Kiev Is Burning

[Roman Alymov]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

This is complete nonsense. in Dictatorships, lying is necessary to retain ones place at the table. Look at Saddam Hussein. Two of his Generals went to see him during the Iran/Iraq war. They told him their dispositions would lead to a rout. He thanked them, remade the dispositions, then had them shot for defying him.

  I am sorry but what you say got nothing to do with reality. First of all, Saddam's Iraq got very little to do with real organised dictatorship - it was rater messy and chaotic Middle East post-revolutionary state with clan warwafe etc. Do you understand that during WWII it was 4 (FOUR) independent lines of communicating frontline situation to higher ups:

1) Regular military command reports;

2) Political officers regular reports + urgent reports;

3) NKVD representatives reports;

4) Communist Party and Komsomol organisations reports;

Plus, from "Front" level, there was a special institute of "Stavka representatives" - civilian politicians attached to headquarter with direct responcibility of reporting real situation (and making sure military command are not playing any silly games).

     Good luck trying to regularly communicagte disinformation within such system. Of course it was not free of troubles (see Lev Mekhlis story on Crimea front and results of it), but it was quite good in keeping top political leadership informed about real situation.

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Thats why Stalin tried to kill Zhukov postwar on horseback in the postwar parade.

When?

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Russia is no liberal system. It took the worst of the old USSR, slapped a Democratic vineer on it, and even the West was stupid enough to buy it. Nobody believes it now.

Oh yes.....

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

As for lying, you should take a look at how they are going through Shoigu's defence ministry and busily imprisoning anyone they think to blame for the failure of the special 3 day operation to liberate Kyiv. 

I'm sorry but it is incompetent nonsence, as untill now most of Shoigu's team members arersted were not related to military affairs. For example, yesterday the guy responsible for military shops was arrested.....

[Roman Alymov]

ATGM (?) vs. Bradley https://t.me/anna_news/69160

[mkenny]

9 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Im finding it difficult to believe the idea that the Ukrainians are suddenly on the ropes .............

Yes we understand. You really, really, really , believed all your Cold War dreams were coming true. Turns out you (yet again) spaffed too soon! 

[mandeb48]

29 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Its very clear the Ukrainians are taking casualties. But everyone who reads military history knows that forces on the defensive, particularly if they are in good defensive positions, and if they withdraw in good order, generally take fewer casualties than those on the offensive. Its a military truth, based on the maxim you need to out number your enemy something like 3 times, just to displace them.

Yes, a military truth engraved in stone. And tell me, what was the ratio of casualties in Okinawa between defenders and attackers, for example?

[glenn239]

10 minutes ago, mandeb48 said:

Yes, a military truth engraved in stone. And tell me, what was the ratio of casualties in Okinawa between defenders and attackers, for example?

The casualty ratio on Okinawa according to Wiki was 77,823 IJA soldiers killed vs 14,010 Americans killed, including those at sea, for a KIA ratio of 5.5 defenders per 1 attacker.  

[Stuart Galbraith]

37 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

  I am sorry but what you say got nothing to do with reality. First of all, Saddam's Iraq got very little to do with real organised dictatorship - it was rater messy and chaotic Middle East post-revolutionary state with clan warwafe etc. Do you understand that during WWII it was 4 (FOUR) independent lines of communicating frontline situation to higher ups:

1) Regular military command reports;

2) Political officers regular reports + urgent reports;

3) NKVD representatives reports;

4) Communist Party and Komsomol organisations reports;

Plus, from "Front" level, there was a special institute of "Stavka representatives" - civilian politicians attached to headquarter with direct responcibility of reporting real situation (and making sure military command are not playing any silly games).

     Good luck trying to regularly communicagte disinformation within such system. Of course it was not free of troubles (see Lev Mekhlis story on Crimea front and results of it), but it was quite good in keeping top political leadership informed about real situation.

When?

Oh yes.....

I'm sorry but it is incompetent nonsence, as untill now most of Shoigu's team members arersted were not related to military affairs. For example, yesterday the guy responsible for military shops was arrested.....

