Kiev Is Burning

[Guest Jason L]

Ryan, shovel of salt included?

 

More like:

 

 

[crazyinsane105]

 

and barely more credible

Perhaps she is just playing hard to get. If he offered an economic bailout package he might be on a winner.

 

 

Lol. Here's the background of the story....

 

A friend of mine, his ex lives in Ukraine. He told her I was coming to Europe and asked if she had any lady friends that would be interested in meeting an American guy around the age of late 20s, has an education, a stable job back in the US, etc. etc. Of course she said yes, and now I'm talking to like four of her friends who live in various parts of Ukraine. All of whom are quite gorgeous and keep on calling me a prince, so yeah, economic bailout is a very interesting term to use. I haven't agreed to anything...I'd like to meet at least one of the girls and just hang out with her for a few days and tour Ukraine while I'm at it.

[Guest Jason L]

The attractive english speaking "tour guide" is truly an optimal way to visit Eastern Europe. Not all of them are purely interested in meal tickets/green cards though, although practically speaking it's impossible to tell. Mind you, the same applies dating locally anyway.

 

Don't forget that one of the bigger attractors is not being a drunk, physically abusive and a complete chauvinist, all characteristics that describe much of these girl's dating pool.

 

Odessa has the better looking women anyway compared to Kiev.

[rmgill]

Huh...

http://zbroya.info/en/blog/2650_ukrainian-gun-owners-associations-official-statement/

[X-Files]

[Corinthian]

As for the HUMINT, seems like a lot of similar bullcrap spouted by supporters of Mr. Y. Similar to many "those protesters were all paid by western capitalist imperialists" from early 1989 protests that prepared way for thew downfall of the commies.

 

 

 

Paid protestors is hardly a new conspiracy-theory thing. Been done anywhere. Has happened here often. Which is why a lot of poor people join the protests because there's money or some other benefit (like a free meal) in it. Of course, these poor people paid protestors don't have any ideological motive to join the protest. If they get injured by police, I guess it's a bonus for them especially if the media's cameras caught it. (screaming how their human rights were violated and so can see the $$$ signs for compensation)

 

The drugged food part is the conspiracy-theory questionable thing however. Unless by drugs that's marijuana. Some protestors are of the drug-using ilk and take the time to imbibe on such drugs just because they want to. I know a friend who joined a leftist rally back in our college days, and they'd eat cake with marijuana because they thought they were cool being rebels and all that stupid immature shit.

Edited February 24, 2014 by TomasCTT

[Fritz]

Lots of photos from the residence of the ousted, uh, chief prosecutor?...

 

http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/search?updated-min=2014-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&updated-max=2015-01-01T00:00:00%2B02:00&max-results=18

 

The guy filled it with his own portraits... I mean, seriously?...

 

[Corinthian]

Never ceases to amaze me how nutjobs such people are.

 

When Marcos was ousted, his mansion up north in his home base became a museum open to the public. Thereat, the room of his son had this big painting on the wall. Painting showed his son in princely attire riding a horse charging to battle.

 

At Marcos's mausoleum, there is outside this elaborate self-made myth on the greatness of his and Imelda's lineage, showing a union of two epic clans. Reminded me of Nazi Aryanism and the logic backflips they did to justify their so-called racial superiority.

[LT Ducky]

A guy I work with is Ukrainian, in his late 60's, has a son living in Kiev. Quiet guy, but has been around, told me once he was part of a Soviet agricultural mission to Africa (don't remember what country) - I asked what language they used for instruction he replied 'English' even though Russian is his first language.

 

This morning I had a very brief conversation with him, I remarked that Yukanovitch had fled Kiev and asked this was a good or bad thing - he replied 'good'. I then mentioned seeing pictures of Temoshenko in Kiev and that she was out of jail. With a little smile he said 'they are all crooks'.

