Kiev Is Burning

[R011]

5 hours ago, Murph said:

We have been involved in too many wars that we should never have gotten involved in over the last 100+ years.  We have spent vast sums of money of Nato so that Europe can have a nice socialist standard of living.  What could that money have done for the US?  We fought in Vietnam when we should have learned from the French, Iraq, Afghanistan, 17 years too long, we should have done the classic British Empire "butcher and bolt".  To many wars we should never have fought.  Somewhere, and I cannot remember where I read it, Churchill was ecstatic over both WWI and WWII US involvement, and the British Maskirovka for leading the US into wars worked very very well.  FDR violated neutrality by sending lawyers, guns and money to the UK, since like most Democrats he saw a way for his donors to make money, plus he was increasingly unpopular and looked to maybe lose the 1940 election, so he lied.  FDR was renowned for his mendacity.

Ukraine is not our war, maybe it is a European war, then Europe needs to get off its collective posteriors and actually spend some of the wonderful socialist money defending themselves instead of wanting the US to provide 50+% as normal.  

The British didn't write the Zimmerman Telegram or trick the Germans into admitting it was genuine.  The British didn't cause the Axis Powers to announce they wanted to take over the world and then try to do it and, as noted, didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.  The British didn't invent Einsatzgruppen or invent Japanese war crimes.

And no, FDR was not at all close to losing the 1940 election and most of the people making money from arms sales to the Allies were Big Business Republicans who really disliked the Democrats pro-union, anti-business domestic agenda.

 

As for Churchill being happy, well yeah.   Why wouldn't he be?  He wasn't an idiot.

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

And you have FAR more experience with the Russians and their...proclivities than I ever will.  I just think the constant farking with Russia is stupid, contain them, and let Putin keep stealing.  Ukraine? I have to hold my nose and really really control my disgust since in my mind the Ukrainian government is no better than Putin's Russia.  I have no issue with Nato defending the Baltic states since the have been Russia's chew toy for a very long time.  Ukraine, the only reason we are doing anything for them is that they have paid the Bidens and Vindman very very well over the years.  

Wouldn't you rather have the Ukrainians dying to stop Russia there before Americans have to die to stop them in the Baltics or Poland?

And if Biden and Vindman are the only reasons the US is helping Ukraine, why are the others doing so too?  Why was Trump sending trainers and weapons to Ukraine?

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

And I cannot disagree with that since we were attacked by the Japanese.  If Hitler had not declared war, there would have been no interest in attacking Germany despite FDR desperately wanting to get into that war.  Also the US backed Japan into a corner in their mind with the embargo.  Churchill wrote that when Pearl Harbor happened he slept well since the US was now in the war.  

I'm pretty confident that Germany would have given the US a cassus belli within the year.  It was in their nature at the time.  And japan backed themselves into that corner with their brutal aggression in Asia and alliance with Hitler.

[futon]

11 minutes ago, R011 said:

The British didn't write the Zimmerman Telegram or trick the Germans into admitting it was genuine.  The British didn't cause the Axis Powers to announce they wanted to take over the world and then try to do it and, as noted, didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.  The British didn't invent Einsatzgruppen or invent Japanese war crimes.

 

Detailed analysis on other things but always the dumbdowned statements related to the PH attack. The results of war propaganda and post-war narrative's exercise of victor-writes-history is a sight to behold. 

[futon]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

I'm pretty confident that Germany would have given the US a cassus belli within the year.  It was in their nature at the time.  And japan backed themselves into that corner with their brutal aggression in Asia and alliance with Hitler.

CkS's Nationalists Chinese were begging Germany to not leave its partnership back in late 1937. Even simply better Naval Treaty terms and the US not doing the duel not-recognize-Manchukuo/Recognize SU alone may have been enough to keep some in Japan from finding Germany attractive and less negative view  on the US.. even by people like Tojo.

[R011]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

Stuart, he is less offensive than Zelenskyy by a long stretch.  

How so?  A sfar as I can tell, no substanbtive allegations of serious corruption have been made against him.  There have been some clumsy fraudulent attempts to smear him, like the yachts he supposedly bought that are still for sale with the documentation claiming he was buying them an obvious forgery.

