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3 Kidnapped Israeli Teenagers Found Executed. Prelude To Big Operation


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EU won't go that far because the US won't simple as that.

As for Gaza, the same has been said for the WB before, and since we cleaned that place up it's relatively quiet, not totaly but it's ok. With Hamas gone and Gaza under control, we can get the rockets out, Egypt has closed it's side of the fence and so when we're done, they won't be able to threaten us as much. As for the underground aspect, in the long range, it's just a matter of time and digging deep enough, the ground water level is not too deep so it's feasible to dig a moat around Gaza.

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EU won't go that far because the US won't simple as that.

 

As for Gaza, the same has been said for the WB before, and since we cleaned that place up it's relatively quiet, not totaly but it's ok. With Hamas gone and Gaza under control, we can get the rockets out, Egypt has closed it's side of the fence and so when we're done, they won't be able to threaten us as much. As for the underground aspect, in the long range, it's just a matter of time and digging deep enough, the ground water level is not too deep so it's feasible to dig a moat around Gaza.

 

 

 

The decisions of the EU aren't necessarily based on what the US does. At this point, the EU is challenging the legal basis of the sanctions in place on Iran and until the the US and Israel provide more evidence that Iran is actually pursuing a nuclear weapons program (the reason evidence is not provided...at least from the Israeli point of view...they don't want to give away sensitive info)...those sanctions against Iran will start to fall apart. The EU courts will decide on this matter.That's just one example of where the EU and US are differing.

 

Also, the Israelis are losing quite badly in the PR campaign and in effect, this happening:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/21/presbyterian-church-votes-divest-holdings-to-sanction-israel

 

 

Oh speaking of divestment...and this is from Israeli's finance minister...

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/blogs/politics/9510-israels-finance-minister-warns-of-boycott-impact-as-further-divestment-announced

 

Speaking at the Institute for National Security Studies, Lapid said that an evaluation prepared by the Finance Ministry had produced an estimate of billions lost in exports should an "even partial" European boycott be imposed, and that "Israel's economy today is much more vulnerable than its national security".

The Israeli economy will retreat, every Israeli citizen will be hit directly in his pocket, the cost of living will rise, budgets for education, health welfare and security will be cut, and many international markets will be closed to us. 33% of Israeli trade is with the European Union. If there is no political settlement and we enter a scenario where our economy drops 20% in exports to the EU, the impact on the GDP would be 11 billion shekels annually, and 9,800 employees will be laid off immediately.

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The Israelis aren't complete idiots. They realize that if they go far enough against the Palestinians, a pushback from the EU will take place, as predicted by Israel's finance minister. I'm assuming he has a better idea of EU's actions than any of us do, and the fact he's quite concerned says something.

 

In the end, a political settlement will be reached. Whether it will be with Hamas or a group that supercedes it, who knows. But continuing down this path will push the Israelis in a smaller corner. Sure there will be tons of dead Arabs, but I'm not sure when the last time a bunch of dead Arabs actually made Israel significantly safer now than it was five years ago.

 

Furthermore, Israel's credibility also takes a hit from these claims:

 

http://www.theborneopost.com/2014/08/02/malaysia-has-no-military-cooperation-with-hamas-says-home-minister/

 

Seriously, Malaysia training Hamas fighters? :blink: And again, absolutely no proof is being offered to back these claims.

Edited by crazyinsane105
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Actually Malaysia is a popular R&R and intermediate destination for all manner of jihadi thanks to our ultra liberal attitude towards the Sunnah. In fact there I much consternation now that elements of the armed forces have been discovered to be training jihadis. Certainly back in the Yugo wars, we provided both materiel and training to the Bosnians.

But hey.....

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EU won't go that far because the US won't simple as that.

 

As for Gaza, the same has been said for the WB before, and since we cleaned that place up it's relatively quiet, not totaly but it's ok. With Hamas gone and Gaza under control, we can get the rockets out, Egypt has closed it's side of the fence and so when we're done, they won't be able to threaten us as much. As for the underground aspect, in the long range, it's just a matter of time and digging deep enough, the ground water level is not too deep so it's feasible to dig a moat around Gaza.

