire across the entire China. And a Chinese rabble are as easy to rouse as any other cultures.

 

Freedom is wayy... overrated and I hate how the West keep using it as a stick to beat the Chinese. Many of you know about the control and corruption etc that occurs in China and therefore feels the CCP should be ousted etc.

 

China has NEVER once, in its history been a nation of freedoms. China today is more free than it has ever been in its long history. You'd be fooling yourself to think that the people here are suffering under a despotic regime and are ready to overthrow the government etc. People aren't killed off or spirited away to labour camps by their thousands etc. If you don't raise the ire of the regime you can live very comfortably, holiday in France and even buy a Maserati or two.

 

But another country, which has a very distinct and discriminating class system, where slavery of the poorest is standard, and women get burnt alive daily, deadly rapes are an epidemic and generally very high crime rates, a hopeless police force, unimaginable scale of corruption, child prostitution commonplace, high infant mortality, high illiteracy.... is well-liked and supported by the West. Simply because it has a "democratic" system.

 

Of course I'm talking about India.

 

India's democracy is not a true democracy like you find in Taiwan, Korea and Japan. (Oh btw Taiwan is an indisputable part of China, historically, geographically, culturally etc.) At best, democracy in India is for those who can afford it. For the 90% of the country that lives in rural areas or in poverty, their votes are given to whomever wields the biggest stick to beat them, or whomever gives more cash incentives at the voting stations. Either way they lose. Their's is a battle at subsistence level, why talk about political freedom when you have to sell your daughter off so the son can eat for another week?

 

But I'll stop myself from saying that what they need is a good dictatorship, because even that can also go either way.

 

I can't think of an alternative government type that would suit China. The Western saying "If it ain't broke..." truly applies here. No matter how much freedoms a "democracy" like India offers, I really, really, really wouldn't want to be a Indian citizen. Especially after I have seen and experienced what a "no freedoms" country like China can offer.

 

It's not just because I am more well-off than the average Chinese that I say this. Even if I was a poor farmer, I would rather be a poor farmer in China than India or any other so-called democracies you find in Asia. There are poor people everywhere including the West and the poor inadvertently gets screwed over. But at least in a so-called no freedom country like China, the poor are more free than those living in indentured slavery in India. And the poor in China very often fought back, and are still around to talk about it.

 

Thank you for taking the time to write that.

 

To be clear on myself, I don't hate China. I feel frustrated with their clumsy international policies. Very frustrated. I want to see a peaceful co-existing and prosperous East Asia. A region back to the 3 core cultures of China, Korea, and Japan with a modern dynamic. Why?? no idea. Well I do have an idea why but to keep it short, it just feels right and I care about what is right and about this particular region. So the frustrations I have may sometimes appear as hate. It is not hate. I sincerely do hope for the best for China, which is also the best for Korea and Japan. South Korea and Japan have faults too. A quick one I'll throw out is Takeshima. It should be returned to South Korea as a sincere and symbolic meaning that Japan truly wants to move past the age of imperialism with respect to Korea. But it has dragged on for so long and now South Korea is "illegally" occupying it which makes any return impossible in the mid-term. Its the wrong way to convince Japan to return it to South Korea. And it has totally killed the Korean wave of music, TV, fashion, that was flowing through Japan. The music wave was so great that it still managed to linger quite awhile despite the stupid island. Anyway..

 

So China can do what they want internally, but if we are talking about which country is best suited as a hegemonic power, the US with its multicultural and freedom is most suitable. That does demand responsibility and dedication. The US is not without its issues. Iraq was a disaster. That does take points away from the US as the preferred hegemonic power. I'll get back to this point. Pardon my incoherence.

 

About the freedom as overrated, for me personally, I do value it. I really like to be able to research what I want, make decisions about what I want, say whatever I want, doubt what I want, question anything I want, and criticize whatever I want. I care about truths. The actual facts and all the facts of a giving topic. The pursuit to this knowledge gaining and rhetorical speaking skill requires freedom. It is wonderful thing for a person to exercise these things and to go on improving themselves more and more in their life time. It truly elevates the person to great character. Hiding facts, lies, dishonesty, and so on, impede that progress.

