Kiev Is Burning

[urbanoid]

Generally a minor squabble, they backstabbed us in 1920 when we had a problem, we did the same and took the place back in 1938, when they had a problem.

Apparently ze Germans weren't all that happy about it, as an important railway went through there and they would have liked to control it (and we didn't want them to).

[mkenny]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Parts of Czechoslovakia, not annexation yes?

So Poland 'deserved' to be annexed, because?...

Because not everyone shares your myopic 'we good, they bad' simplistic black & white  mindset. Poland was far from being a bastion of democracy or blameless in the conflicts that came after 1919. 

They were all as bad as each other.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Just now, mkenny said:

Because not everyone shares your myopic 'we good, they bad' simplistic black & white  mindset. Poland was far from being a bastion of democracy or blameless in the conflicts that came after 1919. 

They were all as bad as each other.

Ah, myopic apparently is believing the Nazis annexing their way across Europe was 'a bad thing', whereas your generation believe they were all asking for it. Perhaps they were wearing too short a skirt, or out on their own whilst drunk?

So the USSR wasn't a bastion of Democracy either, were they asking for it too?

 

[Roman Alymov]

Article in Defence One about pro-Ukr brigades training process in Poland. Pace of war shortens EU-based training for Ukrainian troops - Defense One

Interestingly, they admit "Ukraine, though, has only weeks or at most months to train soldiers, and brigade staff training is just 21 days."   Also, theur estimation of losses is sort of game of words:

"Russia has lost as many as 600,000 soldiers, wounded and dead. That figure exceeds the Russian army’s estimated ground strength at the beginning of the war—360,000 troops— and is the most casualties Moscow’s armies have suffered since Soviet losses in World War II. 

But Ukraine’s losses have also been high, with an estimated 80,000 dead and 400,000 wounded, the Wall Street Journal reported. "

   So, ratio of losses according to this article is 600 000/480 000 Rus/Ukr - far from typical claims about pro-Russians losses times more then pro-Ukr ones (not to mention it is in direct contdadiction with Ukr official claim of more then 600K Russians DEAD).

[Roman Alymov]

56 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

So Poland 'deserved' to be annexed, because?...

Technically speaking, most of Poland was not annexed by Reich (unlike Austria) but was colonised ( with Generalgouvernement esteblished), quite in line with colonial practice of other European powers of that time. The only major difference was that locals were white, not colored (but who cares about color since they were Untermensch anyway).

[Roman Alymov]

Fiberoptic-controlled FPVsagainst pro-Ukr armor, note their ability to operate under trees/amid bushes and to chase enemy along electric power line despite of wires. But it seems like they are relatively slow (not clear if it is result of technical limitations or operators, free from EW effects, use opportunity to target strikes well and without rush)

https://t.me/infomil_live/11740?single

[glenn239]

3 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Generally a minor squabble, they backstabbed us in 1920 when we had a problem, we did the same and took the place back in 1938, when they had a problem.

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

[Yama]

25 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

Maybe that was not the brightest spot in history of Poland, but really it would be absurd to argue it would have mattered to Nazis at all had Poland stayed out of it. Hitler (and not just him, but many Germans) saw Polish state an anathema which should not be allowed to exist.

Also, in general sense, post-WW1 border drawing in Eastern Europe was done in a hurry and left a ton of open issues and quarrels, some of which still remain today.

[Roman Alymov]

6 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

   I think it is not correct to say that "in 1938 Poland sided with Hitler". I would rather put it another way: in this years, Germany led by "collective Hitler" and Poland led by "collective  Piłsudski"*  were practicing simmilar political lines and this lines were not so different from best practicies by other imperialist powers. In fact, Poland and, to less ectent, Germany were trying to imitate the habits of "old" colonial empires of Western Europe - they came too late to the table to get overseas colonies, and were too weak to fight for them, so were trying to establish own colonits just east of their places where locals were unable to provide organised resistance

(slogan  - "Power/strength of Poland is in colonies")

Still, overseas colonies were also wanted (slogan - "Ask for overseas colonies for Poland")

As far as i remember, Poland was trying to negotiate control over northern part of Madagaskar (with plans to then resettle Polish Jews to this colony).

* Yes i remember Piłsudski personally died in 1935

 

Edited November 8 by Roman Alymov

[Roman Alymov]

Barn-tanks assault https://t.me/creamy_caprice/7423

[Roman Alymov]

Improvided armored car (made from old good GAZ-66) vs. pro-Ukr armor (not clear what type), Ugledar region. Interestingly, GAZ-66 wins  - as fleing enemy vehicle was later abandoned https://t.me/creamy_caprice/7417

[Roman Alymov]

 

[seahawk]

Those are Russian soldiers fighting for Russia - there is no such thing as Ukrainians.

[Roman Alymov]

11 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Those are Russian soldiers fighting for Russia - there is no such thing as Ukrainians.

Patrick Lancaster is foreigner so it is strange to expect him to go deep into details, especially when it comes to writing headlines.

