Kiev Is Burning

[Yama]

8 hours ago, glenn239 said:

So my advice would be for you to pile on to Ssnake's current line with Murph, to the effect that the Americans should fight an avoidable war now in order to not have to fight an avoidable war later.

All wars are avoidable, there is always option to surrender. But if you want to avoid THAT, then you have to fight at some point. Often, it is better to fight early on and get that done.

[Markus Becker]

14 hours ago, Murph said:

Nope you are right, I am tired of defending Europe and the rest of the world while my own country falls apart and we get lectured by the Intelligentsia how we have to be more "inclusive" etc. 

You aren't, Ukraine is. But if Ukraine falls and the P team continues you might be. So how about not letting it get to this point?

[BansheeOne]

1 hour ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Everyone agreed that the Islamic State must be stopped immediately and consistently.

Why do some here agree that an old communist KGB officer of Stalin's style would so easily make his wet dreams of Great Russia within the borders of 1914 a reality? And for that walking away over hundreds of thousands of corpses as if it were some joke on the fringes of world history? 

Because in the finest KGB tradition of communist sedition, they seized upon Western cultural-political divisions to portray their re-imagined self as an ally to the masses downtrodden by the capitalist-imperialist-globalist elites, and succeeded beyond their wildest expectations by getting a US president they thought they recruited all the way back in 1987 (though it's not clear whether the guy had the mental faculties to know he had been recruited), then convinced him it was actually Ukraine meddling in US elections and stealing his victory, which subsequently became an article of faith among his cultists who on the way picked up on the great Marxist-Leninist philosophy of dialectic materialism, whereby they're now able to believe at the same time that denying the statehood of your neighbor because you claim his territory as your ancestral land, calling to eradicate his culture in official media and slaughtering entire villages is a genocidal war of aggression if done by people you don't like, but a legitimate act of self-defense against imperialism if done by your political allies? 😉

[Josh]

9 hours ago, glenn239 said:

The Americans are supporting Ukraine.  It's not working.

it’s working fine. The Russians aren’t making significant progress and are exhausting any new formations, ordnance, and equipment as fast as they are produced. The only reason Ukraine is under threat is because Republicans are holding its ammunition hostage for domestic reasons. But even if the GOP ultimately throws them under the bus, the US goal of weakening Russia has been accomplished.

 

9 hours ago, glenn239 said:

You need to understand that the United States is a bit like a rock star, at sea and uncertain who to trust, with groupies, pushers, and hustlers coming on over the phone.  What they do not lack  for is "allies" that actually just want to employ American strength for their own drama.  Ukraine is such an ally.  Many Americans sense that plenty of these "allies" are purely manipulative, trying to convince Americans that their interests are engaged when American interests are, in fact, not engaged.

I would argue if anything, Ukraine is being used. See above.

[Rick]

44 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Because in the finest KGB tradition of communist sedition, they seized upon Western cultural-political divisions to portray their re-imagined self as an ally to the masses downtrodden by the capitalist-imperialist-globalist elites, and succeeded beyond their wildest expectations by getting a US president they thought they recruited all the way back in 1987 (though it's not clear whether the guy had the mental faculties to know he had been recruited), then convinced him it was actually Ukraine meddling in US elections and stealing his victory, which subsequently became an article of faith among his cultists who on the way picked up on the great Marxist-Leninist philosophy of dialectic materialism, whereby they're now able to believe at the same time that denying the statehood of your neighbor because you claim his territory as your ancestral land, calling to eradicate his culture in official media and slaughtering entire villages is a genocidal war of aggression if done by people you don't like, but a legitimate act of self-defense against imperialism if done by your political allies? 😉

Not meaning this as a personal insult, but you just missed your calling as either a sociology professor or a politician 

[sunday]

In the finest tradition of German demagoguery, going back to Martin Luther, yes.

Edited December 13, 2023 by sunday

[ink]

24 minutes ago, Josh said:

I would argue if anything, Ukraine is being used. See above.

That's what I've been saying all along. More to the point, that's what I've heard from many a cynical Ukrainian.