[futon]

53 minutes ago, R011 said:

... or invent Japanese war crimes.

...

And there are crimes going all around. China during warlord period and civil war prior the the start of the second sino-Japanese war was full of atocity stuff, or bandit-ridden Manchuria after the collapse of the Fangtien Clique. This wasn't Europe with paved roads all over the place. And even when the Second-Sino Japanese war got going, on the Chinese side, there was the forced soldier recruitment program which apparantly that by itself killed 1,000s or 10,000s of Chinese, or way more, at any rate, despite war against Japan, collective motivation wasn't that high. They robbed Chinese farms just like the Japanese did. And can't forget CKS's order to flood of the Yellow River, killing many times more Chinese than the Nanking Massacre (which by the way, the surrender army didn't put up hands and a white flag as they were ordered to fight to the bitter end in that tactically very poor situation, they removed uniforms and scattered into the civilian population -- there are caveats to the Nanking Massacre that you damn know well because of past discussions). A flooding river is obviously going to be indiscriminate. The impact of that to the locals was so much that when CKS's Nationalists Chinese army moved into the area in 1944 to counter the first phase of Operation Ichi-Go, the local Chinese shot at the Nationalists Chinese army. 

So then despite all that and despite the atrocities of the war in mainland China, as the war came to a close, CKS was apparantly actually considering keeping the IJA in China to help in dealing with the Chinese Communists (who contributed little in comparison to CKS's Nationalists Chinese to only recover and build up their forces for the fight against the Nationalists Chinese.. as you know, ja). But evul Japs must be disarmed!! Long live the CCP! .. and Fat-Kims

 

No! duh duh Japn a'tackedz Pearl Harbor! duh uh Nanking! I getz history medal of gold. End of da story

Edited December 13, 2023 by futon

[bojan]

Grow up.

[futon]

Just now, bojan said:

Grow up.

Exactly.

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

b. The whole point of supporting Ukraine is, someone else is fighting a war so American troops won't be needed in a conflict with Russia in a not too distant future

The Americans are supporting Ukraine.  It's not working.

Quote

I don't think that concern over the well-being of the US is your true motive.

You need to understand that the United States is a bit like a rock star, at sea and uncertain who to trust, with groupies, pushers, and hustlers coming on over the phone.  What they do not lack  for is "allies" that actually just want to employ American strength for their own drama.  Ukraine is such an ally.  Many Americans sense that plenty of these "allies" are purely manipulative, trying to convince Americans that their interests are engaged when American interests are, in fact, not engaged.

Edited December 13, 2023 by glenn239

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

Wouldn't you rather have the Ukrainians dying to stop Russia there before Americans have to die to stop them in the Baltics or Poland?

At the risk of confusing Stefan even more, I think if Russia defeats Ukraine they will not invade either Poland or the Baltic States in the aftermath.  My guess would be that they will try to tempt Poland into territorial shenanigans of their own in Western Ukraine, and like Stuart, you will have to endure the unbearable burden of watching in real time as Putin 'gets away with it'.

So my advice would be for you to pile on to Ssnake's current line with Murph, to the effect that the Americans should fight an avoidable war now in order to not have to fight an avoidable war later.

[sunday]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

Wouldn't you rather have the Ukrainians dying to stop Russia there before Americans have to die to stop them in the Baltics or Poland?

Not if the Ukrainians deaths are not enough to stop Russia.

Reminds me a bit of the plight of the Poles in WWII, much heroism fighting against the Nazis, only to suffer treachery -or a case of Realpolitik- at the hands of the Western allies, leading to a Poland under Stalin's boot at the end of the war.

[Roman Alymov]

10 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

We will send you Boris Johnson, its about what you deserve.

I think we Russians allready owe Boris Johnson some sort of memorial for not allowing "collective Putin" to proceed with capitulation agreement in the spring of 2022 (as we now know, Russian delegation was even ready to discuss the status of Crimea). It was really political genius decision to force Russian elite (de-facto comprador colonial administration of the West) into what they now acknowlege to be national liberation war (of course they are not saying they were colonial administration).

