F22 Fighter Good Or Junk?

[Edmund]

I just saw a youtube video ripping the F22 apart. Something about maintence of 30 hrs for 1 hr of flight, Breaking down in less then 2 hrs of flight and not working in the rain.

 

There was also several videos ripping on the F22 and F35.

 

So is the F22 junk or a good plane? Thanks.

[glenn239]

For what it's worth, my brother played shuttle pilot to F-22 pilots during an air show in Toronto a few years back. Maintainence issues aside, (I forget if he asked on that or not) they were of the opinion that there's nothing on this planet - at least at that time - that an F-22 couldn't rip apart.

[RETAC21]

Echoes the experience of those who have flow against it. Sure, when you get in the booth with it, it may not be the best and can be defeated, but the OPFOR needs to survive to SRAM range...

[Josh]

I'm not sure how hard it is to maintain, but everything I've heard about it says that its all but impossible to detect and lock on to with a 4th generation aircraft. One Brit was quoted as saying even WVR that it was a bitch to lock on to--he didn't get into specifics what type of weapon lock he had trouble with. The only simulated kill I've heard of involved a F-18G; I think there are hundreds of simunlated F-22 victories. Even without a low RCS, the kinematics of the F-22 would make it a tough opponent to fly against.

[Phil]

Even without a low RCS, the kinematics of the F-22 would make it a tough opponent to fly against.

 

 

Which is all well and good except in a real shooting war history shows that the tactics, intelligence and command and control matter far more than ability of the plane in a one on one dogfight. Aerial victories drop dramatically in a dog-fight. It's the bounce which is the gold standard.

[rmgill]

Which is why the E-3 Sentry/F-22 combination is more than just the F-22.

The E-3 provides the data and the F-22 is on the target before the target knows it has a problem.

[Sikkiyn]

I just saw a youtube video ripping the F22 apart. Something about maintence of 30 hrs for 1 hr of flight, Breaking down in less then 2 hrs of flight and not working in the rain.

 

There was also several videos ripping on the F22 and F35.

 

So is the F22 junk or a good plane? Thanks.

 

I watch the various videos from time to time, (with popcorn in hand,) to watch the most ignorant ultra-nationalist teens from around the globe, write about how both the 22 and 35 are garbage, and everyone chanting Su35, Su30MKI, PakFa. Then you get mouth pieces such as Pierre Sprey to diss the 22 and 35; wonder how much they paid him for that--not like he has been in the loop of either of the programs, or the technologies involved....Boyd rolling in his grave perhaps, laughing at Sprey?

 

If you do some research into it, you will catch random nuggets w/r/t actual capabilities; which are far ahead of the pack... but that doesn't make for good Youtube comedy.

 

Edited July 1, 2014 by Sikkiyn

[Corinthian]

The only complaint I've heard of the F-22 is that not enough were built.

[Mr King]

Here is the question I have, what aircraft is in service that even comes close to the capabilities of the F22? Or how about one even close to being put into to production. I am not a fan boy, but lets put it in context. You have other aircraft that posses singular capabilities of the F22, but I dont know of one that wraps them all into a package as in the F22.

[Noble713]

I asked a few specific questions to some F-22 pilots during a familiarization tour at Nellis a few years ago. The only shortfalls (outside of maintenance) were vulnerability to IRST sensors (supercruising at high altitude gives you a huge heat signature?) and in dogfights there was some concern about high-angle off-bore-sight missiles in a turn-and-burn situation.

 

Agreed that not enough were built. The F-35 is shaping up to be half the plane at twice the price...

[Corinthian]

Here is the question I have, what aircraft is in service that even comes close to the capabilities of the F22? Or how about one even close to being put into to production. I am not a fan boy, but lets put it in context. You have other aircraft that posses singular capabilities of the F22, but I dont know of one that wraps them all into a package as in the F22.

 

Not close, but rather superior - F-23.

 

 

 

hehehehe

[Corinthian]

(supercruising at high altitude gives you a huge heat signature?) and in dogfights there was some concern about high-angle off-bore-sight missiles in a turn-and-burn situation.

Interesting. How does supercruise give a huge heat sig? Is it because the plane is flying fast, and there's friction in the air as it flies across the atmosphere? Like a meteor crashing to Earth?

 

As for dogfights, ISTR that if the F-22 finds itself in one, the Raptor pilot wasn't flying properly.

[Sikkiyn]

I asked a few specific questions to some F-22 pilots during a familiarization tour at Nellis a few years ago. The only shortfalls (outside of maintenance) were vulnerability to IRST sensors (supercruising at high altitude gives you a huge heat signature?) and in dogfights there was some concern about high-angle off-bore-sight missiles in a turn-and-burn situation.

