Kiev Is Burning

[glenn239]

3 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Generally a minor squabble, they backstabbed us in 1920 when we had a problem, we did the same and took the place back in 1938, when they had a problem.

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

[Yama]

25 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

Maybe that was not the brightest spot in history of Poland, but really it would be absurd to argue it would have mattered to Nazis at all had Poland stayed out of it. Hitler (and not just him, but many Germans) saw Polish state an anathema which should not be allowed to exist.

Also, in general sense, post-WW1 border drawing in Eastern Europe was done in a hurry and left a ton of open issues and quarrels, some of which still remain today.

[Roman Alymov]

6 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

   I think it is not correct to say that "in 1938 Poland sided with Hitler". I would rather put it another way: in this years, Germany led by "collective Hitler" and Poland led by "collective  Piłsudski"*  were practicing simmilar political lines and this lines were not so different from best practicies by other imperialist powers. In fact, Poland and, to less ectent, Germany were trying to imitate the habits of "old" colonial empires of Western Europe - they came too late to the table to get overseas colonies, and were too weak to fight for them, so were trying to establish own colonits just east of their places where locals were unable to provide organised resistance

(slogan  - "Power/strength of Poland is in colonies")

Still, overseas colonies were also wanted (slogan - "Ask for overseas colonies for Poland")

As far as i remember, Poland was trying to negotiate control over northern part of Madagaskar (with plans to then resettle Polish Jews to this colony).

* Yes i remember Piłsudski personally died in 1935

 

Edited November 8, 2024 by Roman Alymov

[Roman Alymov]

Barn-tanks assault https://t.me/creamy_caprice/7423

[Roman Alymov]

Improvided armored car (made from old good GAZ-66) vs. pro-Ukr armor (not clear what type), Ugledar region. Interestingly, GAZ-66 wins  - as fleing enemy vehicle was later abandoned https://t.me/creamy_caprice/7417

[Roman Alymov]

 

[seahawk]

Those are Russian soldiers fighting for Russia - there is no such thing as Ukrainians.

[Roman Alymov]

11 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Those are Russian soldiers fighting for Russia - there is no such thing as Ukrainians.

Patrick Lancaster is foreigner so it is strange to expect him to go deep into details, especially when it comes to writing headlines.

[Stuart Galbraith]

10 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Technically speaking, most of Poland was not annexed by Reich (unlike Austria) but was colonised ( with Generalgouvernement esteblished), quite in line with colonial practice of other European powers of that time. The only major difference was that locals were white, not colored (but who cares about color since they were Untermensch anyway).

You should tell that to a Pole, they will be thrilled.

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 hours ago, Yama said:

Maybe that was not the brightest spot in history of Poland, but really it would be absurd to argue it would have mattered to Nazis at all had Poland stayed out of it. Hitler (and not just him, but many Germans) saw Polish state an anathema which should not be allowed to exist.

Also, in general sense, post-WW1 border drawing in Eastern Europe was done in a hurry and left a ton of open issues and quarrels, some of which still remain today.

Ding, ding, ding! We have the correct answer!

And of course the same was true of the USSR. They didnt hate Poland because it had invaded Czechoslovakia (a justification btw, that would mean invading the Reich also). They hated Poland because they had halted the invasion of 1920, and Stalin wanted payback.

[urbanoid]

8 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

Czechs, it was from the Czech part. 

About us much consequences internationally as Czechoslovakia suffered in 1920 after taking that piece while we were fighting the Reds, which is none at all, or close. I don't think it had any influence on 1939 events, when the western allies did what they were supposed to do. Again, even the nuclear bomb transported from the future and dropped on Berlin couldn't have helped us at the time.

[Pavel Novak]

18 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Generally speaking, non-aggression pacts have less credibility in international relations than do alliances.

No doubt you are more familiar with the history than I am, but I see in reading this morning, I see that Moscow first threatened Warsaw with the denouncement of the non-aggression pact in 1938.  This was during the Munich Crisis when the USSR was partially mobilizing to deter Germany, and Poland then sided with Hitler, both to block cooperation in the defense of the Czechs by the Soviets, as well as to annex parts of Slovakia by force.  

 Poland, now having done this and helping to cause a geopolitical vacuum in Central Europe that had blown Soviet security wide open, you suggest that in the case of the pending Nazi-Polish war in 1939 that the Soviets should stick to the letter of the treaty and allow Hitler to occupy all of Poland?   The Poles vetoed Soviet troops on their soil in 1939.  The Soviets could never tolerate Germany having a border right up on the outskirts of Minsk.

Soviets could cancel it in 1938 but they did not. No judging here.