June 1945 at the victory celebration. The story I heard is that the horse, Idol, had a reputation for being flighty. It was supposedly intended for Stalin to ride him, but he decided to give him to Zhukov to ride. After the parade, Stalin reputed had a conversation with Zhukov, saying that the horse was highly spirited, and he expected it to throw him and kill him. Zhukov was never entirely sure whether he was joking or not. Of course, Zhukov had trained as a Cavalryman in the Tsars Army, so he was well up to mastering it.

Perhaps its apocrypal, perhaps not. The fact remains, Stalin ruined Zhukovs career, and essentially kept in him deep freeze for the rest of Stalins life, probably the only time he ever did that with a subordinate. Presumably because he was afraid of his popularity, but also because he suspected he might have need of him again.

[Stuart Galbraith]

23 minutes ago, mandeb48 said:

Yes, a military truth engraved in stone. And tell me, what was the ratio of casualties in Okinawa between defenders and attackers, for example?

Yeah, comparatively few places for people stuck on an island surrounded by water to withdraw to. Not even the Japanese could walk on water....

Look at the Moscow offensive. It was something like 134000 casualties on the German side, 174000 on the Soviet side. that was despite the Soviets having the drop on the Germans, and the Germans at the end of their supply line, their tanks all frozen up, and their troops half frozen to death. Technological advances since then have made the defensve more amore profitable. if they had not, the Soviets wouldnt have developed so many artillery systems to try and blast through defensive positions.

The only time when it doesnt work, is when you can use operational manoeuvre to outflank and surround defensive positions. The Soviets becamse incredibly sophisticated at developing and using such doctrine. The problem for the Russians is, though they yearn to be, they are not Soviets, and proceed from frontal assault to frontal assault. The idea they are not racking up cricket score casualties doing this makes a mockery of everything Tukachevsky, Patton and Zhukov tried to do by developing operational manoeuvre. They lack the mass, they lack the logistics, they lack the firepower. the only good news for the Russians is, so do the Ukrainians.

If you want a worthy comparison, look at the Moscow offensive in 1941, and contrast it with the Vistula Oder operation. Its a difference of night and day.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

The casualty ratio on Okinawa according to Wiki was 77,823 IJA soldiers killed vs 14,010 Americans killed, including those at sea, for a KIA ratio of 5.5 defenders per 1 attacker.  

Why not use a less silly comparison, hmm?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme

c. 420,000[1] (95,675 killed or missing) c. 200,000[2] (50,729 killed or missing)

c. 440,000[3] 41,605 men captured by French[4] 31,396 men captured by British

[Stuart Galbraith]

Here is another. Bear in mind, there number of captured is high, because they lost their transport and had nowhere to run to against a large mechanised force. Of course if they had, they would have escaped, and all anyone would remember is the British had taken 4 and a half thousand more casualties than the Germans had, and lost nearly all their tanks doing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_El_Alamein

2,000–9,000 killed or missing, 4,800–15,000 wounded, 35,000–49,000 captured[14] c. 500 tanks destroyed 254 artillery guns destroyed 84 aircraft destroyed

13,560 killed, wounded, captured, and missing[14][i] 332–500 tanks destroyed 111 guns destroyed 97 aircraft destroyed

[Stuart Galbraith]

Or, if you want to get all classical, the battle of Agincourt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

English (and Welsh) did everything right. They had the archers on the flanks, dug everyone in behind a wall made of staves. Took a good defensive positions, with the French attacking though thick mud. And the results reflected it.

Up to 600 killed (112 identified)[8][9]

• 6,000 killed (most of whom were of the French nobility)[10][11] • 700–2,200 captured[12]

[Stuart Galbraith]

The tactical lesson is, if a force can remain in being, can remain in a defensive position, does not have to displace, if its not surrounded, it can run up cricket scores against its opponent trying to displace it, particularly if the assaulting force is tactically inept.

And even if it is overrun, sometimes the effect is still a cricket score, particularly against an inept enemy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Imjin_River

Unknown 141 killed 1,169 wounded, missing or captured[9] 12 killed 5 killed

15,000+ (estimated)[10]

[seahawk]

Yet, the anti-Russian forces are not down to archers yet. But Okinawa is a valid comparison as the firepower distribution is at least as one sided.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Sigh. Getting bored now.