 

Agreed that not enough were built. The F-35 is shaping up to be half the plane at twice the price...

 

Actually it is shaping up to be what it is designed to be; it is not designed to be an F-22, nor is the F-22 designed to be an F-35.

You need a more front-line asset to take care of business, without having to resort to a bum-rush each time, and the proven B2 is best kept for the coup-de-grace, versus its' past of going after HVT; ref: Serbia.

Look at the F-35 as a F/A F117, with the newest technological gizmos, and the ability to perform WVR as an equal if not better than an F16.

You can have Gen. Horner's "Poobahs Party" all over again, and waste a lot of $ or you can have a couple wings of F-35 go in a make total hash of the IAD.

 

"approximately one-hundred drones were fired from ground sites in Saudi Arabia to trigger the Iraqi IADS into action to they could be targeted for destruction by Coalition air assets. With the stealthy Lockheed F-117A Nighthawks going "downtown" to Baghdad to take out the command and control centers of the IADS, individual radar and SAM sites then were left on their own to find their own targets in the midst of some intense jamming. Iraqi radar sites could burn through the jamming, and when they did, they detected the drones of Poobah's Party. Sites that hadn't expended their missiles on the drones found themselves targeted by F-4G Wild Weasels."

 

Now imagine you have F-35s going in, making smoking holes all over the place, from the FLOT to Downtown where-ever, killing command-control-and communications, along with different assets. Enemy aircraft will likely be annoyed by this, but its' a stone bit*h to hit something you can't spot; now you get its' big brother, the F-22, making smoke trails of the enemy air-force, while the 35 goes happily about its' business of making safe zones for the F-15E/16/18 clan to come in and stomp around. You can have the proven B2 to come in with the heavy stuff, to smoke bunker facilities, or B-1/52's, and there is nothing the bad-guy can do about it.

 

In the end, that's the point. Make yourself so advanced, that no country has a snowballs chance = peace, or a short conflict.

 

It is also why I am opposed to the USAF wanting to be rid of the A-10. It is a great CAS aircraft, and as witnessed on the "highway of death" a royal MF against convoys; whether fleeing or coming to the field.

Of course artillery (if used correctly and in numbers) will make grid squares a no-mans land as well....i.e.:

 

11th Marine Artillery Regiment outside Baghdad. April 2003 (Regimental fire mission... 155mm DPICM)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8

Edited July 1, 2014 by Sikkiyn

[Archie Pellagio]

All the reliable sources I've seen/heard/read indicate it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Servicibility issues are the only problems I know of from decent sources, not the 'OMFG Su35 STRRRROoOOoo0000NK!!!!!!!" crowd.

[Juan Sosa]

The vulnerability of the F-22 to advanced IRST's is a relative, not absolute, issue. The problem is that, even with advanced coatings, you still can't stop an aircraft from emitting heat. That means that the F-22 is much more detectable in the IR spectrum than the EM. Hence, enemies with good IRST can detect it sooner than those with the best radars out there.

 

All aircraft are vulnerable to IRST. However, I am still unclear how good IRST really is at finding targets without AWACS or ground control narrowing down the search area.

[Josh]

There is vulnerability in the WVR envelope. The F-22 doesn't even have a HOBS system; something the MiG-29 had in the 80's. For its role it might well not need one, but every other modern aircraft has one at this point and the F-35 takes this one step further with DAS which can function as a missile warning system, IRST, and HOBS. People knock the F-35 for supposedly being not as manuverable as future Su-27 series but I suspect being able to have 360 detection and engagement coverage with lock on after launch 60G datalinked AAMs largely makes a sustained turning battle pretty moot.

 

That said, every exercise has seen the F-22 mop up 4th gen aircraft, and additionally the F-22's often stay on station after theoretically emptying their magazines since their ESM systems provide a wealth of information in the forward area of a battle. F-35 will take this one step farther; its ESM is more modern and sensor fused to the DAS with 360 instead of 180 coverage.

[urbanoid]

Fighter Good.

[Beitou]

Even if the F22 is a sack of shite I doubt a video on You Tube would be the definative proof. I suspect the USAF might be keeping all such information a little bit close to their chests, just a feeling!

[Edmund]

 

I just saw a youtube video ripping the F22 apart. Something about maintence of 30 hrs for 1 hr of flight, Breaking down in less then 2 hrs of flight and not working in the rain.

 

There was also several videos ripping on the F22 and F35.

