Jump to content

Recommended Posts

 

Its not for outsiders to solve. GIve aide, financial assistance, yes, Solve the problem, no.

That’s exactly what Russia was doing (remember this 15bln USD) – but West and “pro-european Ukrainians” where against it. And Russia is still pumping gas into Ukraine without any pay coming out, keeping population heated and industry running…..

And this was US help

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 19.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

 

 

A nation which is decades away from societal collapse due to alcoholism, chronic diseases and population decline, to impose its version of " happiness" to neighboring countries is a sick joke...

One should not throw rocks in glass house.

 

 

The only reason why we're in a glass house is because of the Russians. But rest assured, we'll slowly eradicate the cancer they brought on us. We KNOW things can be different and we have a model to follow.

They however will forever be doomed to despotism, poverty, depression and all the nice features associated with a decaying society. And I do not pity them the slightest.

 

There are nations who live in the past. Russia is one of those. That means it has no future. Nothing is done to prepare it for the future. They're too busy to recreate the past.

Edited by savantu
Link to post
Share on other sites

Phrases “The only reason why we're in a glass house is because of the Russians” and “There are nations who live in the past. Russia is one of those” IMHO are not matching in one message. There are 23 years since USSR collapse - so it is high time to stop blaming Russians for own mistakes. By the way while USSR was still alive - Romanian population was growing (I do not know is it a direct link here or just ci-incidence)

Romania Population Growth Rate

Link to post
Share on other sites

Roman, I wasn't reffering to the population topic, but to overall society status. And the cancer brought from Russia, communism, the most despicable creation of the human mind, is still affecting today's society. What's worse, it corrupted the soul and destroyed the backbone of the country.

 

As for population topics, don't worry, we're still 100/km^2. If we drop to 50, no issue, more air and space for everyone.

What's the density in Russia or in Siberia for example ? What's the ratio between russians and chinese people in Siberia over the last decade ?

 

And please don't bring arguments like " Russia is interested in the well being of Ukraine, they're giving them free gas for example ". That's an outright lie. A country where human life wasn't worth the mud needed to cover it in the mass graves cannot be interested in the well being of others.

Russia is working in Ukraine's interest just as much as the cheese in the mouse trap is for the long term well being of the mouse.

Edited by savantu
Link to post
Share on other sites

This is all conveniently forgetting that all Crimea and now East Ukraine is straight from KGB doctrine.

 

- Ferment unhappiness in area where there is large Russian population. "Polite persons" appear.

- Rinse and repeat.

- Lenin said “Probe with a bayonet. If you meet steel, stop. If you meet mush, then push.”

 

Roman, nothing Russians will say will make people trust them more than Lavrov: "There are no Russian troops in Crimea." Or trust again.

 

Hope you guys are happy now, since you reap what you sow.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I really just see someone justifying the annexation of the whole Ukraine ?

 

Somehow the US as part of an international coalition conducting an intervention is wrong.

The West proposing a voluntary trade alliance is wrong.

 

But Russia, invading and annexing is good?

 

Is this RT-net now?

 

Savants, I'm sure, if Russia annexes Ukraine, they'll work on thoes population issues in Siberia.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Roman, I wasn't reffering to the population topic, but to overall society status.

Let me remind you your own words about “A nation which is decades away from societal collapse due to alcoholism, chronic diseases and population decline…” – it is just not true. Face it. You have full right to love or hate Russia or somebody else, but statistics is statistics, and in this particular case numbers are not on your side. What about “society status” – give me the definition of it, for the start. “it corrupted the soul and destroyed the backbone of the country” – you mean “Broken Romania?” I am not sure all post-soviet countries consider themselves broken this way.

 

As for population topics, don't worry, we're still 100/km^2. If we drop to 50, no issue, more air and space for everyone. 94.5/km^2 in fact – high density by Russian standards, but comparable to geographically similar Krasnodarsky Kray (71.6/km^2) and less then in North Caucasus republics (source http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CF%EB%EE%F2%ED%EE%F1%F2%FC_%ED%E0%F1%E5%EB%E5%ED%E8%FF_%F1%F3%E1%FA%E5%EA%F2%EE%E2_%D0%EE%F1%F1%E8%E9%F1%EA%EE%E9_%D4%E5%E4%E5%F0%E0%F6%E8%E8)

 

What's the density in Russia or in Siberia for example ?