(Gasp, Human wave!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rorke's_Drift

17 killed[6] 15 wounded

351 confirmed killed[7] about 500 wounded[8]

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Ok Stuart, stand up ,and walk away from the keyboard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mirbat

United Kingdom  Oman	PFLOAG
Commanders and leaders
Mike Kealy	Shaheed Salim Musalim †
Strength
10 British soldiers (9 SAS, 1 Int Corps) 25 men from Omani Gendarmerie[1] 30 Balochi Askari[1] 60 soldiers of a local firqat[2] 3 BAC Strikemaster light attack jets[2] 21 SAS reinforcements[2] 3 helicopters[2]	200–300 Adoo guerrillas
Casualties and losses
2 SAS soldiers killed 2 Gendarmes killed[2] 1 jet damaged	80 killed 12 captured[2]

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Yet, the anti-Russian forces are not down to archers yet. But Okinawa is a valid comparison as the firepower distribution is at least as one sided.

Yes, lets DO compare a force, completely surrounded by water and unable to withdraw, fanatical and unwilling to surrender, fighting against the US marine corp, battleships, and the USN Naval Air Arm!  Truly the Glorious Russian Army is Ruski Mir strong, bringing along land battleships and the mighty Kuznetsov battlegroup!

Hah.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Stephen Fry tells a joke.

 

[Roman Alymov]

48 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

June 1945 at the victory celebration. The story I heard is that the horse, Idol, had a reputation for being flighty. It was supposedly intended for Stalin to ride him, but he decided to give him to Zhukov to ride. After the parade, Stalin reputed had a conversation with Zhukov, saying that the horse was highly spirited, and he expected it to throw him and kill him. Zhukov was never entirely sure whether he was joking or not. Of course, Zhukov had trained as a Cavalryman in the Tsars Army, so he was well up to mastering it.

Perhaps its apocrypal, perhaps not. 

So you are first bringing up the story as fast, then you claim it "perhaps its apocryphal, perhaps not" without even lifting your fingers to keyboard to check? Well, let me help you - below is translation from Wiki page dedicated to this horse

"Life history
The parade on November 7, 1941
Few people know that the Idol ("Kumir" in Russian - RA) also participated in the Parade on November 7, 1941.

The cavalryman, Ivan Trofimovich Maximets, remembers[1]:
In the autumn of the forty-first, the fascists were on the outskirts of Moscow. Our regiment, in which I was the commander of the first squadron, covered the approaches to the Soviet capital. We have received a replenishment of the cavalry. I didn't complain about my Eagle — it was a good horse, a real fighting friend. Therefore, I was surprised when the regimental commander called me and handed me a snow-white handsome Idol. The commander then said: "Since you are a komesk-one[2], you must be different from the others, that's why I'm giving you a beautiful horse." It was a sin to refuse such a handsome man. I gave the eagle to my orderly, and we immediately became friends with the Idol. A thoroughbred animal of Arab-Kabardian blood has become a real friend to me. I could even talk to him. Sometimes, you go up to him, and he puts his head on his shoulder and seems to be trying to say something in his ear. And if he needed to clean his hooves, he would lift his leg himself — in short, he was the smartest animal.

In early November 1941, we were removed from our position in the strictest secrecy and sent to Moscow to the central airfield near Leningradsky Prospekt. Other military units were also assembled there. We were told that Muscovites want to look at the troops that are preparing to be sent to the front, and therefore a small review will be held in the area of the Crimean Bridge. And it was only on the evening before the seventh of November that we learned that we would participate in the parade on Red Square. The morning turned out to be really wintry: the sky was covered with dark clouds, it was snowing heavily. A few minutes before the start of the parade, Levitan's voice sounded: "Attention, attention! All radio stations of the Soviet Union are talking: Moscow Central Radio begins broadcasting from Red Square with a parade of Red Army units dedicated to the 24th anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution." And at exactly eight in the morning, the parade began, which was hosted by Deputy People's Commissar of Defense Marshal of the Soviet Union Semyon Budyonny.

— Ivan Trofimovich Maximets
Preparation for the Victory Parade
I. V. Stalin instructed to take the Victory Parade on a white horse [3], which symbolizes Victory and Glory[4].

