Cold War, The Reimagined Series

[BansheeOne]

Funnily of all the political movies I've seen, "Nixon" felt the most familiar to me if you took away all the exciting illegal stuff ...

[urbanoid]

Has there been any interest from Poland or Baltics to buy surplus German Marders or Pzh2000?

 

There are talks about surplus PzH2000 and CV90 for Estonia, Lithuania also considers buying some PzHs. The latter also wanted to acquire Boxers, either from German stocks or current orders, but were denied due to BW needing more of them in the first place.

 

As for Poland there's 155 mm SPH Krab on order, this time with licensed K9 chassis. The MoD also wants a domestic (or domestically produced, at least) IFV, and about that particular program I have my concerns - they want it to cross the goddamn rivers on its own, so we may end sacrificing protection for such a retarded requirement...

[Gregory]

i think 200 30-year old marders would be more than EDF can manage to maintain in some decent shape without very radical change of force structure...

That is also true. And Estonia actually has a reasonable APC fleet, such that a hi/lo mix of Pasi and CV30 makes a lot of sense. I was actually more thinking in terms of Latvia's purchase of 120 CVR-Ts - apparently they paid about $60 million for it, which is roughly on par with Marder purchase price. Given a choice between a Marder 1A3 or CVR-T I would've gone with the Marder, I think. I wonder if Lithuanians are planning to upgrade from their M113s? They can't be in that great a shape.

[BansheeOne]

That's why they were lodging an informal request for the Boxers. The details of what they wanted and was rejected are not quite clear, as is who leaked the news and to what end, but they are understandably pissed of how it was treated in German media, which is probably not helping the issue.

[Gregory]

From the "No, really?" file:

To use the defense budget effectively, it's extremely important for Baltic countries to work closely in the defense sphere, including even purchase of armaments." said Lithuanian PM A. Butkyavichus, at the press-conference of government heads of Baltic countries.

PM of Latvia Laimdota Strayuma agreed, however no details on purchases were mentioned.

http://ru.delfi.lt/news/politics/premer-strany-baltii-mogli-by-zakupat-vooruzheniya-sovmestno.d?id=67673772

[bd1]

 

i think 200 30-year old marders would be more than EDF can manage to maintain in some decent shape without very radical change of force structure...

That is also true. And Estonia actually has a reasonable APC fleet, such that a hi/lo mix of Pasi and CV30 makes a lot of sense. I was actually more thinking in terms of Latvia's purchase of 120 CVR-Ts - apparently they paid about $60 million for it, which is roughly on par with Marder purchase price. Given a choice between a Marder 1A3 or CVR-T I would've gone with the Marder, I think. I wonder if Lithuanians are planning to upgrade from their M113s? They can't be in that great a shape.

 

actually i´ve thought all three baltic states should have standardized on ex-belgium/netherland ypr-765/AIFV-s that were sold by hundreds to jordan and egypt - not that old as marders, better gun, whole vehicle faimily - mortar carriers,command veh. etc., armor worse of course, but better commonality and more options for support due to them being similar to m113s. and selling prices were around 350k dollars too according to SIPRI. always thought that vehicle being broadly similar to bmp-2 by capabilities

 

unless of course somebody tells me that marder would have been superior package, all my knowlege is based on reading the internet...

Edited April 11, 2015 by bd1

[Panzermann]

Marder got the better armour and having seen both side by side going cross country, the Marders seemed to be driving cross country easier. Though FFG from Flensburg would like to sell upgrades to drive train, suspension and armour derived from their M113 offers.

 

 

Another steal would have been surplus BMP and BTR of the NVA in the beginning 90ies. Sure not much armour, but definitely able to traverse the local terrain and be fine in freezing cold.

[bd1]

in early 90´s germany most likely would not have sold us any decent war stuff, though they donated minesweepers, ex-gdr mi-8, L-410, even estonian border guards used old NVA or GDR borderguards uniforms, some trucks ( in my signal batallion we had 2 ifa W50 - ok´ish, and some roburs - frikking trabant equivalent ...)

 

i seriously doubt that german sensitivity would allowed to give (or even sell) anything with pointy tip

 

about the marders - has anybody picked them up? since they would be at the mercy of monopoly of KMW for as long they use the marders? aifv/ypr one could fit any supplier that provides for m113, right?

Edited April 12, 2015 by bd1

[swerve]

about the marders - has anybody picked them up? since they would be at the mercy of monopoly of KMW for as long they use the marders? aifv/ypr one could fit any supplier that provides for m113, right?

