Kiev Is Burning

[carrierlost]

 

I don't think Greek feelings about Russia are much influenced by recent events, but more by common orthodox cultural background.

 

Do ordinary Greeks so much aware about Greek role in Russian history? Greece is a birthplace for a great part of all Western culture, so Russia is really minor issue from this perspective.

 

Nah Greek is so last year. Just read that future school history books in Russia will tell that they are of Aryan decent.

This is what is planned by head of Duma's (parliament) education committee Nikonov. (Source - official duma web page: http://www.duma.gov.ru/news/273/646438/)

[ink]

Lets not be fair though, its not like Special forces are wholly incapable of wearing local costume. Im sure ive seen a photograph of a WW2 SAS soldier wearing a Fez.

 

Ultimately you cant really tell from how they look, who these people are. Yes, they may be locals. OTOH, that they are dressed like locals means little.

 

They're probably Delta Force then.

 

 

When are the Greeks going to stop whining? They've been given vast sums for the last 43 years, e.g. about 7% of their GDP each year in the 1990s. Hundreds of billions of Euros. And what do they do? Complain! When do the ungrateful idiots ever stop & ask where they'd be if they'd behaved the same way, but without the vast wealth wasted on propping them up?

 

 

A bit unfair as much of what happened in Greece is hardly to do with ordinary Greeks and much of that money went off shore before it interacted with the Greek economy at all.

[savantu]

In other news Aleksander Lukashenko recognized the new Kiev leadership. I wouldn't be surprised if Belorussians will suddenly find themselves without the Belo prefix irrespective of their will.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Nah Greek is so last year. Just read that future school history books in Russia will tell that they are of Aryan decent.

This is what is planned by head of Duma's (parliament) education committee Nikonov. (Source - official duma web page: http://www.duma.gov.ru/news/273/646438/)

 

AFAIK Greeks are also of Arian descent, as well as nearly all nations in Europe, Iranians, Tajiks etc., so it will change nothing. Anyway Greece (Byzantium) is where significant part of Slavic culture and religion came from but not direct ancestors. Teachers but not parents, if we can say so.

By the way Greek mythology and Greek history was significant part of soviet education and culture (probably because it was considered ideologically safe). Even a lot of animation we used to watch in our soviet childhood was based on Greek mypth

 

Heracles visiting Admet (1986)

 

Tesey

 

Argonavty (1971)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6GzdgVsYY4

 

etc.

[Roman Alymov]

In other news Aleksander Lukashenko recognized the new Kiev leadership. I wouldn't be surprised if Belorussians will suddenly find themselves without the Belo prefix irrespective of their will.

It is more likely Lukashenco and Putin play together “good cop and bad cop” game.

[savantu]

 

In other news Aleksander Lukashenko recognized the new Kiev leadership. I wouldn't be surprised if Belorussians will suddenly find themselves without the Belo prefix irrespective of their will.

It is more likely Lukashenco and Putin play together “good cop and bad cop” game.

 

How charming.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Terribly ironic when you consider they gave the world the word 'Spartan'....

 

Do not know how things are in mainland Greece, but Crete mountain peasants seem to be very “Spartan”…..

[ink]

US rebuttal of Russian claims (from the Guardian):

Below is a edited version of the claims and what the US says are the "facts". Again, the full rebuttal can be found here:

 

1. Russia claims: Russian agents are not active in Ukraine.

The Ukrainian government has arrested more than a dozen suspected Russian intelligence agents in recent weeks, many of whom were armed at the time of arrest.

2. Russia claims: pro-Russia demonstrations are comprised exclusively of Ukrainian citizens acting of their own volition, like the Maidan movement in Kiev.

This is not the grassroots Ukrainian civic activism of the EuroMaidan movement, which grew from a handful of student protesters to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians from all parts of the country and all walks of life. Russian internet sites openly are recruiting volunteers to travel from Russia to Ukraine and incite violence.

3. Russia claims: separatist leaders in eastern Ukraine enjoy broad popular support.

The recent demonstrations in eastern Ukraine are not organic and lack wide support in the region. A large majority of Donetsk residents (65.7%) want to live in a united Ukraine and reject unification with Russia.

4. Russia claims: the situation in eastern Ukraine risks spiraling into civil war.

What is going on in eastern Ukraine would not be happening without Russian disinformation and provocateurs fostering unrest. It would not be happening if a large Russian military force were not massed on the border, destabilising the situation through their overtly threatening presence.

5. Russia claims: Ukrainians in Donetsk rejected the illegitimate authorities in Kiev and established the independent “People’s Republic of Donetsk”.