 

So next is where I can concede some ground to you Chino and for China's way. Looking at America, I don't see a majority of people willing to use the freedoms to the maximum potential. Much of it is wasted or perverted. The freedom is such a great thing that using it appropriately seems too difficult for many people since the freedom also has whispers of temptations in detrimental and unproductive behavior. A little too pessimistic perhaps on my part. On the other side, I think some people are more comfortable with limits and boundaries on the society their reside in. I felt that maybe you were like this and thus feel ok with limited freedoms at least with the way it is in China. So now I know :) And such limited freedoms may offer some things not possible in a free society. I can imagine it. (Just had a minor earthquake tremor).

 

So then comes a connection that I sometimes allude to I think. Could PRC's limitations on freedom be directly linked to the clumsy international policies? I do not know, but I feel it may be the case. With limited knowledge and limitations in what a person can say or do makes the person easier to control and more gullible but also requires more maintenance. In order for the government to maintain its image of consistency, of cohesion, and of legitimacy, it will have to either cover up or carry out actions that cause trouble in other areas. For example, If China builds up the anti-Japanese propaganda strictly for internal consumption, and then if Japan does something, then China will have to respond to Japan in a way that upholds its internal propaganda. If the PRC does not respond in the way that its propaganda would imply, then its propaganda loses credibility and thus, the PRC government's words loses credibility. Or is this analysis flawed somewhere?

 

Going back to the US, on the point on phony "democracies". Its a well made point. Iraq was grossly underestimated or it had different purpose totally hidden that had no care for Iraq's future. Both cases I disagree with. Even back in 2003, I had my suspicions about the whole Iraq thing, as ignorant as I was. Something just didn't seem right. Afghanistan was ok and I could still support its decision despite its outcome. I have pointed out before sometime ago about the growth of South Korea in the 1960s. They had a flimsy democracy but it couldn't get much done. Park overthrew it and put in place his dictatorship-like power and started the rapid build up of South Korea's economy. For 3rd world countries, democracy, for the most part, just can't function it seems. But at some point, when a country enters into 1st world status, democracy is probably required. South Korea successfully made that transition. With that came new freedoms into history and what not. It is what caused the comfort women issue to surface after so long. Simply said, and if I am getting this right, the South Korea government suppressed freedom of information so that such information couldn't disrupt the economy build-up. So the comfort women issue couldn't surface during the 50s to 80s.

 

Well anyway, to sum up, if PRC did not have such clumsy foreign policies, I would have more confidence in China's way in internal affairs. I see PRC's clumsy foreign policies as the biggest cause to the raise in tensions in the region and to Japan reinterpreting its constitution. The escalations need to tone down, ASAP if possible. That requires China dropping the SCS and Senkaku claims. They can continue the military modernization part. I'm not arguing about that part. They deserve a military fitting for their size. Can the SCS and Senkaku claim be dropped without losing face with its own population? The US government can endure such embarrassments. It is flexible. Can the PRC government? Does the lack of freedom also mean a lack of flexibility?

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It almost sounds as if you were afraid that the Chinese are somehow 'worse' than Japanese or (South) Koreans, who do just fine with democracy despite never experiencing it before 1940s and 1980s (in practice 1990s) respectively. Culturally the Chinese are much closer to Japanese or Koreans than to Indians, aren't they? And just over the straits you have a Republic of CHINA, first a part of the mainland (no democracy), than a Japanese colony (no democracy) and later a separate dictatorship (no democracy), that had undergone a successful democratisation not so long ago. In the near future they may even democratically decide that they are first and foremost Taiwanese (a matter of time IMHO).

 

The number of population as an argument? Sorry, I'm not buying it.

 

Japan is a highly disciplined society. It has an Emperor that is almost a God.

 

Please come to live in China and experience grown men pushing your 4 yr-old child out of the way as they rush into a train. It happened to me just over the weekend in a countryside railway station. Or people rioting inside a closed up airplane because air-traffic control delays the flight. Again, both are personal experiences, but you can find plenty more examples on Youtube.

 

What you buy or don't buy is irrelevant because you don't live here in China. And that's the whole point of why people shouldn't be making judgement from afar about something they haven't personally experienced nor understand.

 

When the majority 90% of China's population - who lives in 2nd , 3rd tier cities, towns or villages - become more mature and civil, then the country is ready for democracy. I would say at least another 10 years for the new generations to grow up.

 

Just like Korea and Taiwan lived under dictatorship and martial law until the time was ripe. You do know about massive violent rioting in Korea for many years, right? Is that acceptable? No. Martial Law was imposed and lifted only when the people became more civil and obedient.