But in 1939 it was still valid yet Soviets had no issue preparing invasion of Poland together with Nazi Germany. One would expect that whole point of non-aggression pact is not to do exactly this.

[Pavel Novak]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Czechs, it was from the Czech part. 

About us much consequences internationally as Czechoslovakia suffered in 1920 after taking that piece while we were fighting the Reds, which is none at all, or close. I don't think it had any influence on 1939 events, when the western allies did what they were supposed to do. Again, even the nuclear bomb transported from the future and dropped on Berlin couldn't have helped us at the time.

Slovak parts too in 1938. Even that small battle (two dead on both sides) was about slovak territory. Greatly helped Tiso to legitimize slovak participation in 1939 invasion.

[urbanoid]

6 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

Slovak parts too in 1938. Even that small battle (two dead on both sides) was about slovak territory. Greatly helped Tiso to legitimize slovak participation in 1939 invasion.

Right, my mistake.

[seahawk]

10 hours ago, Yama said:

Maybe that was not the brightest spot in history of Poland, but really it would be absurd to argue it would have mattered to Nazis at all had Poland stayed out of it. Hitler (and not just him, but many Germans) saw Polish state an anathema which should not be allowed to exist.

Also, in general sense, post-WW1 border drawing in Eastern Europe was done in a hurry and left a ton of open issues and quarrels, some of which still remain today.

Not Poland as such, but in the form of the territory of the time. Always remember that from a German perspective, they had been attacked by Russia at the start of WW1, then defeated Russia and then had to hand over a lot of territory to Poland with the Versailles treaty. A country which did not even exist at the start of WW1. It was obvious that the Soviet Union and Germany would be very eager to reverse this at the first opportunity.

[Yama]

It goes way beyond WW1, famously Bismarck said that eradication of Poles was necessity for Germans to survive.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Kinda Ironic, in that it was due to those selfsame poles there is now a United Germany, purely down to their actions.

[Roman Alymov]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ding, ding, ding! We have the correct answer!

And of course the same was true of the USSR. They didnt hate Poland because it had invaded Czechoslovakia (a justification btw, that would mean invading the Reich also). They hated Poland because they had halted the invasion of 1920, and Stalin wanted payback.

Let me remind it was Poles who have invaded (and even took Kiev on May 7, 1920). So it was Red Army who have "halted the invasion".  Probably you know this iconic picture of Lenin - but few people remember it is Lenin speaking on May 5, 1920 urging workers of Moscow to join Red Army to stop Poles as frontline is collapsing

[Stuart Galbraith]

I dont need to remind you that Ukraine was independent at this point, and therefore absolutely none of the Soviets business, anymore than was Georgia or the Baltic states, let alone a need for 'halting the invasion', since it was no part of your country that was being invaded.

No, I probably DO need to remind you of it.

[Roman Alymov]

Photo of what is believed to be #84 confirmed loss of M109 SPG - interestingly, it looks like it burned out without detonation https://t.me/boris_rozhin/143657

[sunday]

51 minutes ago, Yama said:

It goes way beyond WW1, famously Bismarck said that eradication of Poles was necessity for Germans to survive.

Interesting. Did not recall that, but considering Bismarck politics and policies, it makes sense.

So, the known Poland's struggle to survive between two empires becomes even more commendable.

[Roman Alymov]

3 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I dont need to remind you that Ukraine was independent at this point, and therefore absolutely none of the Soviets business, anymore than was Georgia or the Baltic states, let alone a need for 'halting the invasion', since it was no part of your country that was being invaded.

No, I probably DO need to remind you of it.

Actually, it was not as by summer of 1919 the remains of so called UNR (UPR) were occupied by Polish forces (and before that, UNR forces were crushed not by Red Army, But by White Army (namely Denikin forces)

"After the defeat of the Central Powers in World War I, the Hetmanate regime lost its external allies and its position became precarious. On November 13, 1918, former members of the Central Rada, headed by Vladimir Vinnichenko, formed the Directory of the Ukrainian People's Republic, the most influential figure of which would later become Simon Petliura. The directory began an armed struggle with the Hetman. Already on December 14, the Directory's troops occupied Kiev, the Hetmanate regime fell, and the UPR was restored. Since February 1919, after Vinnichenko's resignation from the post of chairman of the Directory, Petlyura became the de facto head of the UPR.

The leadership of the UPR established close relations with another Ukrainian state entity — the West Ukrainian People's Republic, proclaimed on the lands of the former Austro-Hungarian Galicia inhabited by Ukrainians and under pressure from Poland. On December 1, 1918, the delegates of the Directory and the ZUNR signed in the city of Fastov a preliminary agreement on the unification of both Ukrainian republics into one state, and on January 22, 1919, the solemn proclamation of the Act on the Unification of the UNR and the ZUNR on a federal basis (the Act of Zluka) took place in Kiev.