Stalin twice severely reprimanded Marshal S. M. Budyonny for the fact that different marshals take the parade on Red Square on the same horse. According to Semyon Mikhailovich, after the harsh reproaches were expressed, Stalin asked him: "Why don't you have enough horse farms? Or can't you choose other horses for the parade?"[5][6]

Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny felt this rebuke of Stalin very painfully. The day after the November holidays, he urgently summoned Igor Fedorovich Bobylev, the veterinarian of the Arena of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR, to his office at the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR, and excitedly told about what had happened. After a short pause, he said: "I will immediately go to the stud farms to choose horses myself."[7]

Selection
One day a colonel came to our regiment and wrote down data on all the prominent horses in a notebook. As it turned out, he had been in other cavalry units. And two weeks later, the regimental commander ordered that my horse Idol be urgently handed over to a representative of the General Staff.

— Ivan Trofimovich Maximets
In the Arena of the People's Commissariat of Defense of the USSR there were horses specially prepared for solemn events like the Parade, however, due to the heroic stature of Georgy Konstantinovich, these horses did not suit him. Zhukov needed a more "capital" horse. Five days were set aside to find a suitable horse. They searched all over the country: in cavalry units, at the Moscow Hippodrome, at the Moscow Stud Farm, at the DOSAAF Cavalry Club, the Budyonny Higher Cavalry Officer School, in equestrian sports schools and other organizations. Finally, we came across an Idol from the cavalry regiment of the division named after F. The Dzerzhinsky troops of the NKVD (often mistakenly indicated by the MGB (created in March 1946) or the KGB (created in March 1954), although then, of course, this organization did not yet bear this name). Budyonny, Antonov and others examined the horse — everyone was satisfied. When Zhukov sat on the Idol, it became clear that he was a master of horse riding[4].

Both marshals, Zhukov and Rokossovsky, trained for about a month — Zhukov entered the arena, silently engaged in dressage and quickly left for work. Rokossovsky could admire the horse for a long time, which the soldiers walked away after work.

The Supreme Commander-in-Chief Stalin himself came to the review.
I didn't believe it at first. And then he looked to the side and was stunned: the supreme commander! Stalin stood next to the white stallion Idol. He examined the horse, stroked it, but did not sit down. "Let Zhukov sit down," he said. Soon the marshal arrived. He jumped into the saddle with extraordinary ease, took a gallop, rode back and forth, then patted the Idol on the neck and asked who was training. "I am," I say. - "Well done! You and I have the same horse feeling!" the marshal exclaimed.

When G. K. Zhukov appeared in the Arena and sat on the Idol, we immediately realized that everything was in order and he had no experience in the art of riding. He felt like a fish in water in the saddle and didn't need any prompting. Later I found out that he can tell anyone himself.

On the very first day, G. K. Zhukov, getting off the Idol, saw a barely noticeable whiteness on the tops of his boots and immediately made a stern remark to me, more, however, with a glance and a finger than with words. Naturally, I stretched out at the seams and apologized. GK Zhukov, without saying goodbye, left the Arena. In order to make the reason for this incident clear, I will tell you the following.

Before arriving at the Arena, the Idol horse was in the KGB cavalry regiment, in which the requirements for the care and maintenance of horses were not as strict as in our Arena. Therefore, in order for the Idol to meet our requirements, we washed it under a warm shower. And... they overdid it! — the epidermis of the skin began to peel off from the warm water. After the reproach of G. K. Zhukov, the washing of the Idol ended. We started cleaning it using birch charcoal. G. K. Zhukov had no more grounds for comments.

— Nikolai Fedorovich Ovchinnikov[4]
The closer the Parade got, the more intense the life of the staff and the Idol became. The horse was led around the Arena for a long time, taught to make stops, gallop through the formation, led the horse to the tanks, accustomed to various noises, for which a whole orchestra was called into the Arena. For a month, the Idol was fed at the highest level — "delicacies". And two days before the Parade, they were put on a starvation diet. Two officers of the NKVD troops guarded the horse around the clock[8].

All this month we spent the night in the Arena. And on June 24, at five in the morning, the last preparations began — makeup for the Idol. I'm sure no hairdresser has ever put such a gloss on women as we have on parade horses. But the beauty turned out to be indescribable!

— Ilya Semenovich Kozak
Victory Day Parade
It was raining on the day of the Victory Parade, and the horses were carefully covered with blankets.

