Kiev Is Burning

[Stefan Kotsch]

18 minutes ago, old_goat said:

that Maidan, the beginning of the conflict, was a CIA operation

Don't forget the CIA & western & fascist coup in Hungary in 1956. Fortunately for the Hungarians, the putschists were shot down by the Soviet army.

[ink]

14 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

This is far from reality. Ukraine does not have more Nazis than any other country. Hungary included.

Maybe not (although neither of us have figures at hand, I imagine, to prove it one way or the other), but certainly they definitely had, prior to 2022 (and since, probably) more Nazis in government and with military style structures, than anywhere in Europe since... I guess, WWII, although there might be more recent examples.

[Stefan Kotsch]

Yes, OK.

But that has been said many times before. How different was Hitler's Germany from Stalin's empire? Didn't the Ukrainians ultimately find the Germans less unpleasant than the Russians? If so, why? Hatred of Jews? That was acceptable all over the world at that time. The idea of fascism was also widespread at that time. Even in the USA and Great Britain.

It's complicated.

I am annoyed by this fifth-grader level of the fairy tale of denazification

Edited December 3, 2024 by Stefan Kotsch

[ink]

33 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Didn't the Ukrainians ultimately find the Germans less unpleasant than the Russians? 

They did f***ing not.

Just because some local nutjobs managed to scrape through by collaborating and then creating their own mini nazi-like movement, doesn't mean that most Ukrainians during WWII didn't live through hell on earth during the Nazi occupation.

 

Banderists =/= Ukrainians

 

[Stefan Kotsch]

OK, I accept that. Then the question about the Nazi problem in Ukraine would be answered.

[Yama]

It's certainly not hard to find young people who condone Nazi-like ideologies, and/or adore Third Reich symbolism. Including, and especially in, Russia:

This despite the obvious fact that Nazis sought to destroy Russia and caused innumerable suffering there. So it can be hardly a surprise that there were, and are, such people and movements in Ukraine too. However it would be absurd to claim they held some kind of political power there. To gain political power you need to get organized, and that is something almost completely alien with modern Nazi movements.

[Roman Alymov]

13 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Russia does not liberated anyone in Ukraine.   .

    It is your strange ideas, but they are up to you in your places far away fron Russia. 

13 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

The Russians never had any problems with the Nazis. 

   What a nice combination of words  - it reminds me liberal claims of "Terrorism has no religeon". Instead of "Soviets never had any problems with the Nazis" or "Russians never had any problems with Germans" you pretend it was not German cultural phenomen that became known as Nazism. Re "if Germany hadn't invaded the Soviet Union, relations with the Nazis would have been fine to this day" - let me remind you USA, the lighthouse of free world, never declared war on Germany and Japan (who were hardly any better  - ask Chineese) untill attacked by Japan, and it were Germany&Co who declared war to USA.

    What about the nature of modern Ukr Nazism, i have explained it many times here.

[Mighty_Zuk]

Why are we talking about Nazism on a thread about the Ukraine-Russia war?

[Stuart Galbraith]

God only knows. If they were talking about Russian Fascism they would be surely closer to it.

[Roman Alymov]

6 hours ago, Yama said:

It's certainly not hard to find young people who condone Nazi-like ideologies, and/or adore Third Reich symbolism. Including, and especially in, Russia:

 Most of this young people end up in prisons  - not least because the fact main topic of their protests is the political line of our pro-Western elite.

7 hours ago, Yama said:

This despite the obvious fact that Nazis sought to destroy Russia and caused innumerable suffering there. So it can be hardly a surprise that there were, and are, such people and movements in Ukraine too. 

Let me address you to my old post

 

7 hours ago, Yama said:

  However it would be absurd to claim they held some kind of political power there. To gain political power you need to get organized, and that is something almost completely alien with modern Nazi movements.

  There is no need for modern Nazi in Ukraine to get organised - outside powers do, for whom Nazis are convenient tool.

[Stefan Kotsch]

34 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Why are we talking about Nazism on a thread about the Ukraine-Russia war?

Our Hungarian colleague recently brought up the Russian narrative of denazification again.

[Mighty_Zuk]

45 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Our Hungarian colleague recently brought up the Russian narrative of denazification again.

Who's a Hungarian here?

[Roman Alymov]

Probably belongs here: Two citizens of Poland and citizen of Belorussia, former deputy head of Brest regional military office, arrested in Belorussia for spying https://t.me/belarusian_silovik/45604

[ink]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Why are we talking about Nazism on a thread about the Ukraine-Russia war?

I don't think it's irrelevant.

For one, there were (prior to the invasion) definitely a bunch of right-wing Nazi-like groups that had wiggled their way into government through the back door and were shaping policy. There were also nazi-like armed formations that had been subsumed within the official state-run military and security system.

Now, how seriously you take that is open to question.

These right-wing groups had, apart from a slew of other things, pushed through a law that made it illegal for classes to be taught in Russian (in a country where that was the 1st language of 50% of people... Or more), illegal for state officials to communicate with citizens in Russian, and mandated that service workers (like in a shop or something) had to initiate conversations in Ukrainian.

That's a more Draconian language law than anything passed in Serbia regarding Kosovo and is exactly the kind of state-led repression of a language that ostensibly led to the NATO intervention in 1999.