 

The rioting occurred before K-pop, when Korean men were real brutes instead of the now fashionable plastic-surgery effeminate male.

Edited by chino
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Here's a reason why I support curbs on freedom:

 

 

This is a very graphic youtube video, shot by Korean television, of the immediate aftermath of the 2009 massacre of Han Chinese by Uyghurs. It showed the place littered with dead and mutilated corpses of Han Chinese men, women, possibly children. Very graphic, I couldn't watch it whole as it made me want to go out and kill some Uyghurs.

 

As you know, there is a complete ban on Youtube, while local website content are subject to censorship. Meaning no Chinese saw this video on Youtube, till maybe much later when things subsided.

 

But imagine if there was no press control, no ban, and Han Chinese - say half a billion of them - saw this video on Youtube while the fighting is still ongoing.

 

It will incite a Han Chinese "jihad" on Uyghurs. Han Chinese of the whole country - not just those in Xingjiang - will rise up to exact vengeance on Uyghurs. The whole country would be fighting. Don't believe? Deadly racial altercations between Uyghurs and Han occur even outside of Xinjiang in Guangzhou over matters smaller than a massacre.

 

So this is what I meant by censorship or curtail of freedom, being not just useful, but necessary.

 

You cannot think of just your personal desire for freedom of expression.

The Chinese always say they do not fear any outside threats, because the ones that will do them in will always be the internal strife.

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On the other side, I think some people are more comfortable with limits and boundaries on the society their reside in. I felt that maybe you were like this and thus feel ok with limited freedoms at least with the way it is in China. So now I know :) And such limited freedoms may offer some things not possible in a free society. I can imagine it. (Just had a minor earthquake tremor)

 

I quit school at 16, growing up, the only time I could be controlled was when I was doing military service, which I loved. So, no, I am not accepting of limited freedoms.

 

But there is always what I want as an individual, versus what is necessary for the greater good.

 

No more earthquake, I hope.

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Actually, if you go read the first few pages of that thread, I even included a potential conflict with Japan. I got alot of crap from the unimaginative - "how could a Spratly scenario ever wind up involving Japan??

 

In early 1990's, I wrote a never finished story, where I mentioned the killing of Filipino marines by the PLAN over Spratlys to give some historic backdrop to the era. This killing is fictional and never happened. But it did reveal that even back in the 1990's there were severe tension between the two nations over Spratlys.

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Taiwan is already Chinese. It is the Republic of China. It doesn't have to be part of PRC to be Chinese. However some people in Taiwan want to escape the historical legacy with China and are considering just calling themselves Taiwanese. PRC's reaction is far from friendly though to ROC officially become Taiwan, big reason why they won't.

 

Actually Taiwan itself admits that Taiwan is a part of Mainland China. Don't forget the original plan of the KMT was to recapture power over the Mainland, and after that, they will continue to administer Taiwan as a province o China. The KMT never thought for a second that the island of Taiwan is not a part of the Mainland.

 

That some Taiwanese now decide that the island of Taiwan no longer belongs to China is logically unacceptable and they should be prepared to shed blood for it.

 

Imagine if Bush Jr instead of retiring from the Presidency, sets up government on Manhattan Island, and later declares it independent of the United States. Is that OK so long as the inhabitants of Manhattan Island also wants to be independent and call themselves The Manhattans? Wait...

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God bliss America for making freedom work, its all I can say. (slightly figuratively)

 

That video was horrific.

 

If they can't integrate the Uyghurs, they should consider cutting Xinjinag off PRC proper and focus improving the Han culture. Any Uyghurs that want to stay in PRC can be welcomed, but if they are troublemakers, boot them off to their new low rate East Turkestan homeland.

 

I know that the KMT's goals was to recapture the mainland. Totally unrealistic now. Its a shame they (younger generations) can't just cut off historical baggage and declare themselves Taiwanese.

 

The idea of the Big apple wanting to be separate from the US? Can't visualize it. Try California :)

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There's KMT that has one-China policy like the CCP, where both sides think of themselves as true representatives of the Chinese people and the other side as usurpers, but there's also DPP. It's support is growing, just like the number of people who identify themselves as exclusively Taiwanese. The Taiwanese businessmen like doing business with the mainland, but recently we had young people storming government buildings in protest of a trade deal that makes their country more dependent on the mainland. The position with most support is to retain status quo, but only because of fear of military action by Beijing. Just after that there are people who want independence anyway, while those who support reunification are a tiny minority.

