Kiev Is Burning

[urbanoid]

3 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I idly wondered if Russia fell, whether Poland would put in a claim for Kaliningrad. But then I figured, why would they want all those Russian messing up what is basically a monoethnic nation. One of the few benefits you got from WW2.

Nope, let the Czechs deal with it, we can help them build a Beer Stream 1 and Beer Stream 2 going from Czechia proper to the Czech Kralovec. The transit fees will be obviously paid in beer. And they will finally have a navy too. 

Edited September 29, 2024 by urbanoid

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 minute ago, urbanoid said:

Nope, let the Czechs deal with it, we can help them build a Beer Stream 1 and Beer Stream 2 going from Czechia proper to the Czech Kralovec. The transit fees will be obviously paid in beer. And they will finally have a navy too. 

 

[mkenny]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

 

Kenny apparently met some low class brainrots, definitely not representative of the general population. 

'Kenny' meet all classes of the Polish influx into the UK. The first ones to arrive (at my workplace) where nearly all highly educated people who were learning English. They took jobs way below their skill-levels to perfect their English and them moved on. The later arrivals were what we would class as 'D's and we had a particular problem with both heavy drinking and the  routine carrying of knives in the workplace. I met and spoke to (on a daily basis) a wide range of Poles.   It was hard to tell which nation they hated most - Germany or Russia and 'chip-on-the-shoulder' does not even come close to describe their sense of victimhood. 

My workplace was by far the largest local employer and was so enamoured of the Poles it set up a Polish Office where they arranged everything to get them into the UK. A very large number of Poles passed through the firm so I did get to meet quite a lot of them. 

Edited September 29, 2024 by mkenny

[Yama]

22 hours ago, urbanoid said:

I meant in the interwar period. 

Postwar quite a lot of communists have become disillusioned with USSR, largely becoming 'social democrats' and the like, even if the old party names remained.

It was not completely true even then. Interwar communists were a diverse movement with many different sects and ideologies, including some which were heavily anti-Bolshevist. One major goal of Stalin was to marginalize or eliminate all those Communist parties which were not his proxies, and to some degree it was successful.

Though at least in Finland this 'purification' - together with the news and rumours of Great Purge which came across the border, made many Finnish communists realize that Soviet takeover was not in their best interests, after all.

I doubt Stalin had plans for world conquest. In fact this was a frequent criticism toward him by more ideological Communists, that he was too isolationistic and didn't support global Marxist revolution. "Socialism in one country" and all that.

Edited September 29, 2024 by Yama

[Roman Alymov]

   Iskander vs. ammunition train in Nikolaev region. Note locomotive crew have managed to pull burning train for some distance before leaving it to detonate in the fields https://t.me/infomil_live/10606

[ink]

14 hours ago, Yama said:

I doubt Stalin had plans for world conquest. In fact this was a frequent criticism toward him by more ideological Communists, that he was too isolationistic and didn't support global Marxist revolution. "Socialism in one country" and all that.

Indeed, though, of course, by the 1930s he was increasingly willing to mess with the capitalist countries, where possible (see Spain). A far cry from global revolution, but not quite total isolationism either.

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, ink said:

Indeed, though, of course, by the 1930s he was increasingly willing to mess with the capitalist countries, where possible (see Spain). A far cry from global revolution, but not quite total isolationism either.

Or maybe he was just smart enough to not have the 'in your face' attitude. Effectiveness aside, he did create the largest military on earth, at the great human, social and material cost to what was essentially a poor country.

Global revolution was to come... after both sides have exhausted each other, while the communist jackal was waiting to stab them in the back in the right moment. Didn't work, 22 June 1941 put an end to this plan.

[seahawk]

World conquest no, but the idea was that after the non-communist world has exhausted itself in conflicts, which would be fuelled by the Soviet Union if convenient, it would only need a little push till the oppressed masses would rise up and a global revolution would happen.

[ink]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Or maybe he was just smart enough to not have the 'in your face' attitude. Effectiveness aside, he did create the largest military on earth, at the great human, social and material cost to what was essentially a poor country.

Global revolution was to come... after both sides have exhausted each other, while the communist jackal was waiting to stab them in the back in the right moment. Didn't work, 22 June 1941 put an end to this plan.

Yeah, I basically agree with everything you said here. The militarisation and industrialisation were astounding (going from a proto-industrial power in 1917, to nuclear power that launched a man into orbit in just 4 decades - with a world war in between - is basically incomprehensible). But the human cost is equally unimaginable.