See Panzwermann's post above. FFG Flensburg would love to take Marder customers away from KMW. It also does M113 modernisations (says on its website it's done 1500), & others, & has its own APC design.

[Panzermann]

Indonesia baught fifty Marder and the Bundeswehr is going to use the Marder longer to bolster the numbers, considering the buy back of Leopard 2.(a guess on my part) And I hope someone was smart enough to store parts from the scrapped tracked Roland systems as spare parts. Which would supply for years to come. The Problem with the Marders is that they are bloody old and need serious overhaul.

 

 

Turkey uses licensed AIFV variants, but I do not know how much these have in common with the dutch vehicles.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Panzermann

[Panzermann]

Funnily of all the political movies I've seen, "Nixon" felt the most familiar to me if you took away all the exciting illegal stuff ...

Nixon was a politician turned up to eleven and felt himself above everything.

 

Good movie btw. Frost/Nixon is great too. How arrogant and invincible feeling Nixon comes across. I always wanted to take the time and watch the original interview.

[bd1]

Swerve, Panzermann , i see that the problem with marder is that it´s old and needs (expensive) refurbishment and additionally m113-based support vehicles, while ypr/aifv is quite similar to m113 - 2 logistic trains vs 1. we´re speaking here of baltic countries that are very limited in logistical and maintenance capabilities

 

. turks bought 50 ypr before starting their own production and is probably quite similar. i think Simon Tan wrote that turkish version has worse armor than dutch and that turks bought the whole m113a2 product. line from USA

Edited April 12, 2015 by bd1

[wendist]

Yet another declaration of solidarity in the face of a common threat. All these declarations and agreements between various nordic countries can easily be disregarded as baby-steps but there has been so many of them lately that they might actually begin to make a difference. Two questions come to mind. Will these declarations amount to anything should the need arise? And what good has come out of the more aggressive and provocative foreign policy Russia has conducted over the last years?

 

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Russian-aggression-Nordic-states-extend-their-military-cooperation-7975109.html

 

 

Russias responce:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/12/us-russia-crisis-nato-idUSKBN0N30D220150412

 

 

Edited to add reuters article.

Edited April 12, 2015 by wendist

[urbanoid]

 

Has there been any interest from Poland or Baltics to buy surplus German Marders or Pzh2000?

 

There are talks about surplus PzH2000 and CV90 for Estonia, Lithuania also considers buying some PzHs. The latter also wanted to acquire Boxers, either from German stocks or current orders, but were denied due to BW needing more of them in the first place.

 

As for Poland there's 155 mm SPH Krab on order, this time with licensed K9 chassis. The MoD also wants a domestic (or domestically produced, at least) IFV, and about that particular program I have my concerns - they want it to cross the goddamn rivers on its own, so we may end sacrificing protection for such a retarded requirement...

 

Looks like ze Germans agreed for the sale.

[BansheeOne]

Far from the habitual ruckus surrounding other deliveries, really. First, there is no quibbling about the export guidelines in this case because they expressively make NATO and EU members okay to arm; Lithuania isn't some Arabian despocy after all. Second, from all of the political camps who like to be critical of arms exports, only the Left Party with it's no-military-stuff-whatsoever, pro-Russian stance is likely to take offense. The Greens as the other usual suspects are actually the most critical of current Russian politics, and the ruling coalition is behind the reassurance measures anyway. Maybe there will be some noise from the peace movement and extra-parliamentary pro-Russian circles, but I don't expect much.

 

Germany pledges weapons to Lithuania

Lithuania has increased its defense spending over the past year amid fears of Russia incursion. Some of that money will likely contribute to buying a dozen German tanks from the Bundeswehr.

Germany's defense minister, Ursula von der Leyen, wrapped up her two-day tour of the Baltic states with a visit to the Lithuanian capital on Wednesday.

Following a meeting with her Lithuanian counterpart, Juozas Olekas (pictured), the two defense ministers announced a military equipment deal which will see the purchase of heavy weapons from Germany's Bundeswehr.

"It's an extensive package that's we're attaching to the [tank deal]," von der Leyen said.

Lithuania is to buy 12 howitzer 2000 from the German military for 15 million euros ($15.9 million) along with the corresponding combat and weapon engagement systems. The governments are to finalize the details in May.

Von der Leyen also confirmed that Berlin would lobby for Lithuania's bid to buy Boxer armored transport vehicles, which it must purchase from the manufacturer. The news confirmed reports in February of Vilnius' considering a German company in the bidding process.

On Tuesday, the German defense minister visited neighboring Estonia and Latvia in a sign of solidarity. Roughly 25 years after gaining independence from the Soviet Union, the three NATO members are now eyeing Russia warily after its surprise annexation of Crimea last year.