At exactly 10 a.m., at the first stroke of the Kremlin chimes, Marshal of the Soviet Union G. K. Zhukov rode out of the gates of the Spasskaya Tower on a silver-white Idol. He was accompanied, also on a white horse named Celebes, by adjutant Colonel Pyotr Pavlovich Zelensky[9]. They headed towards the Mausoleum. Rokossovsky was riding towards the Pole from the walls of the Historical Museum with a saber drawn. He was accompanied by adjutant — Lieutenant Colonel Klykov on a horse named Eaglet.

The drizzling rain did not prevent the commanders from galloping beautifully through the Red Square, meeting with representatives of all fronts. After driving around and greeting the troops stationed on Revolution and Manezhnaya Squares, Zhukov and Rokossovsky, to the sounds of "Hail!" Glinka rushed almost like a quarry along the Historical Passage, back to Red Square, which greeted them with a loud soldier's "Hurrah!" and stormy applause. Rokossovsky stopped the Poles near the Historical Museum. And Zhukov, the heated Idol, was near the Mausoleum, after which he quickly dismounted and, patting the horse on the neck, headed to the podium of the Mausoleum.

I knew my stallions so well that I was sure that even a loud "Hurrah!" and powerful volleys would not scare them. Oh, there were horses then…

— Nikolai Fedorovich Ovchinnikov
Meeting with the former owner
— Where did you become a participant in the parade again — this time of Victory?

— Since mid-June 1945, training of troops for the Victory Parade began at the Central Airfield, and on June 24, consolidated regiments of the fronts, the People's Commissariat of Defense, the Navy, the military academy and the school passed through the main square of the Soviet Union. The parade was hosted by Marshal Zhukov of the Soviet Union. I was in the first rank, the third from the flank in our parade squad. I see Zhukov rode out of the Spassky Gate on a white horse and began to ride around the troops. Just the sight of the handsome white steed made my heart beat faster than usual. And when Zhukov on horseback stopped in front of our team, I almost screamed: "This is my Idol horse!"

— And how did you recognize him, by some marks?

— I'm a cavalryman, I don't need any marks. After all, a horse is like a man, and in war it is also a comrade in arms. I would have recognized my Idol many years later. So I stand and look at him, I think to call out, because Zhukov will punish, even to the point that he will demote — he was strict. And you know, the Idol recognized me too, came closer, and at that moment Zhukov turned away. I stroked the horse's muzzle with a quick movement of my hand. In response, he licked my fingers. That's how we met. I never saw the Idol again. Later I found out how my horse ended up at Zhukov's and how they found a horse for Marshal Rokossovsky, commander of the parade.

— Ivan Trofimovich Maximets
After the Parade
After the parade, he was sent back to the cavalry regiment of the NKVD troops. They remembered about him three years later. Budyonny ordered to find a horse for the May parade of the 48th year. And once again the Idol appeared before Stalin. Alas, these "looks" turned out to be his last. Apparently, the handsome horse reminded the generalissimo of the finest hour of Marshal Zhukov, then no longer beloved by him.

After those shows, Budyonny came to our Arena in a gloomy mood. "You know," he said, "Comrade Stalin forbade parades on a white horse, let's find another horse." The idol was sent back to the regiment. No one else has heard of him.

— Ilya Semenovich Kozak
Offspring
A descendant of the Idol at the Parade in Moscow on May 9, 2010, as reported during the parade, was carrying the commander of the parade squad of the Armed Forces of Turkmenistan. However, historians and participants of the legendary Victory Parade saw a significant difference in the breeds" (source https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кумир_(конь) )

   So, as you see, the whole story is complete fake - as the horse was carefully selected from well-trained cavalry horses (who are not supposed to "had a reputation for being flighty"), it was newer intended for Stalin (no idea if actually he have EVER ride a horse following his childhood life-changing hand trauma - he was hit by carriage and one of his hands was badly damaged), and Zhilov have spent a lot of time training for parade on this horse.

    More over, Zhulov was not just "had trained as a Cavalryman in the Tsars Army" - actually, he have made all the way from Cavalry private to Cavalry division commander, including taking part on WWI and Russian Civil War and repeated horseback hand-to-hand clashes, and for some time was deputy Inspector of Cavalry of Red Army. So it would not be overstretch to say he was one of the best cavalrymen of USSR. No idea where you get this....