Average for Central Federative District (Central european part of Russia) is 59,7/km^2 – above your level of 50, and “more air and space for everyone”, isn’t it? In Siberia much lower due to hard climate.

 

What's the ratio between russians and chinese people in Siberia over the last decade ?

Chineese migration is in fact negligible – living in Siberia is tough even for Russians, imagine what it is for Chineese. Total number of Chineese living in Russia legally and illegaly is estimated to be 200 to 400K, and residing mainly in European part of Russia, not in Siberia. Tajiks and Uzbeks are present in much greater numbers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me remind you your own words about “A nation which is decades away from societal collapse due to alcoholism, chronic diseases and population decline…” – it is just not true. Face it. You have full right to love or hate Russia or somebody else, but statistics is statistics, and in this particular case numbers are not on your side. What about “society status” – give me the definition of it, for the start. “it corrupted the soul and destroyed the backbone of the country” – you mean “Broken Romania?” I am not sure all post-soviet countries consider themselves broken this way.

 

So Germany was justified in their invasion of Russia in WWII? Or would that be WWI?

 

Would Germany have been justified in annexing parts of russia as it saw fit during the fall of communism? Should Finland have taken what they needed/wanted back and been justified when there were people shooting at the government buildings in Moscow with tanks?

Link to post
Share on other sites
So Germany was justified in their invasion of Russia in WWII? Or would that be WWI?

 

Would Germany have been justified in annexing parts of russia as it saw fit during the fall of communism? Should Finland have taken what they needed/wanted back and been justified when there were people shooting at the government buildings in Moscow with tanks?

 

I see no analogy here. Was it l justified for US to unite with Texas Republic?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Roman, if there was actually a revolution where the Crimean's were moving for separation with Ukraine, then there'd be a comparison, sort of (1).

Was there an Alamo incident in Crimea? Perhaps you can point me to the Crimean Declaration of Independence. When did the Crimean forces fight with the Ukrainian forces and capture a significant political figure and use that leverage for their independence?

Lacking that, your analogy falls flat. Further, to compare Texas to the Crimea, properly, with your chosen analogy, Crimea would have to be choosing to join with the EU after its independence from Ukraine and that after Ukraine gained independence from Russia.

Mexico gained independance from Spain in a war of independence. Mexican Texas gained independence from Mexico and then volunteered to join the US. Perhaps they don't cover this in your history classes.

If Mexican Texas had no right/power to separate from Mexico, then Mexico had no right/power to separate from Spain. Your arguing that Russia can annex Crimea BACK is like the Spaniards coming in here and saying "Give us Texas back!". So far, I've not seen them do that. Have you?

Link to post
Share on other sites

First fraise in this Ukrainian report Среди 64 задержанных в связи с захватом здания облгосадминистрации в Харькове россиян не было -exactly like in my translation. Anyway now, 24+ hours later, still no reports of Russians identified among those detained

 

 

I'm guessing that means you haven't read the report past the headline. Or, you did read it, and wanted to present only the part you wanted to present. Which one is it?

 

Meanwhile last group of Ukrainian marines from what was Kerch battalion arrived to mainland Ukraine. Out of 300+ battalion, only 59 remain loyal to Ukraine, some even divorced their wives unwilling to leave Crimea. Source http://ura-inform.com/ru/politics/2014/04/09/na-materik-iz-kryma-pribyla-poslednjaja-gruppa-ukrainskikh-morpekhov

 

 

 

In general the breakdown seems to be - one third of the Ukrainian military joined Russian army, one third stayed in Crimea but left military service and one third left for the mainland. Unattributed sources ( take that for what it's worth) say that at least some of those who joined Russian military will be assigned to serve in Russia, outside Crimea. Which does make some sense - the traitors have served their purpose and are not needed any more.

Edited by Gregory
Link to post
Share on other sites

Luckily there was no Alamo incident in Crimea – bit tis argument (“not enough bloodshed for independence”) is so frequent that even Putin answered on it in his speech, saying

“We keep hearing from the United States and Western Europe that Kosovo is some special case. What makes it so special in the eyes of our colleagues? It turns out that it is the fact that the conflict in Kosovo resulted in so many human casualties. Is this a legal argument? The ruling of the International Court says nothing about this. This is not even double standards; this is amazing, primitive, blunt cynicism. One should not try so crudely to make everything suit their interests, calling the same thing white today and black tomorrow. According to this logic, we have to make sure every conflict leads to human losses.”