[Corinthian]

In countries that have seen a dictatorial corrupt regime, the leaders of the opposition used to be part of the regime but were kicked out for one reason or the other, or are rich people who found their businesses either taken away from them by the regime or stifled by competition from the regime's economic supporters/cronies.

 

This, in turn, makes these varying leaders having all sorts of reasons to go against the regime. And when they kick out the regime and end up in power, revenge is often in their minds - and that includes being corrupt to get back what they lost, and some more.

[crazyinsane105]

In countries that have seen a dictatorial corrupt regime, the leaders of the opposition used to be part of the regime but were kicked out for one reason or the other, or are rich people who found their businesses either taken away from them by the regime or stifled by competition from the regime's economic supporters/cronies.

 

This, in turn, makes these varying leaders having all sorts of reasons to go against the regime. And when they kick out the regime and end up in power, revenge is often in their minds - and that includes being corrupt to get back what they lost, and some more.

 

Exactly like Pakistan...all the folks in the 'opposition' have been in power during some point of time, or colluded with their opponents before being kicked out for some shady reason.

 

The attractive english speaking "tour guide" is truly an optimal way to visit Eastern Europe. Not all of them are purely interested in meal tickets/green cards though, although practically speaking it's impossible to tell. Mind you, the same applies dating locally anyway.

 

Don't forget that one of the bigger attractors is not being a drunk, physically abusive and a complete chauvinist, all characteristics that describe much of these girl's dating pool.

 

Odessa has the better looking women anyway compared to Kiev.

 

Haha I know. Half of my friends in the US are Russians, and they have excellent stories to tell me about the local dating pool women have to face in Ukraine. I honestly wouldn't mind settling down with a nice Ukrainian girl if it came to that. Some of them are very nice girls who are looking for a nice guy to marry and start a new life. I have met the types in this country who marry people for papers and divorce them right after...trust me, it's quite easy to tell them apart from the nice girls.

 

I might visit Odessa...talking to another girl over there, but she's out of town this week so she can't respond to my emails right now. Hopefully I can visit her as well

[Corinthian]

 

but she's out of town this week so she can't respond to my emails right now. Hopefully I can visit her as well

 

Doubtlessly planning and plotting another protest. My, you really like naughty naughty troublemakers, eh?

Edited February 25, 2014 by TomasCTT

[T19]

 

 

In countries that have seen a dictatorial corrupt regime, the leaders of the opposition used to be part of the regime but were kicked out for one reason or the other, or are rich people who found their businesses either taken away from them by the regime or stifled by competition from the regime's economic supporters/cronies.

 

This, in turn, makes these varying leaders having all sorts of reasons to go against the regime. And when they kick out the regime and end up in power, revenge is often in their minds - and that includes being corrupt to get back what they lost, and some more.

Exactly like Pakistan...all the folks in the 'opposition' have been in power during some point of time, or colluded with their opponents before being kicked out for some shady reason.

The attractive english speaking "tour guide" is truly an optimal way to visit Eastern Europe. Not all of them are purely interested in meal tickets/green cards though, although practically speaking it's impossible to tell. Mind you, the same applies dating locally anyway.

 

Don't forget that one of the bigger attractors is not being a drunk, physically abusive and a complete chauvinist, all characteristics that describe much of these girl's dating pool.

 

Odessa has the better looking women anyway compared to Kiev.

Haha I know. Half of my friends in the US are Russians, and they have excellent stories to tell me about the local dating pool women have to face in Ukraine. I honestly wouldn't mind settling down with a nice Ukrainian girl if it came to that. Some of them are very nice girls who are looking for a nice guy to marry and start a new life. I have met the types in this country who marry people for papers and divorce them right after...trust me, it's quite easy to tell them apart from the nice girls.

 

I might visit Odessa...talking to another girl over there, but she's out of town this week so she can't respond to my emails right now. Hopefully I can visit her as well

A buddy of mine sponsored a Ukrainian girl and married her. Says best thing he ever did. She is clean as hell. Respectful hardworking and omg she is a great cook. Can squeeze a quarter and three dimes fall out. Oh yeah. She is hot.