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

The fact remains, Stalin ruined Zhukovs career, and essentially kept in him deep freeze for the rest of Stalins life, probably the only time he ever did that with a subordinate. Presumably because he was afraid of his popularity, but also because he suspected he might have need of him again.

That is not so unexpected - Stalin was both man of classic education and practicing revolutionary, making him well aware of all the troubles popular military leader could create for civilian Government, especially revolutionary one (story of Napoleon was much more recent in this days then now). But it was not even close to " the only time he ever did that with a subordinate" - see the story of Mekhlis as perfect example of a man who, despite of outstanding personal bravery and fanatism, was de-facto kept on freeze after failure of Crimea front ( urbal legend is Stalin only said him "Curse you!" when Mekhlis turned up in front os him after ruining entire front)

[urbanoid]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

June 1945 at the victory celebration. The story I heard is that the horse, Idol, had a reputation for being flighty. It was supposedly intended for Stalin to ride him, but he decided to give him to Zhukov to ride. After the parade, Stalin reputed had a conversation with Zhukov, saying that the horse was highly spirited, and he expected it to throw him and kill him. Zhukov was never entirely sure whether he was joking or not. Of course, Zhukov had trained as a Cavalryman in the Tsars Army, so he was well up to mastering it.

Perhaps its apocrypal, perhaps not. The fact remains, Stalin ruined Zhukovs career, and essentially kept in him deep freeze for the rest of Stalins life, probably the only time he ever did that with a subordinate. Presumably because he was afraid of his popularity, but also because he suspected he might have need of him again.

Postwar myths originating in Khrushchev era, to make Stalin look petty and Zhukov an 'innocent victim'. 

Stalin never planned to ride a horse during the parade in the first place. Zhukov was lucky that this 'exile' where he commanded an internal military district was all that he got in response for him stealing far beyond what was 'appropriate' and allegedly also claiming responsilibities for victories he didn't have anything to do with. A 'lesser' figure might have been outright executed. 

Edited August 2 by urbanoid

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Postwar myths originating in Khrushchev era, to make Stalin look petty and Zhukov an 'innocent victim'. 

Stalin never planned to ride a horse during the parade in the first place. Zhukov was lucky that this 'exile' where he commanded an internal military district was all that he got in response for him stealing far beyond what was 'appropriate' and allegedly also claiming responsilibities for victories he didn't have anything to do with. A 'lesser' figure might have been outright executed. 

But that misses the point that,

A They didn't need much evidence to execute a General, as the 30s proved. And some of those were some very senior Generals indeed. Tukhachevsky was prominent in the war against Poland and I guess the civil war.

B They didn't execute him. Twice over, if you count his dismissal under Khruschev. Which strongly supports the idea they were putting him a glass cabinet marked 'In case of WW3, break glass.'

Is it true? No idea. But I've seen film footage of Idol, and agree he was highly spirited, riding on a challenging surface. If it's not true, I don't doubt Zhukov believed it.

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, lets DO compare a force, completely surrounded by water and unable to withdraw, fanatical and unwilling to surrender, fighting against the US marine corp, battleships, and the USN Naval Air Arm!  Truly the Glorious Russian Army is Ruski Mir strong, bringing along land battleships and the mighty Kuznetsov battlegroup!

 

The Luzon campaign (1944-1945) saw 420,000 IJA dead and missing vs 72,000 US killed and wounded, a ratio of 5.8 defenders per attacker.

Edited August 2 by glenn239

[RETAC21]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Perhaps its apocrypal, perhaps not. The fact remains, Stalin ruined Zhukovs career, and essentially kept in him deep freeze for the rest of Stalins life, probably the only time he ever did that with a subordinate. 

Hardly. Alexander Novikov, chief of the VVS during the war was imprisioned in 1946 and released only after the death of Stalin. Nikolai Kuznetsov, chief of the Navy, demoted and judged in 1948. Stalin kept his "victors" on a very short leash.

[Roman Alymov]

16 hours ago, glenn239 said:

If you don't want to be challenged, stop posting nonsense about Putin's policy in Ukraine being to surrender.  I find it absurd, I have no idea why you keep saying it, except that I think you are looking for scapegoats that the war you wanted is not proving as easy as you imagined it would be.