A broad and representative collection of civil society and non-governmental organisations in Donetsk categorically rejected the declaration of a “People’s Republic of Donetsk” by the small number of separatists occupying the regional administration building.

6. Russia claims: Russia ordered a “partial drawdown” of troops from the Ukrainian border.

No evidence shows significant movement of Russian forces away from the Ukrainian border.

7. Russia claims: ethnic Russians in Ukraine are under threat.

There are no credible reports of ethnic Russians facing threats in Ukraine.

8. Russia claims: Ukraine’s new government is led by radical nationalists and fascists.

The Ukrainian parliament (Rada) did not change in February. It is the same Rada that was elected by all Ukrainians, comprising all of the parties that existed prior to February’s events, including former president Yanukovych’s Party of Regions. The new government, approved by an overwhelming majority in the parliament – including many members of Yanukovych’s former party – is committed to protecting the rights of all Ukrainians, including those in Crimea.

9. Russia claims: ethnic minorities face persecution in Ukraine from the “fascist” government in Kiev.

Leaders of Ukraine’s Jewish as well as German, Czech and Hungarian communities have all publicly expressed their sense of safety under the new authorities in Kiev.

10. Russia claims: Russia is not using energy and trade as weapons against Ukraine.

Following Russia’s illegal annexation and occupation of Crimea, Russia raised the price Ukraine pays for natural gas by 80% in the past two weeks. In addition, it is seeking more than $11bn in back payments following its abrogation of the 2010 Kharkiv accords.

 

[swerve]

 

Lets not be fair though, its not like Special forces are wholly incapable of wearing local costume. Im sure ive seen a photograph of a WW2 SAS soldier wearing a Fez.

 

Ultimately you cant really tell from how they look, who these people are. Yes, they may be locals. OTOH, that they are dressed like locals means little.

 

They're probably Delta Force then.

 

 

When are the Greeks going to stop whining? They've been given vast sums for the last 43 years, e.g. about 7% of their GDP each year in the 1990s. Hundreds of billions of Euros. And what do they do? Complain! When do the ungrateful idiots ever stop & ask where they'd be if they'd behaved the same way, but without the vast wealth wasted on propping them up?

 

A bit unfair as much of what happened in Greece is hardly to do with ordinary Greeks and much of that money went off shore before it interacted with the Greek economy at all.

A lot of it is to do with ordinary Greeks. A large proportion of the population participated in the political spoils system. Corrupt Greek politics worked by buying off large numbers of voters. Professional associations, trade associations, trade unions - they all supported corrupt politicians who dished out the spoils to their members, & got votes in return. State employees happily took full-time pay for jobs they finished before lunch (or rarely turned up for at all), & had second jobs in the afternoon, for example - & went on strike at the drop of a hat if there was a threat to tighten up. Farmers (a large proportion of the population) ripped off EU funds with the connivance of officials. Pharmacists, lawyers, taxi drivers, & loads of other groups voted for parties which offered them protection from competition, & a lack of interest by the state in their tax affairs. Tax evasion was a national sport, and most of the population benefited from public spending that was promised by politicians who were strangely silent on how it was paid for. Ordinary Greeks in hordes got state jobs or other benefits through connections, whether personal or through the many special interest organisations which lobbied for their members.

 

The myth that ordinary Greeks were ripped off by a few bankers & had no part in the debacle is just that - a myth. Yes, many billions were diverted by a few rich bastards, but most of the hundreds of billions was spent in Greece (though often on imports), & the greater part of that got into the hands of ordinary Greeks. Not every ordinary Greek, of course, but a very. very large proportion of them. And many of that large proportion are in denial about their part in it all, seeing their personal playing of the system as their right, such as the astonishingly large workforce of the tiny state railway network who argue that they have a right to jobs.

[Roman Alymov]

Looks like a pretty bad (not to mention confusing and difficult) time to be a Ukrainian police officer in the east of the country!

Police in Gorlovka (Donetsk region) changing sides

 

Kramatorsk police wearing St. George ribbons

 

Ukrainian riot police came back from Slavyansk - also with St. George ribbons on uniforms

 

Another unit

 

Slavyansk

 

Kharkiv

 

Odessa

[ink]

 

 

Lets not be fair though, its not like Special forces are wholly incapable of wearing local costume. Im sure ive seen a photograph of a WW2 SAS soldier wearing a Fez.

 

Ultimately you cant really tell from how they look, who these people are. Yes, they may be locals. OTOH, that they are dressed like locals means little.

 

They're probably Delta Force then.