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Please do not jump to the conclusion that China is next ready to invade the Philippines proper.

 

 

When people here (Philippines) discuss the SCS issues, a lot think that China intends to invade the Philippines. This alarmist note doesn't help things. Fortunately, saner heads prevail in our foreign ministry.

 

 

I would like to see a strong, friendly China, one whose strength can provide security, peace, and economic prosperity to the region. Had China been less "aggressive" in its claims, I would welcome Philippines having a closer relationship with China from economic to military. Alas....

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http://youtu.be/Lstf4lZ-R3M

 

These videos probably shouldn't be taken very seriously but it definitely requires attention. I wish I could understand the Chinese but my Chinese is still just beginner level.

 

 

Spoke to two native speakers of Mandarian about this. Lets say the first one reads into the ultranationalistic garbage too much and claims that those lines are some kind of coastal blockade designed to Infringe on the Rights of Chinese via Dirty American Racist Xenophobic Imperialism to Oppress the Chinese into Economic Despair and Enslavement. The second person tells me that the map/diagram is just some analyst stuff wherein they talk about the US war strategy for some hypothectical conflict in which the US would attempt to contain China within the red line and if containment cannot be achieved then the fallback would be to the white line. The green line is apparently some hypothectical case in which the war goes towards the Chinese side or things and the US will do anything at any cost to prevent them from getting past that.

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http://youtu.be/Lstf4lZ-R3M

 

These videos probably shouldn't be taken very seriously but it definitely requires attention. I wish I could understand the Chinese but my Chinese is still just beginner level.

 

 

Spoke to two native speakers of Mandarian about this. Lets say the first one reads into the ultranationalistic garbage too much and claims that those lines are some kind of coastal blockade designed to Infringe on the Rights of Chinese via Dirty American Racist Xenophobic Imperialism to Oppress the Chinese into Economic Despair and Enslavement. The second person tells me that the map/diagram is just some analyst stuff wherein they talk about the US war strategy for some hypothectical conflict in which the US would attempt to contain China within the red line and if containment cannot be achieved then the fallback would be to the white line. The green line is apparently some hypothectical case in which the war goes towards the Chinese side or things and the US will do anything at any cost to prevent them from getting past that.

 

 

Ok, interesting, thanks. The lines in the video you quoted here are a little different from the lines in the other videos/maps. Such as the first line here (red) includes the Philippines where as the 1st island chain line in other sources (for lack of a better word) exclude the Philippines. So its the difference between US blockade lines and PRC defense lines. Well, I'll stop myself here since again, the videos probably shouldn't be taking too seriously.

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China will construct a "Chinese Christian theology" suitable for the country, state media reported on Thursday, as both the number of believers and tensions with the authorities are on the rise. China has between 23 million and 40 million Protestants, accounting for 1.7 to 2.9 per cent of the total population, the state-run China Daily said, citing figures given at a seminar in Shanghai.

 

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1568209/china-will-create-own-christian-belief-system-amid-tensions-church-says

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To go into a list of US bad deeds vs China bad deeds would be pedantic but you will find that the US keep getting away with murder, compared to China. Over and over again.

 

Right. Have to break some eggs to make that omelet of progress.

 

 

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known".

Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/maos-great-leap-forward-killed-45-million-in-four-years-2081630.html

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Dikötter's also had a look at what happened between the Communist takeover & the Great Leap Forward. Not as lethal, but millions killed. Successful peasant farmer? Get beaten to death, or dismembered, or buried alive in front of the whole village for being a capitalist. The killers were often rewarded with the possessions of the victims, & before collectivisation, his land. Oh yes, & sometimes they murdered the whole family, children & all. And so on.

 

And then there was the Cultural Revolution.

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Deng Xiaping had great admiration for Mao during WW2 and the Chinese civil war. Deng was the "practical implementer" while Mao was the idealogist. After communist victory, Deng carried out many operations in solidifying communist control throughout the land. He wasn't shy of ordering the deaths of those suspect of being anti-communist. During the Great Leap Forward, Deng had to work overtime for months to repair the communist party's image with the peasants. By then Deng completely lost confidence in Mao.