And, yes, the Russian communists would have loved to instigate a world revolution - so "socialism in one nation" was just a pragmatic/sneaky ploy.

[sunday]

6 minutes ago, ink said:

proto-industrial power in 1917

A proto-industrial power able to build dreadnoughts, so not so backwards.

Edited September 30, 2024 by sunday

[Roman Alymov]

1 minute ago, ink said:

And, yes, the Russian communists would have loved to instigate a world revolution - so "socialism in one nation" was just a pragmatic/sneaky ploy.

  "Russian communists" of early XX century were not exactly "Russian" - rather, just regional fraction of global Socialist movement (not the leasers of this movement, by the way, and nobody of them expected revolution in Russia to take upper hand in their lifetime, as it was against Marxist theory of stages of development - Russia was too underdeveloped for Socialism). All this "Socialism in one country" was late invention to provide theoretical base for status quo, and to oppose radicals like Trotsky who were demanding global revolution (or, at least, revolution in leading industial countries)

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

Global revolution was to come... after both sides have exhausted each other, while the communist jackal was waiting to stab them in the back in the right moment. 

   Not exactly so: the theory was that hardships of world war and wearout of inperialist powers would create situation when capitalists can no longer keep increasingly active working class under control. This theory was not exactly baseless (as the events of the last stages of WWI have demonstrated). There was no need to stab somebody, the roots of the problem were quite local. The task of Soviet leadership was 1) To avoid attack on USSR by coalition of capitalist powers and 2)To stay out of World War to the time above mentioned events would happen. Memoirs are full of stories of Soveits asking first German prisoners about how they think how soon will revolution happen in Germany.

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, sunday said:

A proto-industrial power able to build dreadnoughts, so...

Certainly not as industrialized as Western Europe, faaar more agrarian but... having rather unprecedented economic growth, sort of like China in the 1990s and 2000s.

[Roman Alymov]

Fiberoptic-controlled FPV vs. Leopard-2 on move, Kursk region  https://t.me/anna_news/71277

[ink]

26 minutes ago, sunday said:

A proto-industrial power able to build dreadnoughts, so not so backwards.

Yeah, but pretty crappy ones 😎

19 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Certainly not as industrialized as Western Europe, faaar more agrarian but... having rather unprecedented economic growth, sort of like China in the 1990s and 2000s.

Yeah, sure, not denying that. But, just like China in the early 2000s, the combination of breathtaking backwardness and impressive progress was remarkable (to say the least).

[sunday]

Or modern day India - nuclear weapons, a space program, and unbelievable levels of sanitation.

[Roman Alymov]

Effects of 152mm fragments on HMMWV column, note presence of Poles among pro-Ukrainians https://t.me/milinfolive/131697

[ink]

48 minutes ago, sunday said:

Or modern day India - nuclear weapons, a space program, and unbelievable levels of sanitation.

Good comparison. Especially as India looks (to me anyways) like it's one structural shock away from collapse/revolution/something worse.

[bojan]

39 minutes ago, ink said:

Good comparison.

Nothing good about it.

Gap between average Russian peasant and west-European peasant in 1900 was way, way smaller than it is between average citizen of western Europe or even Russia and India in 2024.

You have at least know someone who has visited India off the beaten path to realize how huge gap in living standard is in 2024.

[Roman Alymov]

2 minutes ago, bojan said:

Nothing good about it.

Gap between average Russian peasant and west-European peasant in 1900 was way, way smaller than it is between average citizen of western Europe or even Russia and India in 2024.

It strongly depends on how you construct "average" for peasants, since even within Russia the difference was massive for many reasons. Comparing relatively rich peasant from Don or Siberia to extremely poor landless peasant (actually, "rural proletariat") of Baltics is misleading.

[ink]

1 hour ago, bojan said:

Nothing good about it.

Gap between average Russian peasant and west-European peasant in 1900 was way, way smaller than it is between average citizen of western Europe or even Russia and India in 2024.

You have at least know someone who has visited India off the beaten path to realize how huge gap in living standard is in 2024.

I'm not sure about that (as in, I'm genuinely not sure - you may be right) but poverty levels in Russia before the war were definitely more extreme than in western Europe - it's just a question of degree.

On India, though, I couldn't agree more.

[glenn239]

11 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

   Iskander vs. ammunition train in Nikolaev region. Note locomotive crew have managed to pull burning train for some distance before leaving it to detonate in the fields https://t.me/infomil_live/10606

"Media too big".  Did the Iskander hit a moving train, or was it struck when stationary, then the engineers moved it to an open field?