[Corinthian]

Post useless without pic.

 

Ok, I'm packing my bags for the Ukraine.

 

They need my help.

 

mwuhahahahahahahahaha

[crazyinsane105]

Post useless without pic.

 

Ok, I'm packing my bags for the Ukraine.

 

They need my help.

 

mwuhahahahahahahahaha

 

We can start a thread....

[Marcello]

Thing is, Id like us to get along with Russia. All this disagreeing over Russias frontiers is just SOOO 20th Century. The world has moved on, and whilst our own political leaders for some time tried to freeze Russia out on the world stage (which we should not have done) and made them feel alarmed over ABM (which was a pointless ground of contention imho), its still harder to see why the Russians would want their security of their pre 1990s borders. They probably have more European and global influence now with their economic power and energy sources than they ever had when they had several tank armies poised on Europe's doorstep. More so, because their ability and willingness to squeeze the west economic balls is inherently more plausible than 3rd Shock Army leading the big tank parade through Paris ever was.

 

I still think a major source of the problem is Putins, not Russia's, mindset. And until he goes or falls foul of the polar bear he is wrestling this month, im not sure anything can or will change.

 

Part of the reason Russia gets the leverage it has is that they played the backyard geopolitical games (who gets to build which pipelines where, who allows the basing of whom etc.) instead of just sitting back and letting the West play. Just because the ideological dimension went away it does not mean western and russian interest will always coincide; whatever good faith the russians might have had towards western idealism, if there was any to begin with, has been dispelled anyway.

 

Putin is by no means out of step with russian mindset. What some of his most prominent opponents have said about where russian borders should lay make Puting look like refreshingly moderate. In the event I doubt bringing Ukraine under Moscow rule is something he is striving for, it is likely to be more about foreign policy orientation,basing rights, trade and so on.

[bojan]

Civilized.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kutuzov-monument-demoliotion-594/

[urbanoid]

Good, he shouldn't have beaten Napoleon.

[ink]

 

 

 

And technically he is right, it is a coup.

Is it? The parliament has voted to impeach him, which AFAIK is perfectly legal under the laws of Ukraine. He was president, recognised by opposition leaders as such, the police were obeying him, & he had signed an agreement under which he approved such things as reversion to the 2004 constitution (since voted through by the Rada), & then he disappeared, resurfacing far from Kiev saying 'It was a coup! Fascists have taken over!" He ran away & his government fell apart. With no orders, the police gave up trying to enforce his wishes. How is that a coup?

 

He's almost certainly guilty of massive theft & abuse of power. People who tried to look into his personal finances have been murdered. He's abandoned his responsibilities as president. So what's wrong with the parliament voting to impeach him, calling early elections, & setting up a transitional government?

 

There's another thing to consider. He ceased to exercise the powers of his office. If he did so because his subordinates stopped obeying him, that's not a coup, it's a collapse in his credibility & authority, which is not a coup. A leader who loses the confidence of his people & the apparatus of the state to such an extent that he can no longer exercise his powers is incapable, just as someone is who's lost his faculties. He has to be replaced. Any sensible constitution has a method for doing so, & impeachment is one of those methods.

 

If he ceased to exercise his powers because he chose to flee from them, then he has, in effect, resigned. Impeachment formalises that. Abandonment of office is usually one of the causes for replacement allowed for in constitutions.

 

 

It certainly isn't a coup. That's the wrong word. What is certain is that the government was overthrown violently. Maybe that's a revolution then but it certainly isn't a democratic, peaceful change of government.

 

Also, as someone who has little faith in revolutions as a force for good, I would also add that it isn't likely to be very beneficial to the people of the Ukraine in the long-run.