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, Vilnius has increased its defense spending by roughly 50 percent over the past year. It has also said that it is considering the reintroduction of conscription as a direct result of the perceived geopolitical threat.

 

http://www.dw.de/germany-pledges-weapons-to-lithuania/a-18384544

[urbanoid]

 

Lithuania has increased its defense spending over the past year amid fears of Russia incursion. Some of that money will likely contribute to buying a dozen German tanks from the Bundeswehr.

 

Err....um....

[urbanoid]

I don't know if the Iskanders are already in Kaliningrad, and frankly speaking I don't give a shit. NOT deploying them isn't worth any concessions from our side, as they can ship them there anytime anyway. Actually I even prefer to have them in arty / NSM / JASSM range in case SHTF.

[Gregory]

Speaking of tanks - there really should be no reason why Baltic states can't operate a tank battalion, Leopard 2A4s perhaps (about $1 million/pc). Put a maintenance center in Latvia, split a company each to each state.

[BansheeOne]

I was more thinking about the noise the Russians are going to make about it. Traditionally Artillery is viewed as an offensive weapon, and anything Lithuania can deliver over the border is going to be viewed as bad news.

 

Ah, I got you wrong. Which is probably indicative of German domestic politics ...

 

As for the Russian, like all else they triggered with their recent actions, they'll just have to suck it up.

[urbanoid]

Speaking of tanks - there really should be no reason why Baltic states can't operate a tank battalion, Leopard 2A4s perhaps (about $1 million/pc). Put a maintenance center in Latvia, split a company each to each state.

 

I'm not sure if it makes much sense in their situation. I'd rather say there should be a permanent presence of such a battalion in each of the three states. Or 'rotational permanent' if certain wimps still don't want to harm Vlad's sensitivity.

[Gregory]

 

Speaking of tanks - there really should be no reason why Baltic states can't operate a tank battalion, Leopard 2A4s perhaps (about $1 million/pc). Put a maintenance center in Latvia, split a company each to each state.

I'm not sure if it makes much sense in their situation. I'd rather say there should be a permanent presence of such a battalion in each of the three states. Or 'rotational permanent' if certain wimps still don't want to harm Vlad's sensitivity.

 

Well...that goes to the whole question, how much organic self-defense capability Baltics need versus one provided by other members of the alliance? That's not a rhetorical question, by they way...

[urbanoid]

Well...that goes to the whole question, how much organic self-defense capability Baltics need versus one provided by other members of the alliance? That's not a rhetorical question, by they way...

 

I would exclude tank units and, obviously, fighter aircraft, those should be provided by other members.

 

As for the Balts themselves... conscription (Estonia had & has it, Lithuania is reintroducing, Latvia doesn't have it), shitload of ATGMs (Javelin F.Yeah), MANPADS, some IFVs (wheeled and/or tracked), some artillery.

[Panzermann]

 

 

Well...that goes to the whole question, how much organic self-defense capability Baltics need versus one provided by other members of the alliance? That's not a rhetorical question, by they way...

I would exclude tank units and, obviously, fighter aircraft, those should be provided by other members.

 

As for the Balts themselves... conscription (Estonia had & has it, Lithuania is reintroducing, Latvia doesn't have it), shitload of ATGMs (Javelin F.Yeah), MANPADS, some IFVs (wheeled and/or tracked), some artillery.

I think their strategy should be to sell themselves as costly as they can with prepared mined bridges, mine fields at the borders, prepared traps and obstacles, artillery to welcome them.... Then turn to partisan warfare and prepare and train most of the population for such. Position depots for this around the country. And make an occupation as costly as possible to delay the invader for NATO to arrive.

 

The new tubes for the lithuanian artillery would be definitely useful during an invasion, but a dozen is not many and cannot be everywhere.

[swerve]

I recall the Estonian government saying in the 1990s that the USSR claimed that Estonia had joined it voluntarily in 1940, because it hadn't fought, but had agreed to the Red Army marching in peacefully. What actually happened was that when faced with a Soviet ultimatum saying "let us in or we'll crush you", backed by overwhelming force, & with no prospect of outside help, Estonia had ordered its army not to fight. The Red Army marched in, & immediately installed a new government of communists & their friends, which arranged (with Soviet help) rigged elections to a new parliament, which voted to do whatever the Great God Stalin decreed.

 

Therefore, to deny even the spurious legitimacy of that process to any future Russian attempt to take 'em over, the Estonians adopted a policy of fighting, however hopeless the situation. IIRC nobody has the authority to surrender the state or the armed forces.

[JasonJ]