And even if you think all of that is silly (it isn't*), the Russians used it as justification so, on that alone, it is worth discussing.

 

 

* Imagine, if you will, the outrage if the same kind of language law was passed literally anywhere else in 'civilised' Europe (except the Baltics).

[urbanoid]

40 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Who's a Hungarian here?

Goat.

[Mighty_Zuk]

15 minutes ago, ink said:

And even if you think all of that is silly (it isn't*), the Russians used it as justification so, on that alone, it is worth discussing.

Right, and Hitler justified WW2 by saying Aryans were pretty blondes. But the place to discuss that would be StormFront or PornHub, not TN.

15 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Goat.

I thought he was Arab. My bad.

 

  

15 minutes ago, ink said:

These right-wing groups had, apart from a slew of other things, pushed through a law that made it illegal for classes to be taught in Russian (in a country where that was the 1st language of 50% of people... Or more), illegal for state officials to communicate with citizens in Russian, and mandated that service workers (like in a shop or something) had to initiate conversations in Ukrainian.

Good luck finding someone intelligent who believes that. Imagine actually saying that out loud. That's embarrassing.

Edited December 4, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 minutes ago, ink said:

I don't think it's irrelevant.

For one, there were (prior to the invasion) definitely a bunch of right-wing Nazi-like groups that had wiggled their way into government through the back door and were shaping policy. There were also nazi-like armed formations that had been subsumed within the official state-run military and security system.

Now, how seriously you take that is open to question.

These right-wing groups had, apart from a slew of other things, pushed through a law that made it illegal for classes to be taught in Russian (in a country where that was the 1st language of 50% of people... Or more), illegal for state officials to communicate with citizens in Russian, and mandated that service workers (like in a shop or something) had to initiate conversations in Ukrainian.

That's a more Draconian language law than anything passed in Serbia regarding Kosovo and is exactly the kind of state-led repression of a language that ostensibly led to the NATO intervention in 1999.

And even if you think all of that is silly (it isn't*), the Russians used it as justification so, on that alone, it is worth discussing.

 

 

* Imagine, if you will, the outrage if the same kind of language law was passed literally anywhere else in 'civilised' Europe (except the Baltics).

You dont think the anti gay and anti protest laws in Russia were considerably more repressive?

Say what you will about Ukraine, since Yanukovich they dont have a history of murdering political oponents. Putin does.

[ink]

30 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Right, and Hitler justified WW2 by saying Aryans were pretty blondes. But the place to discuss that would be StormFront or PornHub, not TN.

I thought he was Arab. My bad.

 

  

Good luck finding someone intelligent who believes that. Imagine actually saying that out loud. That's embarrassing.

I guess you haven't followed things very closely, and it shows. So your ignorance is excused, but your churlishness is not.

[ink]

30 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

You dont think the anti gay and anti protest laws in Russia were considerably more repressive?

Oh, I wasn't going for a comparison. Surely if I had done that, I would be accused of whataboutery.

But it is surely nonetheless an issue in Ukraine if some marginalised right-wing groups enter the political arena following a (whatever you may think about it) rather irregular change of political power.

Enough so that we can at least discuss it here without people trying to shut down the discussion itself?

30 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Say what you will about Ukraine, since Yanukovich they dont have a history of murdering political oponents. Putin does.

You won't get any disagreement from me. Russia has been a basketcase in political terms since forever.

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 minutes ago, ink said:

Oh, I wasn't going for a comparison. Surely if I had done that, I would be accused of whataboutery.

But it is surely nonetheless an issue in Ukraine if some marginalised right-wing groups enter the political arena following a (whatever you may think about it) rather irregular change of political power.

Enough so that we can at least discuss it here without people trying to shut down the discussion itself?

You won't get any disagreement from me. Russia has been a basketcase in political terms since forever.

Touche.

 

[Mighty_Zuk]

44 minutes ago, ink said:

I guess you haven't followed things very closely, and it shows. So your ignorance is excused, but your churlishness is not.

Keep lecturing a Ukrainian about things in Ukraine, lol.

[ink]

3 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Keep lecturing a Ukrainian about things in Ukraine, lol.

More like lecturing a kid about life in the real world, if you ask me.

[ink]

In other news:

Up to 100 ‘suspicious incidents’ in Europe can be attributed to Russia, Czech minister says

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/04/up-to-100-suspicious-incidents-in-europe-can-be-attributed-to-russia-czech-minister-says

 

Edited December 4, 2024 by ink

[Mighty_Zuk]

59 minutes ago, ink said:

More like lecturing a kid about life in the real world, if you ask me.

Why don't you actually go visit Ukraine before talking bullshit you don't understand.

I speak there Russian freely. All my family there, too. They don't know Ukrainian. 

Edited December 4, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[ink]

9 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Why don't you actually go visit Ukraine before talking bullshit you don't understand.

I speak there Russian freely. All my family there, too. They don't know Ukrainian. 

https://hungary.mfa.gov.ua/news/72567-explanation-onthe-law-of-ukraine-on-ensuring-the-functioning-of-the-ukrainian-language-as-the-state-language

Anyway, I'm done taking to you. Your posts are blinkered fanboy garbage at best and I can't be bothered making the effort to take you seriously any more.

Edited December 4, 2024 by ink