[Stuart Galbraith]

10 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Technically speaking, most of Poland was not annexed by Reich (unlike Austria) but was colonised ( with Generalgouvernement esteblished), quite in line with colonial practice of other European powers of that time. The only major difference was that locals were white, not colored (but who cares about color since they were Untermensch anyway).

You should tell that to a Pole, they will be thrilled.

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 hours ago, Yama said:

Maybe that was not the brightest spot in history of Poland, but really it would be absurd to argue it would have mattered to Nazis at all had Poland stayed out of it. Hitler (and not just him, but many Germans) saw Polish state an anathema which should not be allowed to exist.

Also, in general sense, post-WW1 border drawing in Eastern Europe was done in a hurry and left a ton of open issues and quarrels, some of which still remain today.

Ding, ding, ding! We have the correct answer!

And of course the same was true of the USSR. They didnt hate Poland because it had invaded Czechoslovakia (a justification btw, that would mean invading the Reich also). They hated Poland because they had halted the invasion of 1920, and Stalin wanted payback.

[urbanoid]

8 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Perhaps siding with Hitler in 1938 proved a bigger mistake for Poland than recovering table scraps from the Slovaks proved an advantage.

Czechs, it was from the Czech part. 

About us much consequences internationally as Czechoslovakia suffered in 1920 after taking that piece while we were fighting the Reds, which is none at all, or close. I don't think it had any influence on 1939 events, when the western allies did what they were supposed to do. Again, even the nuclear bomb transported from the future and dropped on Berlin couldn't have helped us at the time.

[Pavel Novak]

18 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Generally speaking, non-aggression pacts have less credibility in international relations than do alliances.

No doubt you are more familiar with the history than I am, but I see in reading this morning, I see that Moscow first threatened Warsaw with the denouncement of the non-aggression pact in 1938.  This was during the Munich Crisis when the USSR was partially mobilizing to deter Germany, and Poland then sided with Hitler, both to block cooperation in the defense of the Czechs by the Soviets, as well as to annex parts of Slovakia by force.  

 Poland, now having done this and helping to cause a geopolitical vacuum in Central Europe that had blown Soviet security wide open, you suggest that in the case of the pending Nazi-Polish war in 1939 that the Soviets should stick to the letter of the treaty and allow Hitler to occupy all of Poland?   The Poles vetoed Soviet troops on their soil in 1939.  The Soviets could never tolerate Germany having a border right up on the outskirts of Minsk.

Soviets could cancel it in 1938 but they did not. No judging here.

But in 1939 it was still valid yet Soviets had no issue preparing invasion of Poland together with Nazi Germany. One would expect that whole point of non-aggression pact is not to do exactly this.

[Pavel Novak]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Czechs, it was from the Czech part. 

About us much consequences internationally as Czechoslovakia suffered in 1920 after taking that piece while we were fighting the Reds, which is none at all, or close. I don't think it had any influence on 1939 events, when the western allies did what they were supposed to do. Again, even the nuclear bomb transported from the future and dropped on Berlin couldn't have helped us at the time.

Slovak parts too in 1938. Even that small battle (two dead on both sides) was about slovak territory. Greatly helped Tiso to legitimize slovak participation in 1939 invasion.

[urbanoid]

6 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

Slovak parts too in 1938. Even that small battle (two dead on both sides) was about slovak territory. Greatly helped Tiso to legitimize slovak participation in 1939 invasion.

Right, my mistake.

[seahawk]

10 hours ago, Yama said:

Maybe that was not the brightest spot in history of Poland, but really it would be absurd to argue it would have mattered to Nazis at all had Poland stayed out of it. Hitler (and not just him, but many Germans) saw Polish state an anathema which should not be allowed to exist.

Also, in general sense, post-WW1 border drawing in Eastern Europe was done in a hurry and left a ton of open issues and quarrels, some of which still remain today.

Not Poland as such, but in the form of the territory of the time. Always remember that from a German perspective, they had been attacked by Russia at the start of WW1, then defeated Russia and then had to hand over a lot of territory to Poland with the Versailles treaty. A country which did not even exist at the start of WW1. It was obvious that the Soviet Union and Germany would be very eager to reverse this at the first opportunity.

[Yama]

It goes way beyond WW1, famously Bismarck said that eradication of Poles was necessity for Germans to survive.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Kinda Ironic, in that it was due to those selfsame poles there is now a United Germany, purely down to their actions.

[Roman Alymov]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ding, ding, ding! We have the correct answer!

And of course the same was true of the USSR. They didnt hate Poland because it had invaded Czechoslovakia (a justification btw, that would mean invading the Reich also). They hated Poland because they had halted the invasion of 1920, and Stalin wanted payback.

Let me remind it was Poles who have invaded (and even took Kiev on May 7, 1920). So it was Red Army who have "halted the invasion".  Probably you know this iconic picture of Lenin - but few people remember it is Lenin speaking on May 5, 1920 urging workers of Moscow to join Red Army to stop Poles as frontline is collapsing

[Stuart Galbraith]

I dont need to remind you that Ukraine was independent at this point, and therefore absolutely none of the Soviets business, anymore than was Georgia or the Baltic states, let alone a need for 'halting the invasion', since it was no part of your country that was being invaded.

No, I probably DO need to remind you of it.