Full text is here http://www.serendipity.li/the_saker/putin_speech_20140318.htm

 

Unfortunately, now it seems like Alamo may happen in Lugansk or Donetsk, where armed (but still peacefull) standoff between pro-Russian (or pro-independence) Ukrainian citizens and anti-Russian (or pro-Ukrainian) Ukrainian citizens is in process. If this Alamo happens, it would be nearly impossible to stop civil war in Ukraine and Russian involvement, like it or not.

About Crimean history – it is in fact much more complicated then Texas one, going back to Troy time, changing hands and even whole population, so of course it is not direct analogy – I was trying to give you the idea how it is looked at from inside Russia, nothing more then this.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not sure who this people (beaten up) are – they are reported to be caught provoking crowd by throwing explosives and spraying teargas. May be they are “visiting rock group” (rock groups often misbehave) but anyway this actions were not wise. Note crowd chanting “Kharkiv-Kharkiv”

Another video of the same episode, police escort this guys out while crowd massing around .

Yes, I'm sure they were actually American mercenaries from "Falcon" company. :rolleyes:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Phrases “The only reason why we're in a glass house is because of the Russians” and “There are nations who live in the past. Russia is one of those” IMHO are not matching in one message. There are 23 years since USSR collapse - so it is high time to stop blaming Russians for own mistakes. By the way while USSR was still alive - Romanian population was growing (I do not know is it a direct link here or just ci-incidence)

Romania Population Growth Rate

It was a direct link - while USSR was still alive, it's puppet government in Romania had prohibited all abortions and all forms of contraception in Romania. Hence the horrific conditions in Romanian orphanages in the 80s.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Country is falling apart anyway, troops on the other side of the border are not the reason for it – contrary, it is common believe that foreign invasion threat is usually consolidating, isn’t it? If things turn nasty (for example some creasy Ukrainian official initiating shooting somewhere in Donetsk or Kharkiv) – invasion is inevitable (whatever harmful it may be for Russia itself) and so troops have to be ready and in adequate quantity to suppress any possible resistance and by that keep bloodshed on both sides as limited as possible. But hardly anybody in Russia is happy about this perspective.

I guess under that point of view, NATO would've been justified in invading Russia in the 1990s. To keep the bloodshed as limited as possible.

Edited by Gregory
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It was a direct link - while USSR was still alive, it's puppet government in Romania had prohibited all abortions and all forms of contraception in Romania. Hence the horrific conditions in Romanian orphanages in the 80s.

 

They were very strange puppets then, taking into account that in 1970th-1980th USSR was believed to be world’s No.1 by number of abortions ( total 238 legal abortions in USSR over 1957 to 1990) . But despite of this regrettable statistic , USSR population was also growing…..

Link to post
Share on other sites

They were very strange puppets then, taking into account that in 1970th-1980th USSR was believed to be world’s No.1 by number of abortions ( total 238 legal abortions in USSR over 1957 to 1990) . But despite of this regrettable statistic , USSR population was also growing…..

Yes, Ceaușescu was pretty strange. Still a puppet, though.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess under that point of view, NATO would've been justified in invading Russia in the 1990s. To keep the bloodshed as limited as possible.

 

Gregory, I am not trying to to justify something - there are trained well paid professionals in Foreign Ministry etc. to do this. All I am doing is trying to give you the idea how it is looked from inside Russia, and sometime provide some additional information. You do not have to agree with my point of view, as I do not have to agree with you.

BTW some people here believe NATO did invaded Russia (as Ex-USSR) and blame it for hardships just like savantu do it for Romania.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Roman, you are justifying it. It's right up there in black and white.

You keep throwing out analogies, country X did country/province A so Russia can do Crimea/Ukraine/whomever it wants.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, Roman, you are justifying it. It's right up there in black and white.

 

You keep throwing out analogies, country X did country/province A so Russia can do Crimea/Ukraine/whomever it wants.

Ok, if you see it this way - i will restrain to just information, like this fresh CNN report from Donetsk

Edited by Roman Alymov
Link to post
Share on other sites

City bus full of reportedly English-speaking uniformed men blocked by locals outside Donetsk military administration building. Any idea why they might be?

 

Ukrainian "Impolite people" :). Seems strange to complain about it after supporting the presence of foreign troops in Crimea up until the referendum :).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...