On November 17, 1918, the Provisional Workers' and Peasants' Government of Ukraine was established in Moscow, headed by G. Pyatakov, whose armed formations launched an offensive against Ukraine in December. On January 16, 1919, the Directory declared war on Soviet Russia, in which it was defeated — already in February, the Red Army took Kiev. The Ukrainian SSR was declared restored. By March, of the major cities of Ukraine, only Zhytomyr and Vinnytsia were under the control of the UPR.

In the summer of 1919, taking advantage of the beginning of the offensive of Denikin's troops into Ukraine, the troops of the Directory together with the military formations of the ZUNR — the so—called Galician Army - launched a counteroffensive and on August 30 (simultaneously with the Whites) occupied Kiev, but the next day they were expelled from there by the White Guards. The command of the Armed Forces of South of Russia refused to negotiate with Petliura, and by October 1919 the Petliurists had been defeated. In early November, the command of the Galician Army signed an agreement with the command of the Volunteer Army. At the end of 1919, the head of the ZUNR, Yevgeny Petrushevich, denounced the Act of Unification.

Petlyura fled to Warsaw, where, on behalf of the Directory, on April 21, 1920, he concluded an agreement with the Polish government on a joint war against Soviet Russia on the terms of recognizing the transfer of Western Ukrainian lands to Poland beyond the former Russian-Austrian border. After the end of the Polish-Soviet war and the signing of the peace treaty, the UPR finally ceased to exist as a real state entity."

   By the way brother of my Grandgrandfather was Denikin's officer - unfortunatelly, we do not have any memoirs from him.

   

[urbanoid]

45 minutes ago, sunday said:

Interesting. Did not recall that, but considering Bismarck politics and policies, it makes sense.

So, the known Poland's struggle to survive between two empires becomes even more commendable.

Haut doch die Polen, daß sie am Leben verzagen; ich habe alles Mitgefühl für ihre Lage, aber wir können, wenn wir bestehn wollen, nichts andres tun, als sie ausrotten; der Wolf kann auch nicht dafür, daß er von Gott geschaffen ist, wie er ist, und man schießt ihn doch dafür totd, wenn man kann.

Hit the Poles so hard that they despair of their life; I have full sympathy with their condition, but if we want to survive, we can only exterminate them; the wolf, too, cannot help having been created by God as he is, but people shoot him for it if they can.

[seahawk]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

It goes way beyond WW1, famously Bismarck said that eradication of Poles was necessity for Germans to survive.

This is a quote out of context. The quote has to be understood as meaning that Poles (catholic) would never become citizens of the German Reich (protestant). Therefore they were considered foes of the empire (Reichsfeinde).  But they were not alone, Bismarck considered political Catholicism, the Danish minority,  the French minority, the labour movement and others as foes of the empire.

[Roman Alymov]

On 3/22/2018 at 7:39 PM, Roman Alymov said:

Now it is official: Nadejda Savchenko, Hero of Ukraine and personal protégé of US President (and many other Western politicians and Russian liberals) arrested today in Ukrainian Parliament by SBU on accusations of planning destroying Parliament building by two hand granades she was planning to throw personally + mortar fire from ship on Dniper river+MG fire on survivors. Also accused of planning to shoot Ukr President car with DNR-produced 12.7mm rifle. President Poroshenko have congratulated SBU with uncovering Russian plot.

https://112.international/ukraine-top-news/poroshenko-commented-lifting-of-immunity-detention-of-savchenko-26861.html

Poroshenko commented lifting of immunity, detention of Savchenko

 

High time for Putin to send couple of armor divisions to #FreeSavchenko, as he was asked by Western partners so many times.

Do you still remember Nadejda Savchenko, the entire FreeWorld was demanding to be released from Russian captivity? Fresh news about her from Mariana Bezuglaya, former deputy head of Ukr Parliament Defence commetee and acting MP:

"The network reported that Nadezhda Savchenko is fighting as a company commander in one of the Territorial Defence brigades. However, no one wrote that, as I learned, it was her unauthorized and unexpected order to retreat the unit that caused the "domino effect" of the breakthrough in Ocheretino, which launched cascading processes of forming the Russian offensive on Pokrovsk. 

Pay attention to the radiostation (on the photo on Savcjenko in original TG message - RA) that Savchenko uses-this is exactly the type that is easily listened to by Russians. 

I ask the Security Service of Ukraine to pay attention and study in detail Savchenko's activities in the Armed Forces of Ukraine." https://t.me/marybezuhla/2317

    Note back in 2014 she have led her unit into pro-Rus ambush. Now she have collapsed important part of frontline....