It's all that old Great Game™️ shit but taken to a whole new level.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, apparently there were still a few things he didnt screw up last time, so there is still  work to be done. Apparently he is trying to talk the Americans into further helping Ukraine. So thats them fucked then. 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, BansheeOne said:

Because in the finest KGB tradition of communist sedition, they seized upon Western cultural-political divisions to portray their re-imagined self as an ally to the masses downtrodden by the capitalist-imperialist-globalist elites, and succeeded beyond their wildest expectations by getting a US president they thought they recruited all the way back in 1987 (though it's not clear whether the guy had the mental faculties to know he had been recruited), then convinced him it was actually Ukraine meddling in US elections and stealing his victory, which subsequently became an article of faith among his cultists who on the way picked up on the great Marxist-Leninist philosophy of dialectic materialism, whereby they're now able to believe at the same time that denying the statehood of your neighbor because you claim his territory as your ancestral land, calling to eradicate his culture in official media and slaughtering entire villages is a genocidal war of aggression if done by people you don't like, but a legitimate act of self-defense against imperialism if done by your political allies? 😉

To be fair, I think a golden shower would confuse anyone whether it was a genuine KGB recruitment opportunity, or whether they were just testing whether it was really an orange tan or not....

Im still fairly stumped on how a nation, that has paraded its anti imperialism hard on for the past 200 years, suddenly goes all gooey eyed for someone whom is, at core, an Imperialist. If Americans are somehow imagining Putin as a guy who gets stuff done, I can only imagine its with the same kind of cluelessness that Europe once admired Mussolini for getting the trains running on time.

[ink]

39 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

 

Im still fairly stumped on how a nation, that has paraded its anti imperialism hard on for the past 200 years

Hi Stuart, have you met the US?

You're going to find their history of imperialism fascinating, once you get stuck in.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Without wanting to get too far into that, and I'm of course aware of the Indian wars and the Mexican wars,  I reflect its a rather different matter to be doing something yourself, but finding it a fault in others.

The Americans never had a problem pointing to Imperialism in others, whether it was the European Empires, the Chicom one, or the Soviet one. What is new territory is batting their eyelids and either seeing something in Putin to admire at worst, or at best, somehow deciding it isnt their problem because everyone else can go fuck themselves.

At heart, I think the problem is that Americans still cannot quite grasp how interconnected the world is, how their own economy depends heavily on trade with other nations. In the 1980's, the Boeing 767 had something like 60 percent of its parts sourced elsewhere. This idea that America can draw down the shutters and withdraw to a strategic hinterland is very cosy, but wasnt true in WW2. Its surely even less true in the era of the ICBM or the Internet.

For all the effort to improve communications, I reflect its done really very little to help people listen.

[Josh]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

To be fair, I think a golden shower would confuse anyone whether it was a genuine KGB recruitment opportunity, or whether they were just testing whether it was really an orange tan or not....

Im still fairly stumped on how a nation, that has paraded its anti imperialism hard on for the past 200 years, suddenly goes all gooey eyed for someone whom is, at core, an Imperialist. If Americans are somehow imagining Putin as a guy who gets stuff done, I can only imagine its with the same kind of cluelessness that Europe once admired Mussolini for getting the trains running on time.

My guess is that social conservatives in the U.S. like foreign politicians who are also social conservatives. Orban and Putin are very anti gay, “family values” types. Being white obviously helps. If you view the natural/proper state of a society as being heterosexual and Christian, then it is easy to adopt a the-sky-is-falling mentality given global changing societal attitudes, and you look for allies where ever you can find them.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Josh

[Josh]

24 minutes ago, ink said:

Hi Stuart, have you met the US?

You're going to find their history of imperialism fascinating, once you get stuck in.

US history is fairly uninterrupted imperialism that occasionally is so localized (and geographically separated from European imperialism) that it  is explained away as being isolationist.

[ink]

21 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I reflect its a rather different matter to be doing something yourself, but finding it a fault in others.

Ain't that the truth 😄

[ink]

5 minutes ago, Josh said:

US history is fairly uninterrupted imperialism that occasionally is so localized (and geographically separated from European imperialism) that it  is explained away as being isolationist.

Aye, indeed it is.

[ink]

23 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

This idea that America can draw down the shutters and withdraw to a strategic hinterland is very cosy, but wasnt true in WW2. Its surely even less true in the era of the ICBM or the Internet.

It's hard being number one. No one ever holds that spot for too long. People forget what made them rich and start arguing over the riches themselves. Also, when ordinary folks are dissatisfied (and they usually are) it's easy to manipulate them into supporting all kinds of things... And when that's easy, playing at politics like it's a game of winners and losers becomes easy too.

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 minutes ago, Josh said:

My guess is that social conservatives in the U.S. like foreign politicians who are also social conservatives. Orban and Putin are very anti gay, “family values” types. Being white obviously helps. If you view the natural/proper state of a society as being heterosexual and Christian, then it is easy to adopt a the-sky-is-falling attitude given global changing societal attitudes, and you look for allies where ever you can find them.