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I think that going back to Mao's days shows how weak the propaganda is.

 

( I DO think that China has disgraceful policies and attitudes to minorities, HOWEVER, it is improving and as its infrastructure improves and the wealth of state capitalism spreads things will improve. Just this year the minimum wage has almost doubled and pension rights vastly improved [much to the disgust of Western consumers as export costs rise]).

 

However, their military spending has not vastly risen over the last couple of decades.

 

The Chinese state historically (over millenia, not just decades) has been overly concerned with public order - this is tied up with basic Chinese society and such things as Confucianism. That does not excuse poor/barbaric behaviours, but the West should understand Chinese attitudes, not impose Western attitudes.

 

What is hilarious, however, is the continued US scare mongering regarding Chinese "expansionism" - something that has been going on for two decades-plus, despite NO evidence.

 

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However, their military spending has not vastly risen over the last couple of decades.

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(Reuters) - China's military spending exceeded $145 billion last year as it advanced a program modernizing an arsenal of drones, warships, jets, missiles and cyber weapons, the Pentagon said on Thursday, offering a far higher figure than Beijing's official tally.

The Pentagon's estimate, using 2013 prices and exchange rates, was 21 percent above the $119.5 billion figure announced by China. It was detailed in an annual report to Congress that cited steady progress in Chinese defense capabilities.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/06/us-usa-china-military-idUSKBN0EG2XK20140606

 

 

ON THE first day of the annual session of the National People’s Congress last week, China announced a defence budget for 2014 of $132 billion, a generous increase of 12.2% on the year before. That was the official figure, though the real one may be 40% higher still.

 

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21599046-chinas-fast-growing-defence-budget-worries-its-neighbours-not-every-trend-its-favour

 

In 2000, the official budget figure was approximately 14.6 billion, or 121 billion yuan. China increased its defense spending for the year by 17.7 percent. In early 2001, China's publicly-acknowledged defense budget of over $17 billion for 2001 was higher than the defense budgets of neighboring countries India, Taiwan, and South Korea. Beijing explained this increase as a response to "drastic changes" in the military situation around the world, a reference to the US-led war in Kosovo in 1999. In 2002, China increased military spending in 2002 by 17.6 percent, or $3 billion, bringing the publicly reported total to $20 billion.

 

China again increased its budget to $22 billion in 2003 (about 185.3 billion RMB). China's defense budget continued to grow in 2004. Chinese Finance Minister Jin Renqing proposed an increase of 11.6 percent [$2.6 billion] in military expenditures. The government forecast total revenue for the central budget at $157 billion, up 7 percent [$10.9 billion] from 2003, with a 7 percent boost in overall spending from 2003. The country's $38.7 billion deficit was the same as 2003. Adding off-budget funding for foreign weapons system imports, total defense-related expenditures for 2004 were estimated at between $50 and $70 billion dollars by Richard Lawless, the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/budget.htm

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Ah, the Pentagon gives a VASTLY exaggerated estimate (which neatly ties into its "lets all panic about the Chinese" rubbish) and also ignore the relative population sizes when comparing with other countries, as well as the VAST internal security expenditure contained within the defence spending.

 

I would like some figures for the supposed huge increase in aircraft, AFVs and ships - but that would be difficult as such huge increases just haven't happened.

 

If you willing swallow the Pentagon's idiocies about China then you deserve to pay all the tax that they want.

 

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China announced 130 billion for 2014. 2013 it was 119 billion. The official Chinese released budget for 2000 was still over 100 billion? How about two decades ago.. 1994, around 90 billion?

 

Anyway, even by just maintaining the same ratio with the GDP growth, the military budget will grow fast.

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China announced 130 billion for 2014. 2013 it was 119 billion. The official Chinese released budget for 2000 was still over 100 billion? How about two decades ago.. 1994, around 90 billion?

 

Anyway, even by just maintaining the same ratio with the GDP growth, the military budget will grow fast.

 

A country is like a family, according to the Asian view of states.

 

As a family grows more prosperous, they have more that needs protecting, and more money to do it. Simple as that.

 

If you used to live in a trailer park, maybe you had say a shotgun.

If you ever move into a large house, you're gonna have bullet-proofed vehicles, computerized security systems, and a panic room, plus a small collection of firearms. (Well, at least in America, you would.)

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