 

Anyway, it isn't over yet so we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Overthrown violently? To me, it looked as if the government over-reacted to a pretty harmless demonstration (it had been going on for three months without having much impact on state business) by attempting to crush it violently, using plain-clothes thugs to beat up demonstrators. This is a government whose critics kept being abducted & beaten, & on a few occasions, murdered.

 

The violence against the few hundred occupiers of the square provoked a mass reaction, with much larger numbers (tens to hundreds of thousands) turning out to protest. The government over-reacted again, killing several dozen people. There was also violence on the other side, but much less. It then became apparent that the government had shot its bolt. It had reached the limit of the violence it could use, with the army being unwilling to intervene, & the force the police could or would use not being sufficient to quell the protests. The opposite, in fact: they'd killed enough to provoke revulsion, without killing enough to suppress the demonstrations.

 

So the government had to back down. It had played the violence card, & had lost. By killing Ukrainians, it had lost much of its own support. A large part of its parliamentary support defected, police were defecting in large numbers, & the army wouldn't obey. It had forfeited legitimacy.

 

That isn't a violent overthrow of the government. It's a government discovering the limits of its power in a civil society. It tried to overstep the mark, & failed. The apparatus of the state stopped obeying it, because it tried to use that apparatus illegitimately. That is good. It is a lesson to others.

 

 

I - very belatedly but respectuflly - disagree. While it is clear that the regime failed to maintain security and fell apart as a result I also think that the protests were very violent. I don't know if you saw footage of the early skirmishes with the police but it was abundantly clear that the radical elements amongst the protestors - probably Right Sektor and Svoboda - were deliberately trying to escalate the situation. Their tactics were extremely violent and are likely to have been what led to such a disproportionate reaction from the police (who looked lost and impotent at the begining). To portray this as "there was some violence [...] but not much" is misleading. That the security forces used 'underhand' tactics such as snatch-squads and brutal beatings is undeniable and inexcusable and didn't acheive the desired results, however, elements amongst the protestors were clearly experienced in these situations and determined enough to force the hand of the state. These elements and the remainder of the peaceful protestors are often lumped together as one faction but I believe that they are not. An acquaintance on the protestor side of things in Kiev tells me that the radicals numbered probably no more than a thousand - I am sure this is true but they were still the ones who radicalised the protests, made them violent, deliberately forced the authorities to be violent and were at the forefront of bringing the regime to an end after a truce had been agreed between the opposition and Yanukovich. There is a danger they will benefit politically from this when the new government is formed and that their role in all this is far from over.

 

You spoke of the legitimacy of government - and I agree wholeheartedly that the Yanukovich regime had de-legitimised itself to the point that its demise was not only desirable but also perhaps inevitable, however, this should and could have been carried out at the ballot box in 2015 at pre-arranged elections (or at early elections if these could be forced through peaceful protest - as is very possibly the case and as was agreed as part of the truce). As a counter-point, I would question the legitimacy of this method of a change in government - i.e. in which the opinion of the majority of Ukrainians is not checked or tested in any way at all and the 'survey' is ultimately only of those whose discontent is powerful enough to drive them to protest during sub-zero temperatures. The fact is that even if there were 100,000 people on the squares of Kiev at the height of the protests, this is still a very small sample of the Ukraine's ~40m population - and a far from democratic way of changing the government in a country in which, in spite of corruption and vote-rigging, democratic, peaceful change was still possible.

[X-Files]

 

 

 

. I don't know if you saw footage of the early skirmishes with the police but it was abundantly clear that the radical elements amongst the protestors - probably Right Sektor and Svoboda - were deliberately trying to escalate the situation. Their tactics were extremely violent and are likely to have been what led to such a disproportionate reaction from the police (who looked lost and impotent at the begining). To portray this as "there was some violence [...] but not much" is misleading. That the security forces used 'underhand' tactics such as snatch-squads and brutal beatings is undeniable and inexcusable and didn't acheive the desired results, however, elements amongst the protestors were clearly experienced in these situations and determined enough to force the hand of the state. These elements and the remainder of the peaceful protestors are often lumped together as one faction but I believe that they are not.