 

 

You don't get it, Israel doesn't get it. You're supposed to maintain your ghetto in the Palestine growing oranges and flowers but no more. Have you ever wondered why the western left is so eager to forgive Hamas even as they declare it a terrorist organization? Your brethren in Europe, those that still remain, need to rise up with some militancy, spill some blood, tell them any slight whatsoever against Jews and Judaism will be met with bloodshed. Only when they are frightened of you will you gain their respect.

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...Certainly back in the Yugo wars, we provided both materiel and training to the Bosnians.

 

Explains few AUGs that surfaced in 1994.

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You don't get it, Israel doesn't get it. You're supposed to maintain your ghetto in the Palestine growing oranges and flowers but no more. Have you ever wondered why the western left is so eager to forgive Hamas even as they declare it a terrorist organization? Your brethren in Europe, those that still remain, need to rise up with some militancy, spill some blood, tell them any slight whatsoever against Jews and Judaism will be met with bloodshed. Only when they are frightened of you will you gain their respect.

 

 

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Still not sure what Operation Protective Edge hopes to achieve in the long run. Had the Israelis just left Hamas alone, I'm quite sure within a few months Hamas itself would've collapsed.

 

My more cynical side suspects that is the actual reason behind the operation. It just seems to me that both sides have arrived at the conclusion that the current situation, however imperfect, is preferrable for their interests to changes of unknown results. Hence the Palestinian authority blowing up the dragging peace talks by making up with Hamas, a proven instrument to this end since they know full-well it's a red cloth to Israel; the Israeli government gladly taking the bait, and both sides latching onto the kidnapping and murder of the three teenagers.

 

No matter whether you believe it was done by a rogue clan, since little evidence of direct Hamas responsibility has been made public - rockets were dropping out of Gaza soon after Israel had begun its massive search operations in the West Bank, leading to the predictable result we have now. The Palestinians get to keep playing victims paid by the Arab and Western world, Israel keeps them divided by giving life support to Hamas, at the same time preserving it as a reason to keep the status quo and preventing the rise of even more radical groups in its place.

 

As for real EU sanctions, I don't see that short of Israel stringing up Palestinian babies to bleed them for matzo on live TV. Germany certainly wouldn't stand for it as long as it can point to the Palestinans providing the reason for Israeli action. While governments do change, even Merkel and Netanyahu have been reported to yell at each other on the phone over Israeli policy to no official dementi I can recall (and that's really difficult to imagine for Merkel); still, for all the unease uttered by the government about the humanitarian situation in Gaza, the quasi-official doctrine of Israel's security being part of Germany's national interest has not been touched, and there would definitely be no support for sanctions hitting only Israel while the Palestinians keep getting paid from EU money.

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What both sides need for domestic consumption now is an external actor to blame for the "failure" to achieve end goals that neither side truly wanted to achieve in the first place. The United States will play that role nicely, being blamed for both enabling Israel and preventing Israel as need be.

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Is that a real question rmgill!?

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Seems for some if Israel wasn't bad i.e: answering the Hamas - maybe is also put in doubt the origin more 100 rockets that fell in Israel in "ceasefire" months - rule would have collapsed in a couple of months.

 

I am always surprised by the mind bending capabilities people show.

 

I shouldn't.

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Nobu, I think we've done more than our share of concessions to the Palestinians, the only thing we got back was hatred.
As long as their media, sponsored by the PA (from EU aid no less) is teaching children to hate and kill Israelis, there will be no peace. You want to see the difference, check out the reaction of the average Israeli to the killing of a palestinan kid by Israeli terrorists and the reaction of the average palestinian to the killing of three Israeli kids by palestinan terrorists.

The only solution right now would be for Israel to withdraw unilateraly from most of the WB and let the Palis fend for themselves. This time, we should also declare that in 3 years we will cease any supply of electricity and water to them, suggest aid in building their own powerplants and water infrastructure.
They want a state, they should start to act like it.

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Never happen. Pals just cannot manage their own affairs. When it becomes too hard, they attack Israel, the giant squirrel. Wonder why the gastabend in the gulf are not all Pals?