[mkenny]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

 

Reminds me a bit of the plight of the Poles in WWII, much heroism fighting against the Nazis, only to suffer treachery -or a case of Realpolitik- at the hands of the Western allies, leading to a Poland under Stalin's boot at the end of the war.

 The UK fully discharged all its pre-war treaty obligations to Poland in 1945.  

[seahawk]

9 hours ago, Josh said:

They are important in that they are NATO members, and leaving them undefended or otherwise not contesting their seizure could undo the entire alliance. I'll grant you that their membership in NATO was a mistake - logistically, it is just a bridge too far, and I think NATO should have not extended its flank to such an exposed position. But here we are now. Funding and equipping Ukraine is a simple, relatively inexpensive way to keep Russia from crossing its border in other places.

Is NATO important for the USA? Imho the USA has two big problems and that is illegal immigration of undesirable elements and a society that is about to kill everything that made America great. The big fight for the Americans is to stop and reverse immigration and to destroy socialism. Ukraine is just another scam to fill the the pockets of the military industrial complex with absolutely no importance for any US citizen. NATO is even worse, as US citizens pay for the defence of Europeans that steal US jobs.

[bd1]

10 hours ago, Murph said:

Stuart, he is less offensive than Zelenskyy by a long stretch.  

btw, about a year ago i wrote about that in this thread -   my wife has been making camo nets with ukrainian refugees for about 1 1/2 years now , and when she asked about Zelensky , locals had relatively good opinion about him - he was the first one who ever really fought against corruption in Ukraine.  and that opinion was confirmed by crazyinsane105´s wife, who is from Ukraine. 

i don´t know  if any of these allegations about him buying yachts are true , or just russian propaganda and reposts by fellow travellers in america and elsewhere. 

i also know that you will read this , nod to yourself , write something and again return in 2-3 months with the same allegations anyway. 😃 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, bd1 said:

btw, about a year ago i wrote about that in this thread -   my wife has been making camo nets with ukrainian refugees for about 1 1/2 years now , and when she asked about Zelensky , locals had relatively good opinion about him - he was the first one who ever really fought against corruption in Ukraine.  and that opinion was confirmed by crazyinsane105´s wife, who is from Ukraine. 

i don´t know  if any of these allegations about him buying yachts are true , or just russian propaganda and reposts by fellow travellers in america and elsewhere. 

i also know that you will read this , nod to yourself , write something and again return in 2-3 months with the same allegations anyway. 😃 

 

 

In the end, a belief system is only as good as the information you put in it. If you listen to people here, by and large you can get a pretty good picture on things. If you restrict yourself to a diet of Fox News and alt right news as some on here clearly do, you are crippling yourself. And its embarrassing to see how many otherwise incredibly smart people, really know diddly squat about whats happening in Europe right now. And just like 1930's Germany some, seem to be really going out of their way NOT to know.

I think the Yachts are just pro Russian propaganda horseshit. Like he has enough time to go yachting in the middle of a fucking war.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

6 hours ago, sunday said:

Not if the Ukrainians deaths are not enough to stop Russia.

Reminds me a bit of the plight of the Poles in WWII, much heroism fighting against the Nazis, only to suffer treachery -or a case of Realpolitik- at the hands of the Western allies, leading to a Poland under Stalin's boot at the end of the war.

I bet you are really heartbroken that Franco didnt come to their aid.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

6 hours ago, glenn239 said:

At the risk of confusing Stefan even more, I think if Russia defeats Ukraine they will not invade either Poland or the Baltic States in the aftermath.  My guess would be that they will try to tempt Poland into territorial shenanigans of their own in Western Ukraine, and like Stuart, you will have to endure the unbearable burden of watching in real time as Putin 'gets away with it'.

So my advice would be for you to pile on to Ssnake's current line with Murph, to the effect that the Americans should fight an avoidable war now in order to not have to fight an avoidable war later.

Oh, you still havent figured it out yet have you? Here, let me browbeat some sense into you. Where did I put that tyre Iron.

If Ukraine goes, Transnistria goes.

If Ukraine goes, Belarus goes.

Suddenly the Central Asian states fall back into line, along with their oil revenue, when they figure out what they have on the border, and nobody left to save them.

And suddenly you have the USSR back, minus the communism. Just as Putin has always wanted.