[Roman Alymov]

4 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

"Media too big".  

I hope somebody would care to put it to YouTube later.

5 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

  Did the Iskander hit a moving train, or was it struck when stationary, then the engineers moved it to an open field?

The train was hit when static (Rus source say it was offloading, but it is not clear from the video).

[Roman Alymov]

Excelent example of speechwriter jumping through verbal loops 

"Address on Day of Reunification of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Lugansk People’s Republic and the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions with Russia.
President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Citizens of Russia, friends,

Today, on September 30, we mark the Day of Reunification of the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics, and the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions with Russia.

I wholeheartedly congratulate all citizens of our country on this truly momentous event. We have come to this moment through years of challenges and difficult trials. We knew the unbearable conditions under which Donbass lived for eight long years, enduring constant shelling and blockades, and the oppression faced by the people of Novorossiya. They stood up against the armed coup in Kiev and resisted the neo-Nazi dictatorship that sought to sever them forever from their historic Motherland, from Russia.

We did not abandon our brothers and sisters and sought to achieve a peaceful resolution to this grave conflict. You know how those talks ended: with lies, deceit and betrayal by the Western elites, who in that time turned Ukraine into their colony, into a military outpost aimed at Russia.

They systematically instilled hatred and radical nationalism, fuelled hostility towards everything Russian, supplied weapons, sent mercenaries and advisers, and trained the Ukrainian army for a new war, so that again, as in the spring and summer of 2014, to launch a punitive operation in the southeast.

Their targets included not only Donbass, but also Crimea and other Russian regions. The subsequent developments fully confirmed the need for and validity of the special military operation and its genuinely liberating nature.

I want to address the residents of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Lugansk People’s Republic, the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions. Thank you for your steadfastness, determination and strength, for passing down from generation to generation our spiritual values, historical memory, traditions and culture, and above all, our great love for the Motherland, which remains our greatest source of strength in life.

Today, together, we are defending a safe and prosperous future for our children and grandchildren, our shared destiny, the memory of the achievements and victories of our great ancestors, and our loyalty to their traditions and behests.

These sentiments give strength to the participants in the special military operation. Fighting now in Donbass and Novorossiya, defending the borders of Kursk, Belgorod and Bryansk regions, they are defending our vast, beautiful and beloved Russia. We are proud of our heroes and are doing everything we can to support them.

We are actively restoring enterprises and building residential houses, hospitals, schools and kindergartens in the liberated territories. All Russian regions are involved in this effort. Both large and small businesses are making their contribution. Volunteers, non-governmental and religious organisations, and parliamentary parties are playing a huge role too.

I want to thank all citizens of our country for their unity and patriotic spirit. The truth is on our side. All the goals we have set for ourselves will be achieved.

Happy holiday, friends! Happy Reunification Day!" (Address on Day of Reunification of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Lugansk People’s Republic and the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions with Russia • President of Russia (kremlin.ru) )

    Probably, they hope Russian public got Western-style short memory.....

Reaction from pro-Russians 

"Here it is, Putin congratulated us on the next anniversary of the reunification of the Russian Federation with other regions of Russia, which for more than 100 years have been subject to Ukrainization, and therefore Banderization. 

Putin admitted that the entire propaganda machine of the Russian Federation lied in 2014, telling us that the inhabitants of Novorossiya did not rise as much as in Crimea, not in a single impulse. He said that the residents of Novorossiya were against the coup in Kiev and, moreover, rebuffed the Bandera bastards. 

After these words of the president, it is necessary to dismiss most of the propagandists working in the federal media, including Solovyov. They lied to us in 2014. They lied from morning to night saying that "our boys should not die for lazy miners." The President made it clear that the miners were not lazy and fought back against the fascists. 

But no one will fire Solovyov for lying and for information work for the enemy in 2014. And this means that either the president is lying, the miners were lazy, or the president is protecting disinformers and liars. Maybe there are some other options?" (https://t.me/donbass_skripnik/16724)

    

[Stefan Kotsch]

25 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Putin: Today, on September 30, we mark the Day of Reunification of the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics, and the Zaporozhye and Kherson regions with Russia.

Putin in 2003 signing the treaty on the borders between Ukraine and Russia.

 

Edited September 30, 2024 by Stefan Kotsch

[Roman Alymov]

8 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Putin in 2003 signing the treaty on the borders between Ukraine and Russia.

 

Isn't it not logical for person appointed by Yeltsin?