I don't think anybody wants them to and many of their enablers and so called friends actively work to keep them dysfunctional.

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They want a state, they should start to act like it.

They do want a state, yours. Sadly, as often as that's repeated it is as often falling on deaf ears.

 

 

They only want it so they can tear it down, live in its rubble, and continue being victims.

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The PA and Hamas want a thug mafia state a la Cosa Nostra Palestinia.

 

The action is the billions in aid and the public sympathy flowing in to help people who frankly, based on a world level of suffering index, do not deserve it. The side action, drugs, smuggling, black marketeering, protection money, plus the skim from Palestinian businesses, on top of state and UN level diplomatic legitimacy, expose the entire Palestinian movement for what it is, a racket.

 

Fighting a mafia-type organization is difficult. The only instance that comes to mind of a successful war against one is the Thuggees.

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The only solution right now would be for Israel to withdraw unilateraly from most of the WB and let the Palis fend for themselves. This time, we should also declare that in 3 years we will cease any supply of electricity and water to them, suggest aid in building their own powerplants and water infrastructure.

They want a state, they should start to act like it.

 

Makes sense. The wall on the West Bank already pretty much delineates the future border there, and Gaza has a rather straightforward perimeter. Tunnels remain a problem; I'd be surprised if Israel hasn't already some fancy stuff in place to detect them, but given what is blown up currently, the only real solution might be to encase Gaza in concrete to a depth of 50 meters with sensors on the foundations. Of course Hamas would try to get under that too, at which point we're uncomfortably approaching a mineshaft race ...

 

Frankly, the current policy of periodic large-scale incursions into Gaza makes little sense to me. I fully understand that a state must react to terrorism and shelling of its territory, and that the fear of those living under constant threat of rockets on the borders can't be really quantified. However, compared to the terror of the 90s and early last decade, with the security wall, Iron Dome and the connected procedures in place now, I don't think the equation of destroying tunnels and rocket stocks in Gaza itself resolves. Once the IDF is gone, the tunnels will be rebuilt and more rockets smuggled in, even though Hamas has lost the support of Team Shia (to appropriate a Simonism) over Syria.

 

OTOH Israel has lost upwards of 60 in the current operation, which I believe to be more than all victims combined since the last Gaza operation (and while most of them are IDF, obviously they were not just "professionals who got paid to do the job and knew the risks"); it seems now the missing soldier is also dead. Otherwise, under the generally admirable Israeli policy to leave no man behind, he might have again be exchanged against vastly disproportionate numbers of terrorists in the future, leading to more domestic political trouble, another inherent risk of such incursions.

 

Of course you know you will be blasted for unilateral disengagement too for abandoning the poor Palestinians to their fate, but as you will get blasted anyway, you might as well go for the less costly option in the long run. The current policy is rather akin to taking a hammer to your hand because somebody keeps driving splinters under your fingernails.

Edited by BansheeOne
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Double bad....since Team Shia no longer likes them and Team Sunni is burned with Egypt. No, this is a bad place for Hamas. The Israelis are going to trash Gaza extra bad because they can and it will take longer to rebuild. There is no solution, only treating the symptoms. Might as well go broad spectrum and deep.

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Well Hamas is in worst shape now than either after the previous operations due to Egypt actively denying it's resupply routes. They have fewer than 50% of ther original rockets and even less of the long range ones and those they can't get from Sinai as easy as they could in the past.
As for tunnels, most of the ones leading into Israel are destroyed and will take a long time to rebuild. From what I understand the time it took to bring them down was as long because they had to plant explosive charges all along the tunnel and not only in the shafts.

The best solution would be to surround Gaza with a moat and flood it with sea water. It's even possible to build a desalination plant at one end and supply the are with fresh water. The high groundwater in the area will make digging deep enough impractical for Hamas.

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Possible solution (at least it prevents the rockets):

 

 

As for the tunnels, build the wall underground...?

 

 

As for the ammount of casualties, while high and sad, a large part of them are due to our own lack of professionalism.

 

Can you give examples? Or do you mean lack of a professional force ala US armed forces (because IDF is conscripted)?

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