 

Similar to what the American Black Bloc element within the "Occupy" movement tried, along with their efforts at various WTO protests.

 

*

 

 

Russia says won't deal with "mutineers" who took power in Ukraine

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-says-wont-deal-mutineers-170039537.html

[X-Files]

I dont recall the American police trying to charge the WTO protests with armoured cars. And as pointed out by others, the US Government doesnt make a habit of kidnapping its citizens off the street, let alone murder So when you get down to it, you cant really compare this to anything that happens in America. Unless you right back to the tax dodgers making a big cup of tea in Boston harbour.

 

You are restricting the arguments to HOW the protest was dealt with, and passing over the context of why the protest happened.

 

Reading comprehension time - Ink mentioned agent provocateurs among the Ukrainian protestors that wanted to escalate the situation, so there is a linear comparison to Anarch tactics in the US. You do know that radicals share and learn from each other, to the point that some of the radial Euros have even come over to support events in the US?

 

Also for 'restricting' arguments, where's that happening? It's a conversation, it meanders. If you're not interested the exchange, move on to a post you are.

 

And as for the Boston tax dodgers, that move ultimately sent the smarmy peckerwoods home with their tails tucked between their legs.

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by X-Files

[rmgill]

 

 

 

Come on, you guys hate us because your most esteemed rights are because of us. Hell, you even got to rename the White House because of the Royal Marines.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n725zX3zIk0

 

[sunday]

BTW, opinions on the Ukrainian and the Venezuelan protests compared? Or could a new thread be better?

[bd1]

Good, he shouldn't have beaten Napoleon.

 

and kutuzov was after all only a pc-candidate...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Andreas_Barclay_de_Tolly

 

 

(btw, the house behind the statue, now Barclay Hotel, was once the HQ of 326. heavy bomber division´s commander, Dzohhar Dudayev, first president of Chechnya)

Edited February 25, 2014 by bd1

[Corinthian]

 

 

As a counter-point, I would question the legitimacy of this method of a change in government - i.e. in which the opinion of the majority of Ukrainians is not checked or tested in any way at all and the 'survey' is ultimately only of those whose discontent is powerful enough to drive them to protest during sub-zero temperatures. The fact is that even if there were 100,000 people on the squares of Kiev at the height of the protests, this is still a very small sample of the Ukraine's ~40m population - and a far from democratic way of changing the government in a country in which, in spite of corruption and vote-rigging, democratic, peaceful change was still possible.

 

 

 

Hmmmm.... Sounds very familiar....

 

I dunno much on Ukraine, but this part of your post I agree, since the Philippines has experienced that several times some years ago.

 

Indeed, popular protests and rallies don't necessarily reflect the opinions of the vast majority of a country's population. Over here, that issue was raised back when there were many protests against the previous administration. The "angry mob" may have looked impressive in the streets, but those were just a few tens to hundreds of thousands compared to the metropolis population of ten million (and a country population of eighty million). The protesters looked powerful and numerous thanks to the interwebz where, free from traditional media that were either pro or critical of the government, and so free to disseminate their own message.

 

And then there is also the socio-economic divide. Since many of these protestors have access to the internet which is more of a upper and middle class thing, the lower economic classes which form the bulk of the population were "underrepresented."

 

So... popular uprisings, unless it crosses all socio-economic strata which can be seen by numbers and participants with a common united message (like our very own 1986 Revolution ousting Marcos), cannot exactly be said to be reflective of the majority of the population.

 

ETA:

 

And in the end, it is the loyalty of the military and police forces that matter in the end. Even if the popular uprising consisted of a small portion of the population, if the military and police forces weigh in and support the protests, it's hello regime change.

 

Which is why the previous administration (Macapagal) survived despite the almost yearly major protests against it. The majority and influential portions of the military and police forces were firmly on her side.

Edited February 26, 2014 by TomasCTT