Yeah, I can see how that makes sense.

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Oh, you still havent figured it out yet have you? Here, let me browbeat some sense into you. Where did I put that tyre Iron.

<snip>

 

You and I both believe the same thing - that Ukraine is on track to lose this war.   I thought that would be the case 10 years before the war broke out, while you seem to have only come around to the obvious after hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are dead.  

Now, without missing a beat, you continue with your hustle, not because you believe a word you are saying, but because you understand that unless the US gets into this war, Ukraine will lose. 

[sunday]

There were a series of wargames done by some think-tank or another, showing that US intervention would lead to global thermonuclear war.

Now, what is the proper stance to take when confronting a death cult?

[glenn239]

4 hours ago, Yama said:

All wars are avoidable, there is always option to surrender. But if you want to avoid THAT, then you have to fight at some point. Often, it is better to fight early on and get that done.

What you are saying is that the Americans should assure a 100% chance of a nuclear war now in order to avoid a 1% chance later. 

The old saying "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" came about because throughout history, hustlers, hysterics and fools have been insisting upon the certainty of things that are not certain. 

[glenn239]

3 hours ago, Josh said:

I would argue if anything, Ukraine is being used. See above.

I agree with this, Biden has used Ukraine and Zelensky did lie to his own people as to his intentions towards Russia, and they voted for him on the basis of him doing one thing (Minsk) when in fact he intended to do the opposite, (a military offensive to crush the rebels).    

[Markus Becker]

3 hours ago, Rick said:

Not meaning this as a personal insult, but you just missed your calling as either a sociology professor or a politician 

He used to work for politicians.

[Ssnake]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

To be fair, I think a golden shower would confuse anyone whether it was a genuine KGB recruitment opportunity, or whether they were just testing whether it was really an orange tan or not...

For someone who claims to see through all of the Russian disinformation bullshit, you really seem to cling to this one.

[txtree99]

Key Takeaways:

US intelligence reportedly assessed that Russian offensive operations in eastern Ukraine in fall 2023 and through the upcoming winter aim to weaken Western support for Ukraine instead of achieving any immediate operational objectives.

Russian forces may be conducting costly offensive operations at a time unfavorable for ground maneuver to time the potential shift in battlefield initiative with ongoing conversations in the West about continued support to Ukraine.

US intelligence also assessed that the war in Ukraine has devastated the pre-war Russian military, although Russia has partially offset these losses and continues to prepare for a long war in Ukraine.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky met with various US officials, including President Joe Biden, and spoke to Congress about US military assistance to Ukraine in Washington, DC on December 12.

Russian forces conducted a series of drone and missile strikes targeting Ukraine on December 12.

Ukrainian officials stated that Russian special services may have conducted the major cyberattack on Ukrainian mobile operator Kyivstar on December 12.

The Ukrainian Main Military Intelligence Directorate (GUR) reported that GUR cyber units recently conducted a successful cyber operation against the Russian Federal Tax Service (FNS).

Russian news outlet RBK reported that Russian President Vladimir Putin has designated prominent Russian milbloggers as “trusted persons” in his presidential election campaign for the first time.

A St. Petersburg court sentenced three underage Uzbek migrants and their parents to deportation for extinguishing the Eternal Flame in St. Petersburg amid ongoing tension between Central Asian communities in Russia and Russian authorities.

Russian forces conducted offensive operations along the Kupyansk-Svatove-Kreminna line, near Bakhmut, near Avdiivka, west and southwest of Donetsk City, in the Donetsk-Zaporizhia Oblast border area, and in western Zaporizhia Oblast on December 12 and advanced in some areas.

The Russian State Duma adopted a series of laws on December 12 to help further bolster Rosgvardia’s and the Federal Security Service’s (FSB) force generation capacity.

Russian occupation authorities continue to use the Kremlin-funded pseudo-volunteer “Dvizheniye Pervykh” (Movement of the First) youth organization to indoctrinate Ukrainian youth in occupied Ukraine with Russian and cultural national identities.
 

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-december-12-2023

[ink]

46 minutes ago, sunday said:

There were a series of wargames done by some think-tank or another, showing that US intervention would lead to global thermonuclear war.

Think tanks of all flavours usually don't do unbiased objective wargaming. So, there's always the danger they got the result they wanted.

Not that I'm saying they're wrong, necessarily. Just that caution is advised when quoting them.