 

So is the F22 junk or a good plane? Thanks.

 

I watch the various videos from time to time, (with popcorn in hand,) to watch the most ignorant ultra-nationalist teens from around the globe, write about how both the 22 and 35 are garbage, and everyone chanting Su35, Su30MKI, PakFa. Then you get mouth pieces such as Pierre Sprey to diss the 22 and 35; wonder how much they paid him for that--not like he has been in the loop of either of the programs, or the technologies involved....Boyd rolling in his grave perhaps, laughing at Sprey?

 

If you do some research into it, you will catch random nuggets w/r/t actual capabilities; which are far ahead of the pack... but that doesn't make for good Youtube comedy.

 

 

 

Video of the Sprey dissing the F35. Says a Mig-21 could out dogfight it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDSiwqM2nw

[sunday]

The vulnerability of the F-22 to advanced IRST's is a relative, not absolute, issue. The problem is that, even with advanced coatings, you still can't stop an aircraft from emitting heat. That means that the F-22 is much more detectable in the IR spectrum than the EM. Hence, enemies with good IRST can detect it sooner than those with the best radars out there.

 

All aircraft are vulnerable to IRST. However, I am still unclear how good IRST really is at finding targets without AWACS or ground control narrowing down the search area.

 

Could we have a back-of-envelope calculation on how much time a IRST -with a typical field of view- would need to scan a quarter of a sphere?

[seahawk]

F-22 is very good. If it does what it is meant to do, knocking out enemy fighters within enemy airspace. If is denied the help of an AWACS and forced into a defensive scenario with the radar running, while the neemy enjoys an AWACS, it can be beaten. If not, F-22 wins. Even in a dogfight they are strong.

[Juan Sosa]

 

The vulnerability of the F-22 to advanced IRST's is a relative, not absolute, issue. The problem is that, even with advanced coatings, you still can't stop an aircraft from emitting heat. That means that the F-22 is much more detectable in the IR spectrum than the EM. Hence, enemies with good IRST can detect it sooner than those with the best radars out there.

 

All aircraft are vulnerable to IRST. However, I am still unclear how good IRST really is at finding targets without AWACS or ground control narrowing down the search area.

 

Could we have a back-of-envelope calculation on how much time a IRST -with a typical field of view- would need to scan a quarter of a sphere?

 

 

That is the big question. AFAIK, IRST's tend to have very narrow FoV. They're great a cued detection (i.e., a radar or off board systems says "look here"), but if forced to scan whole sections of the sky they run into a two main problems: scan speed and rejection of other heat sources. Also, forget about simultaneous search and track. Then there is the range finding aspect. The system might detect an enemy aircraft at a certain azimuth and elevation, but going from there to a firing solution is a whole other problem. I'm not sure how effective laser range finding is over BVR combat distances.

[Chris Werb]

Juan, with modern processing techniques, couldn't the IRST identify the aircraft and use its image size vs known dimensions to determine its range to an accuracy level required for a firing solution for a weapon with its own seeker?

[DB]

A hint from Thales of PIRATE capabilities, perhaps - third paragraph

 

http://pilkoptr02.uuhost.uk.uu.net/systems.htm

 

And for Chris:

 

A friend of mine wrote a simple aircraft recognition system that could reliably identify aircraft type from a plan view satellite image by measuring the ratio of length to wingspan. It did this automatically. This was in 1988 on the clockwork computers available then. I would imagine that the state of the art is some considerable distance from that now.

Edited July 1, 2014 by DB

[Juan Sosa]

Chris, perhaps that is the case. That link DB provided says "sub-miliradian" accuracy, depending on what that means exactly, that can make what you say possible at longer ranges. That still leaves the issue of search+track scenarios. I think DAS is the only system that follows the "Eye of Sauron" approach with omnidirectional FOV.

 

After doing more research while typing my reply, it appears that TWS modes are available for, at least, Gripen's Skyward IRST. That makes it likely that other modern systems have it as well.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eJpehhPV6-Y/TePgzBvTkNI/AAAAAAAAAH4/LA9MgIAXa3U/s1600/Skyward+IRST-2.jpg

 

Is it as good a radar against non-stealthy platforms? Probably not, but it will be better than radar against stealthy ones. Of course, we know squat all as to what IR reduction measures the F-22 and F-35 have.

 

It seems that, with these systems, stealth platforms aren't as effective as 10-15 years ago. However, since IRST tech is in use by all advance aircraft producing countries, and that all those countries are producing or developing stealth fighters, then they clearly don't see it as making stealth obsolete.