I read this piece you posted above.  It comes across as near to total gibberish.  For instance,

And when the "new infantry contingent" is an alloy of enchanting illiquid, diluted by assault specialists of super-valuable (and completely different!) Military specialties are a disaster with a multiplier, or even a degree.

I think I sort of understand what this hyperbolic word mush is saying?  Assaults are costly.  You know my opinion on that one - they need to increase the robotic elements at the point of attack.  Not general mobilization, not word salads, and sure as hell not to allow a politically ambitious type like Strelkov anywhere near real power.

First of all, i have nothing against being challenged - here, in our nordic jungle places, it is normal part of debate. 

Second, what i say is not just my ideas but quite popular point of view in pro-Russian cirecles. If you find it absurd - well, what could i do with it?

Third, i have never imagined easy war etc. (i'm too bored to quite my old post on it, so tale it as it is).

Forth, note this piece was posted in reply to another Member posting edited quotes from it - so i have provided full translation. What is your problem with it?

Fifth, with all the problems of Russian Army - who said NATO armies and UkrArmy are better? For example, here is recent interview by Arestovich where he is saying UkrArmy is on the brink of riot because of high losses and mismanagement of top brass

 

[urbanoid]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But that misses the point that,

A They didn't need much evidence to execute a General, as the 30s proved. And some of those were some very senior Generals indeed. Tukhachevsky was prominent in the war against Poland and I guess the civil war.

B They didn't execute him. Twice over, if you count his dismissal under Khruschev. Which strongly supports the idea they were putting him a glass cabinet marked 'In case of WW3, break glass.'

Is it true? No idea. But I've seen film footage of Idol, and agree he was highly spirited, riding on a challenging surface. If it's not true, I don't doubt Zhukov believed it.

Things you heard about Tukha's alleged genius are also a fabrication from Khrushchev's era, like a 'horse story'.

Other 'prominent commanders' on a level comparable to Zhukov weren't exiled, because they were soldiers first and knew their place, Zhukov started playing politics and Stalin bitchslapped him. His ego couldn't stand it so he started fabricating stories about bad Stalin and his heroic self - obviously after Stalin was safely dead and there was an order from the top to keep such stories coming.

The unofficial agreement (after executing Beria) among the top leadership was not to execute the losers of the power struggle in the future. Khrushchev got rid of Zhukov too (thrown out of all positions while he was abroad), because he wasn't needed anymore and could be dangerous, it was well-known what kind of a snake he was. 

I highly doubt if he would have been needed in WW3, there was a shitload of very capable commanders who, unlike Zhukov, didn't express political ambitions and/or simply weren't obnoxious cunts. 

[ex2cav]

OK, I'm a little confused. What is with the various reports of historical battle casualty figures? Is someone arguing immediate western military (troops, bombs, air forces) intervention on the side of Ukraine?

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

12 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Things you heard about Tukha's alleged genius are also a fabrication from Khrushchev's era, like a 'horse story'.

Other 'prominent commanders' on a level comparable to Zhukov weren't exiled, because they were soldiers first and knew their place, Zhukov started playing politics and Stalin bitchslapped him. His ego couldn't stand it so he started fabricating stories about bad Stalin and his heroic self - obviously after Stalin was safely dead and there was an order from the top to keep such stories coming.

The unofficial agreement (after executing Beria) among the top leadership was not to execute the losers of the power struggle in the future. Khrushchev got rid of Zhukov too (thrown out of all positions while he was abroad), because he wasn't needed anymore and could be dangerous, it was well-known what kind of a snake he was. 

I highly doubt if he would have been needed in WW3, there was a shitload of very capable commanders who, unlike Zhukov, didn't express political ambitions and/or simply weren't obnoxious cunts. 

Don't think so. Whilst he did borrow liberally from other people coming up with the concepts, he recognised it worked, he stitched it all together, and took the fatal risk of putting his name on it. Deep battle worked,they subsequently built on  it and proved it. Oh sure, he was half crazy, and the army played him up to point to stalins transgressions. But Glantz regarded his work, and I see no reason to doubt him.

Zhukov had an ego. I think he even latterly admitted it. But Stalin had killed so many prominent Generals, I find it unconvincing  that exile was not an actual effort to keep him on hand. He was too easy to kill, they all were.