 

 

When are the Greeks going to stop whining? They've been given vast sums for the last 43 years, e.g. about 7% of their GDP each year in the 1990s. Hundreds of billions of Euros. And what do they do? Complain! When do the ungrateful idiots ever stop & ask where they'd be if they'd behaved the same way, but without the vast wealth wasted on propping them up?

 

A bit unfair as much of what happened in Greece is hardly to do with ordinary Greeks and much of that money went off shore before it interacted with the Greek economy at all.

A lot of it is to do with ordinary Greeks. A large proportion of the population participated in the political spoils system. Corrupt Greek politics worked by buying off large numbers of voters. Professional associations, trade associations, trade unions - they all supported corrupt politicians who dished out the spoils to their members, & got votes in return. State employees happily took full-time pay for jobs they finished before lunch (or rarely turned up for at all), & had second jobs in the afternoon, for example - & went on strike at the drop of a hat if there was a threat to tighten up. Farmers (a large proportion of the population) ripped off EU funds with the connivance of officials. Pharmacists, lawyers, taxi drivers, & loads of other groups voted for parties which offered them protection from competition, & a lack of interest by the state in their tax affairs. Tax evasion was a national sport, and most of the population benefited from public spending that was promised by politicians who were strangely silent on how it was paid for. Ordinary Greeks in hordes got state jobs or other benefits through connections, whether personal or through the many special interest organisations which lobbied for their members.

 

Much of what you've said is equally true of the UK economy - when/if that collapses I hope you will sing the same tune.

 

Of course the Greek economy (and general Greek work ethic) are far from perfect and of course the EU kept them afloat for a long time (what do you think is happening across Southern Europe?), however, to suggest that ordinary Greeks are somehow to blame for spending hundreds of billions, perhaps trillions, of Euros is giving them way too much credit and places no blame at all on lenders who knew they would be bailed out by the EU and who kept Greek politicians in their pockets.

 

 

The myth that ordinary Greeks were ripped off by a few bankers & had no part in the debacle is just that - a myth. Yes, many billions were diverted by a few rich bastards, but most of the hundreds of billions was spent in Greece (though often on imports), & the greater part of that got into the hands of ordinary Greeks. Not every ordinary Greek, of course, but a very. very large proportion of them. And many of that large proportion are in denial about their part in it all, seeing their personal playing of the system as their right, such as the astonishingly large workforce of the tiny state railway network who argue that they have a right to jobs.

 

 

Back when I was at the LSE I remember a great lecture by a visiting economist from the US - he calculated that at current rates of spending ordinary Greeks could not spend the EU bailout until... well, I can't remember. 2100 maybe. Or more. He also showed how almost none of the bailout would impact the Greek economy in any meaningful way - including the financial sector - and that it would almost instantly be whisked away by foreign creditors. Now, I'm no economist but what he said certainly made sense to me.

 

Eeek! Apologies to all for the massive off topic discussion.

[ink]

 

Looks like a pretty bad (not to mention confusing and difficult) time to be a Ukrainian police officer in the east of the country!

Police in Gorlovka (Donetsk region) changing sides

 

 

The very definition of a failed state.

 

Incidentally, my Russian sucks but I'm very curious about what the guy in the video is saying - any chance of a quick summary?

[bojan]

...

No they dont, I quite agree with you. But they do move as a cohesive unit, which suggests they have trained together

...

Mandatory conscription is good for something.

[Roman Alymov]

 

Police in Gorlovka (Donetsk region) changing sides

 

 

The very definition of a failed state.

 

Incidentally, my Russian sucks but I'm very curious about what the guy in the video is saying - any chance of a quick summary?

 

Start: Cammo man talking by phone to somebody, then say to big man “Decision taken, follow me”. As they walk people greet big man on getting promotion. 0:20 (edited) – green man say he is Russian Army lt.colonel. “From this moment Shiljenko Alexander Fyodorovich (big man – RA) is appointed Gorlovka police chief, all his orders to be obeyed. Your task now is to guide other police officers from there to this place (RA: do not know from where – probably some more police are surrounded somewhere by crowd). There are normal loyal people out there (RA croud?) and I (RA green man) will also be there. Your tasks are maintain order, preventing looting, preventing anatomized building takeover. (1:15) To make you distinct from other Police officers who still not on people’s side, I ask you all to put StGeorge ribbon on your right epaulet. (1:27) Voice behind camera: “Are there ribbons available?” -(1.28) green man “Gentlemen, the problem with ribbons is not solved yet” - “Why?” - green man “Because I got here from Slavyansk through many cordons, you should understand it” – “Will people obey to us?” - green man “They will. I introduced myself, here are my papers” (reaching into the pocket) “Please take a look”

Edited April 14, 2014 by Roman Alymov

[carrierlost]

 

 

Looks like a pretty bad (not to mention confusing and difficult) time to be a Ukrainian police officer in the east of the country!