Then he is going to make demands to have a territorial bridge with Kaliningrad. And suddenly smart men like yourself are going to say we should be throwing Poland under the bus as well, just so they can continue to enjoy the overly priviledged lifestyle they have been enjoying. And fuck the suffering the peoples of Eastern Europe will suffer under Putin's tyranical yoke.

Putin has been 'getting away with it' since 2000. Im phlegmatic, because Ive long consoled myself to being Tanknets Cassandra. What about you Glenn? Have you resigned youself to never recognising when other people are right? Im sure I have a mild case of Aspbergers myself, but at least I can recognise when other people talk sense. You should try it sometime, its revelatory.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

I think we Russians allready owe Boris Johnson some sort of memorial for not allowing "collective Putin" to proceed with capitulation agreement in the spring of 2022 (as we now know, Russian delegation was even ready to discuss the status of Crimea). It was really political genius decision to force Russian elite (de-facto comprador colonial administration of the West) into what they now acknowlege to be national liberation war (of course they are not saying they were colonial administration).

Yes, daily we thank the strategic genius of the man that gave us Brexit. Why, every day at the supermarket with food costing far more than it did, i just want to fall to my knees and kiss his holy feet.

Yeah, like anyone convinced a Russian to do anything they didnt want to do. What a joke.

[Stefan Kotsch]

Everyone agreed that the Islamic State must be stopped immediately and consistently.

Why do some here agree that an old communist KGB officer of Stalin's style would so easily make his wet dreams of Great Russia within the borders of 1914 a reality? And for that walking away over hundreds of thousands of corpses as if it were some joke on the fringes of world history? 

[Perun]

37 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If Ukraine goes, Transnistria goes.

If Ukraine goes, Belarus goes.

Pridnestrovie is under Russian influence.

Belarus is under Russian influence.

Central Asia is under Russian influence.

[Stuart Galbraith]

32 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Everyone agreed that the Islamic State must be stopped immediately and consistently.

Why do some here agree that an old communist KGB officer of Stalin's style would so easily make his wet dreams of Great Russia within the borders of 1914 a reality? And for that walking away over hundreds of thousands of corpses as if it were some joke on the fringes of world history? 

They agree presumably because their chosen news provider tells them its the right choice. I dont know why their news provider sells that narrative, its either its because they are insufferable assholes who sell whatever they think will make the most money, or its because they think the global chaos of selling out to fascists will somehow enable their wet dream world to come to pass.

As for why people want to listen to that shit, Im sure good people went and read Der Stürmer or Völkischer Beobachter, or latterly Pravda or Tass. It doesnt necessarily reflect on them. But even then, they had the alternative to not adopt or believe everything they were saying. Im sure even when you are living in the Workers paradise, you didnt choose to accept everything you were told.

if there is a really worrying trend in the 21st century, its an inability for people to not employ their own internal logic, and question what they hear, but instead dive into it and adopt ideas and concepts wholesale, even when they are obviously ludicrous. I find that incomprehensible. For my part, I generally look to see where everyone else is running, and strive to run in the opposite direction. Im not always right, but at least its easier to breathe.

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, Perun said:

Pridnestrovie is under Russian influence.

Belarus is under Russian influence.

Central Asia is under Russian influence.

 

And its under no circumstances whatsoever that Putin would want to tighten that influence to central control, either through a mania for power and influence (or even a self admitted hard on for the USSR), or just to satisfy his Kleptocratic friends?  After having denied wanting to do just that  in Ukraine after invading Crimea (read the Crimean address) and then openly admitting thats precisely what he wanted to do in the news item 9 years later that got released the day after the Invasion? Tell me Perun, do you still believe in Santa Claus?

I look at who Putin is, what he has done, whom he has killed, where he has invaded. People trying to sell the idea he is just going to be satisfied with his immediate territorial concerns and there will be no more, really need to stop and reflect on history. And Im going to laugh at them till they do.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Yama]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, daily we thank the strategic genius of the man that gave us Brexit. Why, every day at the supermarket with food costing far more than it did, i just want to fall to my knees and kiss his holy feet.

Well, I already knew you liked Cameron... 

But great news, I heard he's back!