Police in Gorlovka (Donetsk region) changing sides

 

 

The very definition of a failed state.

 

Incidentally, my Russian sucks but I'm very curious about what the guy in the video is saying - any chance of a quick summary?

 

Roughly it's something like this:

Hello comrades,

- What is your rank?

Lieutenant Colonel (Podpolkovnik)

- Lieutenant Colonel of what?

Lieutenant Colonel of Russian Army

...

Appoints the guy next to him as the chief of local police.

All his orders should be fulfilled. For this moment your duty is to get the normal and loyal

police of officers out from that situation (points around corner) to here. I'll be also there.

Your tasks will be keeping general order, preventing looting and not to allow capturing of buildings

without permission.

He asks the policmen to wear the the georgian ribbon to tell them apart from the other policemen

who have not yet "joined the people".

- Have you got ribbons?

The question regarding ribbons is not solved yet

- Why?

Because I got here from Slavyansk *something else I cant make out*

- Nobody is going to listen to us

They will.

Here are my documents *reaches for pocket*

EDIT: Roman beat me to it.

Edited April 14, 2014 by carrierlost

[Roman Alymov]

"People's army" (do not know who they are) now in control of Slavyansk airfield. White balaklava man: " No single Ukrainian army helicopter will land here. We do not need this Bandera supporters (RA Ukrainian nationalists) here in Eastern Ukrain - or Putin would move in army" . Background voices discuss their new weapons (?) - they are not professionals definitely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eTsXakg4V4

Edited April 14, 2014 by Roman Alymov

[ink]

Thanks Roman and carrierlost.

So wait, is it official then, Russian army is in eastern Ukraine?

[Roman Alymov]

So wait, is it official then, Russian army is in eastern Ukraine?

Do not think so – regular army Golonel going alone from town to town on other country territory and communicating through regular cellular phone is nonsense. But he may well be local man and still retired Russian Army lt.Colonel acting on his own among other locals - there are plenty of Ukrainians in Russian army.

[Roman Alymov]

Civil war democracy in action - Lugansk self-defence forces taking military tracks and weapons from Ukrainian military column, their leader Alexey Mozgovoy (green man speaking) say military men could live back home on regular bus if they wish. Sad-looking army major stands nearby….

Note heavy female presence and lots of civilian cars people arrive on to the scene.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGQvl0Y06S8

 

Same guy earlier last week (April 10) on Russian TV, saying he is looking for Russia support (in Moscow)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQmwnnZh4oY

Edited April 14, 2014 by Roman Alymov

[Juan Sosa]

That is not democracy, that is a mob. Democracy is a lot more that the rule of the will of the majority.

[carrierlost]

Here is radio intercept of group of probable Russian (GRU?) guys that took Slavyanks talking to their commanders after yesterdays shootings. Later commanders want some Russian channel to do an interview and asks gunmen to put someone on who speaks with Ukrainian accent...

 

Intercept is in russian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVDx-TqeWj4&feature=youtu.be

[urbanoid]

Georgia 2008 - Slavyansk 2014.

 

[urbanoid]

I'm pretty sure he must have his dwarven battleaxe hidden somewhere.

[ink]

Civil war democracy in action - Lugansk self-defence forces taking military tracks and weapons from Ukrainian military column, their leader Alexey Mozgovoy (green man speaking) say military men could live back home on regular bus if they wish.

 

I like his jacket - where can I get one?

 

Georgia 2008 - Slavyansk 2014.

Might not be the same guy... maybe.

 

*************************

 

Anyway, it seems pretty certain that Russian intelligence and/or military personnel are on the ground and are taking charge. Frankly, it would be irresponsible of them not to considering how close all this is to Russia. If they just stayed at home and did nothing they wouldn't be doing their jobs properly. Likewise, I expect Western intelligence to have been heavily involved in Maidan - in a totally deniable way, of course - it would be highly unprofessional of them not to.

Edited April 14, 2014 by ink

[Gregory]

Incidentally, my Russian sucks but I'm very curious about what the guy in the video is saying - any chance of a quick summary?

 

 

Apparently police chief in Gorlovka, who resisted Russian incursion, was beaten to death.

 

http://tvrain.ru/articles/ty_kto_podpolkovnik_chego_rossijskoj_armii_kak_zahvatyvali_ovd_v_gorlovke-366875/

Edited April 14, 2014 by Gregory